• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

How will Brexit go?

  • The EU will continue to grow but will change to address the feelings that drove Brexit.

    Votes: 13 11.4%

  • The EU will continue to grow but will not address the feelings that drove Brexit

    Votes: 16 14.0%

  • The EU will see more countries pulling out after we leave.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • The UK will break up as a consequence of Brexit.

    Votes: 26 22.8%

  • The UK will still hold after all is done and dusted.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • There’ll be a second Brexit related referendum. (Independence / Brexit etc)

    Votes: 22 19.3%

  • We’ll end up with soft Brexit and end up staying within EFTA.

    Votes: 18 15.8%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit, a disaster ending with WTO rules.

    Votes: 29 25.4%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit which will be a success, even under WTO rules

    Votes: 18 15.8%
  • Total voters
    114
PeteEU said:
Yes, should have happened 30 years ago when the anti-Europe Tories started to bitch and lay down roadblocks for the rest of Europe.
Click to expand...

Self-interest. They are anti-Europe because they feel they are the true Tories, Conservative & Unionist. They feel they claim the moral high ground in the internal party dynamics.

Besides, the Tories have generally been in power throughout UK history. Why voluntarily cast yourself out of likely government?
 
I'm really trying not to confuse BoJo's stupidity for optimism in today's news.


"There is an EU summit this week. It is not too late to get real change to the backstop."
 
Infinite Chaos said:
About sums it up. Unfortunately the Conservatives chose the wrong woman for PM. (Not saying the gruesome Andrea Leadsom was a better choice)

My candidate would have been Ruth Davidson and she is the closest we have to a fiery, passionate speaker like 24 year old Mhairi Black of the SNP.
Click to expand...


I know that Davidson is really popular with trendy liberals, being both gay and Scottish.


But she's not particularly representative of the Tory paryy, its members, voters and MPs and has no chance of ever being leader.
 
Westphalian said:
But she's not particularly representative of the Tory paryy, its members, voters and MPs and has no chance of ever being leader.
Click to expand...


She's also not particularly representative of leading Brexit negotiations.

Why would anybody recommend her as a potential leader, given the fact that she's an ardent Remainer.

May was/is also a Remainer at heart - look at the sterling job she's done thus far.
 
Westphalian said:
I know that Davidson is really popular with trendy liberals, being both gay and Scottish.


But she's not particularly representative of the Tory paryy, its members, voters and MPs and has no chance of ever being leader.
Click to expand...

Are you aware Ruth Davidson is actually leader of the Scottish Conservatives and not the Liberal party? You ever bothered to watch her speak? Does Scottish TV not make it as far as Moscow and Putin's voice factories?
 
Third Brexit vote must be different - Speaker

In a surprise ruling, he said he would not allow a third Brexit vote in the coming days on "substantially the same" motion as MPs rejected last week.
With 11 days to go before the UK is due to leave the EU, ministers have warned of a looming "constitutional crisis". Link.
Click to expand...

We've been spared the sight of T. May's nag trotting out for a 3rd drubbing tomorrow night. Once again she has united Leavers and Remainers who agree speaker Bercow's ruling today.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Are you aware Ruth Davidson is actually leader of the Scottish Conservatives and not the Liberal party? You ever bothered to watch her speak? Does Scottish TV not make it as far as Moscow and Putin's voice factories?
Click to expand...

She's also a kick boxer, so could probably boot lardy homophobic Westphalian arse a long way across the steppes.

As for Bercow's intervention I read something about this point of Parliamentary procedure last week, so quite why it should so surprise the 'Government' is a mystery. Except they're all so useless I guess it's not really.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Are you aware Ruth Davidson is actually leader of the Scottish Conservatives and not the Liberal party? You ever bothered to watch her speak? Does Scottish TV not make it as far as Moscow and Putin's voice factories?
Click to expand...


Do you know the difference between small 'l' and big 'L'?


Clearly not :roll:
 
Sven Karma said:
She's also a kick boxer, so could probably boot lardy homophobic Westphalian arse a long way across the steppes.

