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Should the Changing Paradigm in Turkey be a warning to the West?

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International10

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From post WWI through about 2000 Turkey was for all intents and purposes as close as a non-europeon country has come to being a liberal western democracy; however, beginning with the ascendency of Recep Erdogan, around the year 2000, The Islamic AKP party, has radically changed the paradigm in Turkey. This is in large part due to the shifting demographics of the country. Modern western looking communities in the western part of the country were simply not as fertile as the more Islamic eastern part of the country. For lack of a better phrase, there are simply more conservative Muslims than there used to be.

Here are just a few examples to give you a picture of how Turkish society is changing:
  1. Islamic religious schools are replacing secular universities,
  2. a crack-down on the consumption of alcohol, bars, and nightclubs
  3. A revival of rampant homophobia in a country that was otherwise progressing along with Europe on this issue.
  4. the reinstatement of the Hijab in schools and government institutions
  5. and the general ostracization of essentially anyone involved in public life who doesn't play along with the rise of conservative Islamic AKP party in the country.

So my question is whether this should be a warning to western Europe as the Muslim population is set to rise dramatically there over the next few decades (especially in France)? Is conservative Islam compatible with modern secular liberalism in the west? To put it another way, Can a majority Muslim country embrace modern liberal values?
 
AKP is not an Islamist party. It's a quasi-Islamic, Erdogan-centric party that panders to Islamic voters for their support.

Edit: Just like many other Western conservative parties that cuddle up to fundamentalists and evangelicals.
 
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brothern said:
AKP is not an Islamist party. It's a quasi-Islamic, Erdogan-centric party that panders to Islamic voters for their support.

Edit: Just like many other Western conservative parties that cuddle up to fundamentalists and evangelicals.
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I dont disagree with anything you said. It seems you just misinterpreted the intent of my original post.

I think an important distinction is that evangelisism has been on the decline in America for a long time which has translated to greater progress on social issues. Alternatively islam is set for a dramatic rise globally and in the west.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world | Pew Research Center
 
Comparing Turkey (always Muslim despite the secular veneer) to a Western country (like, for instance, France) doesn't cut it.

And the Muslim population of Western countries rising dramatically over the next decades is at best conjecture.

As is, subsequently, the implied scenario of their becoming Muslim majority countries.
 
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International10 said:
I dont disagree with anything you said. It seems you just misinterpreted the intent of my original post.

I think an important distinction is that evangelisism has been on the decline in America for a long time which has translated to greater progress on social issues. Alternatively islam is set for a dramatic rise globally and in the west.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world | Pew Research Center
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The figures presented do not support the offered thesis.

Not for Europe and even less for the US.
 
Chagos said:
The figures presented do not support the offered thesis.

Not for Europe and even less for the US.
Click to expand...

I could see how you could come to that conclusion. Europe (if we include eastern europe) is a long way from becoming a majority muslim contient as a whole. By 2050 the Muslim population will only have reached 10%. And obviously the US is not even implicated in this conversation. The misinterpretation you are making comes from viewing the pew research report's data as if Muslim immigrants were migrating to Europe as a whole. However, a vastly disproportiante share are migrating to just a couple of countries (Sweden and France) being two of the most problematic. For example, while France as a whole is only 12% muslim, 25% of French people 18 years old or under identify as Muslim (the result of disporportiate birth rates).
EXCLUSIF. Ces collégiens qui placent la religion avant l'école : l'étude qui accuse - 3 février 2016 - L'Obs


Europeon passivity on this issue is very comparable to American passivity on global warming. Paradigm changing trends are slow moving and hard to get a handle on.

On a side note. Regardless of whether you think Europe will ever face shifting demographics in the decades to come, do you think if it were, that it would be a positive?
 
Chagos said:
Comparing Turkey (always Muslim despite the secular veneer) to a Western country (like, for instance, France) doesn't cut it.

And the Muslim population of Western countries rising dramatically over the next decades is at best conjecture.

As is, subsequently, the implied scenario of their becoming Muslim majority countries.
Click to expand...

This is rather conclusory. Thank you for communicating your clearly subjective opinion on modern Turkish demographics/politics.
 
International10 said:
~...............On a side note. Regardless of whether you think Europe will ever face shifting demographics in the decades to come, do you think if it were, that it would be a positive?
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to cut thru all the claptrap, the obvious and only thinly veiled intention to propagate the tedious mantra of "eevull Islam is coming to get us all " fails.

Main thing is for that simple truth to be established, what I think of any assumed shift in demographics is totally irrelevant in the light of this far more pertinent fact.

To summarize, the scenario propagated in the OP is balderdash.

Whole thread would probably have been better of in "religion and politics", together with all the other xenophobic rants that have a home there.
 
Chagos said:
to cut thru all the claptrap, the obvious and only thinly veiled intention to propagate the tedious mantra of "eevull Islam is coming to get us all " fails.

Main thing is for that simple truth to be established, what I think of any assumed shift in demographics is totally irrelevant in the light of this far more pertinent fact.

To summarize, the scenario propagated in the OP is balderdash.

Whole thread would probably have been better of in "religion and politics", together with all the other xenophobic rants that have a home there.
Click to expand...

Who is saying Islam is "evil." I hardly think of any religion as "evil" so much as think of them as barriers to social progress. I am hardly suggesting that France is going to be Saudi Arabia by 2050 but rather that these demographic trends may lead to diminished progress and general social well-being. If nothing else disparate culture clashes that result from distinct populations mixing too quickly is already harboring worrying results. Not just with an increase in terrorist attacks in Europe over the past few years but also a rise in dangerous populism.

You clearly seem to be an idealogue unable to support your conclusions through fact or logic but rather some sense of transcendent morality that requires neither.
 
International10 said:
This is rather conclusory. Thank you for communicating your clearly subjective opinion on modern Turkish demographics/politics.
Click to expand...
You're welcome in that, subjective, objective or adjective, I'm always glad to help others with whatever deficits of knowledge they possess on issues they spout forth over.

In the spirit of which it might also help you to realize that, where "adjective" is concerned, your presented thesis is false. And by that I do not mean what you offer as insight on Turkish demographics, seeing how that was clearly not your primary aim.

I indeed know that I already said that (regarding your European doomsday scenario) but sometimes these things need repeating.
 
Chagos said:
You're welcome in that, subjective, objective or adjective, I'm always glad to help others with whatever deficits of knowledge they possess on issues they spout forth over.

In the spirit of which it might also help you to realize that, where "adjective" is concerned, your presented thesis is false. And by that I do not mean what you offer as insight on Turkish demographics, seeing how that was clearly not your primary aim.

I indeed know that I already said that (regarding your European doomsday scenario) but sometimes these things need repeating.
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As articulated I would hardly call it a "doomsday" scenario but I think you answered my question about how you feel about a rising Islamic population. You clearly see it as a "doomsday" scenario if it were to happen.

I on the other hand see it as being a much more marginal problem for a whole troth of reasons other than some armageddon as you seem to think it would be.
 
International10 said:
Who is saying Islam is "evil." I hardly think of any religion as "evil" so much as think of them as barriers to social progress. I am hardly suggesting that France is going to be Saudi Arabia by 2050 but rather that these demographic trends may lead to diminished progress and general social well-being. If nothing else disparate culture clashes that result from distinct populations mixing too quickly is already harboring worrying results. Not just with an increase in terrorist attacks in Europe over the past few years but also a rise in dangerous populism.

You clearly seem to be an idealogue unable to support your conclusions through fact or logic but rather some sense of transcendent morality that requires neither.
Click to expand...
Let me guess, while typing that last sentence, you were looking into a mirror.

Well, as ad hominems go, they don't do much in alleviating projection.

You're welcome.
 
Chagos said:
Let me guess, while typing that last sentence, you were looking into a mirror.

Well, as ad hominems go, they don't do much in alleviating projection.

You're welcome.
Click to expand...

This is the most long winded version of "I know you are but what am I" that I have ever come across.
 
International10 said:
~............. You clearly see it as ..........~
Click to expand...
I've clearly stated what I see and no amount of your attempting to spin it into what fits your convenience or garnishing it with whatever assumptions you wish to make over what I think, can serve to change what I wrote.
International10 said:
This is the most long winded version of "I know you are but what am I" that I have ever come across.
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as I said, mirror, mirror.

And now you'll simply have to gish gallop solo, seeing how I'll make no more time for this nonsense.
 
International10 said:
From post WWI through about 2000 Turkey was for all intents and purposes as close as a non-europeon country has come to being a liberal western democracy; however, beginning with the ascendency of Recep Erdogan, around the year 2000, The Islamic AKP party, has radically changed the paradigm in Turkey. This is in large part due to the shifting demographics of the country. Modern western looking communities in the western part of the country were simply not as fertile as the more Islamic eastern part of the country. For lack of a better phrase, there are simply more conservative Muslims than there used to be.