As for Bercow's intervention I read something about this point of Parliamentary procedure last week, so quite why it should so surprise the 'Government' is a mystery. Except they're all so useless I guess it's not really.
Click to expand...


Bercow's independence is already dangerously compromised.


The fact is that following MV2 circumstances have changed dramatically with the House rejecting 'no deal' and with the motion to extend A50.

Bercow would be very foolish to pretend that another vote on MV3 would be a waste of time. The Speaker should not attempt to deny another vote on the only deal in town.


PS I assume that Bercow will also now prevent any further votes on a 2nd referendum. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Westphalian said:
Do you know the difference between small 'l' and big 'L'?


Clearly not :roll:
Click to expand...

Well, you can demonstrate your superiority and show me who the "liberals" are that she is popular with?
 
Westphalian said:
Bercow's independence is already dangerously compromised.


The fact is that following MV2 circumstances have changed dramatically with the House rejecting 'no deal' and with the motion to extend A50.

Bercow would be very foolish to pretend that another vote on MV3 would be a waste of time. The Speaker should not attempt to deny another vote on the only deal in town.


PS I assume that Bercow will also now prevent any further votes on a 2nd referendum. Be careful what you wish for.
Click to expand...

I think you don't quite get what's happened. (Not that I blame you, this ever-expanding sh¡t-circus is like the Kremlinology of chaos). Bercow may be a divisive figure but in this case all he is doing is pointing out the long-established procedure to stop parliamentary flogging of dead horses which is why Rees-Mogg etc are actually happy with him at the moment.

Brexit: Can May still bring back her deal after Bercow statement? - BBC News

The circumstances changing doesn't matter; that the resubmitted motion wouldn't have any significant changes does.

The article's last paragraphs promise more fun times:

"So, already there is a focus on the word "session" in Erskine May.

If MPs can't discuss the same thing in the same session of Parliament, why not simply start a new one?

In the parlance, Parliament would be "prorogued" - in other words, the Queen would end the current session and a new one would begin soon after.

But this strategy would be extremely controversial, and may even be resisted by Buckingham Palace if it appeared that the monarchy was being used in a politically contentious way."
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Well, you can demonstrate your superiority and show me who the "liberals" are that she is popular with?
Click to expand...


She's certainly not popular with conservatives in her own party (note the small 'c') and is far away on the liberal wing.
 
Sven Karma said:
I think you don't quite get what's happened. (Not that I blame you, this ever-expanding sh¡t-circus is like the Kremlinology of chaos). Bercow may be a divisive figure but in this case all he is doing is pointing out the long-established procedure to stop parliamentary flogging of dead horses which is why Rees-Mogg etc are actually happy with him at the moment.

Brexit: Can May still bring back her deal after Bercow statement? - BBC News

The circumstances changing doesn't matter; that the resubmitted motion wouldn't have any significant changes does.

The article's last paragraphs promise more fun times:

"So, already there is a focus on the word "session" in Erskine May.

If MPs can't discuss the same thing in the same session of Parliament, why not simply start a new one?

In the parlance, Parliament would be "prorogued" - in other words, the Queen would end the current session and a new one would begin soon after.

But this strategy would be extremely controversial, and may even be resisted by Buckingham Palace if it appeared that the monarchy was being used in a politically contentious way."
Click to expand...


By the same principle bercow should not allow a further vote on any of the other things parliament has rejected in this session, particularly :

2nd referendum

Parliament taking control of business agenda



He is pouring petrol on an already smouldering system of non democracy.
 
Westphalian said:
She's certainly not popular with conservatives in her own party (note the small 'c') and is far away on the liberal wing.
Click to expand...

I asked "Well, you can demonstrate your superiority and show me who the "liberals" are that she is popular with?"

Thank you!
 
Westphalian said:
By the same principle bercow should not allow a further vote on any of the other things parliament has rejected in this session, particularly :

2nd referendum

Parliament taking control of business agenda



He is pouring petrol on an already smouldering system of non democracy.
Click to expand...

Well yeah sure, I guess that's why legislators rewrite legislation so that it differs from what was put up before. Democracy stuff you may not be familiar with.