Here are just a few examples to give you a picture of how Turkish society is changing:
  1. Islamic religious schools are replacing secular universities,
  2. a crack-down on the consumption of alcohol, bars, and nightclubs
  3. A revival of rampant homophobia in a country that was otherwise progressing along with Europe on this issue.
  4. the reinstatement of the Hijab in schools and government institutions
  5. and the general ostracization of essentially anyone involved in public life who doesn't play along with the rise of conservative Islamic AKP party in the country.

So my question is whether this should be a warning to western Europe as the Muslim population is set to rise dramatically there over the next few decades (especially in France)? Is conservative Islam compatible with modern secular liberalism in the west? To put it another way, Can a majority Muslim country embrace modern liberal values?
Click to expand...

You never got an answer for that question. The answer is no.
 
Chagos said:
Comparing Turkey (always Muslim despite the secular veneer) to a Western country (like, for instance, France) doesn't cut it.

And the Muslim population of Western countries rising dramatically over the next decades is at best conjecture.

As is, subsequently, the implied scenario of their becoming Muslim majority countries.
Click to expand...

I take it this is another of those "the muslims are outbreeding us" threads? Thanks for saving me from reading the OP and wasting a few minutes of my life.

Exit thread.
 
coldjoint said:
You never got an answer for that question. The answer is no.
Click to expand...
The answer to the question that the whole thread presents itself as (read title) is no.

Silly claims, substantiated by nothing and contradicted by the very material supposed to confirm them, whole thing is a failure.

Nothing to see here and that includes the above "contribution".:roll:
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I take it this is another of those "the muslims are outbreeding us" threads? Thanks for saving me from reading the OP and wasting a few minutes of my life.

Exit thread.
Click to expand...
Whack-a-mole games.:mrgreen:
 
International10 said:
From post WWI through about 2000 Turkey was for all intents and purposes as close as a non-europeon country has come to being a liberal western democracy; however, beginning with the ascendency of Recep Erdogan, around the year 2000, The Islamic AKP party, has radically changed the paradigm in Turkey. This is in large part due to the shifting demographics of the country. Modern western looking communities in the western part of the country were simply not as fertile as the more Islamic eastern part of the country. For lack of a better phrase, there are simply more conservative Muslims than there used to be.

Here are just a few examples to give you a picture of how Turkish society is changing:
  1. Islamic religious schools are replacing secular universities,
  2. a crack-down on the consumption of alcohol, bars, and nightclubs
  3. A revival of rampant homophobia in a country that was otherwise progressing along with Europe on this issue.
  4. the reinstatement of the Hijab in schools and government institutions
  5. and the general ostracization of essentially anyone involved in public life who doesn't play along with the rise of conservative Islamic AKP party in the country.

So my question is whether this should be a warning to western Europe as the Muslim population is set to rise dramatically there over the next few decades (especially in France)? Is conservative Islam compatible with modern secular liberalism in the west? To put it another way, Can a majority Muslim country embrace modern liberal values?
Click to expand...

Yes, they can. There were plenty of secular minded Muslims during the Cold War, and still the vast majority of Muslims, while not secular, are more than compatible with modern values.

Th people who aren't compatible are the neofascist scum who have been using fear of Muslims as a crutch to try and pull themselves back into power.
 
If one studies the posting habits of the OP, one will find one or two threads presented every two months or so that are quickly abandoned after two or three posts and rarely get more attention than around 20 replies before they die.

Bringing to mind the old "don't feed the trolls" adage.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I take it this is another of those "the muslims are outbreeding us" threads? Thanks for saving me from reading the OP and wasting a few minutes of my life.

Exit thread.
Click to expand...

This type of passivity reminds me of American conservatives attitude towards global warming. Just as the climate is changing so is the demographic makeup of the West. But, I understand how its hard to worry too much about whats happening tomorrow when there is so much happening today.
 
International10 said:
This type of passivity reminds me of American conservatives attitude towards global warming. Just as the climate is changing so is the demographic makeup of the West. But, I understand how its hard to worry too much about whats happening tomorrow when there is so much happening today.
Click to expand...

I'm being passive because demonstrating the falseness of your premise to you would be a complete waste of my time and energy.
 
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