Somebody needed to make an Intervention to stop the Theresa May robot from repeatedly banging its head against the wall.
 
Westphalian said:
By the same principle bercow should not allow a further vote on any of the other things parliament has rejected in this session, particularly :

2nd referendum

Parliament taking control of business agenda



He is pouring petrol on an already smouldering system of non democracy.
Click to expand...

They can if they make changes. The thing with May's deal is that they cannot change anything.
 
ur5kecqeswm21.jpg
 
PeteEU said:
March 29th... also the day the last US troops fled.. err evacuated.. err left Vietnam. Kinda ominous no? yes just finished watching a long PBS Vietnam documentary :)
Click to expand...

So you bash America (again) in a thread which has nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.

Stay classy, Pete... :roll:
 
What we need to realise here is that the democratic imperative to deliver Brexit can not be dissolved or obfuscated away.

Opinion polls continue to show that the UK is fairly evenly split, and that for all the social media noise by the privileged, the rich, and the connected, the working class 'have nots' remain largely committed to not just Brexit but a hard Brexit.

This poses a huge risk for the establishment. Anyone who thinks that Brexit can be cancelled without anyone noticing or caring is deluding themselves. The division and anger is real on both sides.

It is hard to see how this establishment system and set of MPs who have failed to keep their own promises to respect the will of the people can escape intact.

Change must be delivered, and if Brexit is cancelled then it will be delivered through other means. The anger and backlash will come. The establishment may ultimately find that denying Brexit was a strategic mistake.
 
A view from abroad:

Brexit: last week in the UK the elites rose up and overthrew the masses


How not to negotiate

Mark Steyn on Brexit the day after the last vote:
Last night, sixteen days before Britain supposedly leaves the European Union in accord with the people’s vote of three years ago, their elected representatives voted by 312 to 308 to rule out a “no-deal” Brexit – i.e. a straightforward walkaway - ever.
So the EU now has no incentive ever to reach a deal with Britain. The appalling “deal” Theresa May “negotiated” was for a wretched and humiliating vassal status with Brussels. Because for the Eurocrats, what matters is to teach the lesson the ingrate voters that you can check “Out” any time you like but you can never leave. Mrs May’s deal was meant to be a message to antsy Continentals that the citizenry’s impertinence must never happen again.
So last night the elites rose up and overthrew the masses….
Is May working for the EU or the UK?

Am I crazy? I’m hardly a foreign trade wizz, but I would have thought if you represent the fifth largest economy in the world, whose Monarch technically still heads the most widespread empire, culture and language on Earth* you arrive at the negotiating table saying “We’re out”. Offer us something worthwhile and we’ll consider it. “Two weeks to go.”
From afar downunder there haven’t been any signs Theresa May was serious about Brexit. Surely she would have already negotiated trade deals with the likes of the US, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand? The new arrangements would start the day after Brexit. The EU would be coming to her.
She’d have been delivering speeches about restoring the power and influence of the Commonwealth — surely a bargaining chip worthy of cashing in. Dare I say “India”?
May has had two years to prepare, yet here we are with days to go, and now she’s talking about Tariff details in a No Deal Brexit — the option the house voted down a few days ago?
Tonight the Express is reporting that a couple of economists are asking why she didn’t negotiate with the major EU nations instead of trying to negotiate with the man who had the most to gain from wrecking any deal.
Brexit SHOCK: Economists claim UK should NOT have negotiated with Jean-Claude Juncker

Martina Bet, The Express
According to 2018 book, “Clean Brexit: Why Leaving the EU still makes sense” by authors and economists Liam Halligan and Gerard Lyons, Britain should have negotiated in the first place with big EU nations, chiefly Germany, and not Mr Juncker. If you represent the fifth largest economy in the world you arrive at the negotiating table saying “We’re out”. Offer us something worthwhile and we’ll consider it. Two weeks to go.
Mr Halligan and Mr Lyons claimed that as Britain heads for the exit, “the Commission is deeply concerned about losing the UK’s annual contribution – some £13.1 billion in 2016, or £8.6 billion in net terms.”
They wrote: “So Juncker wanted to do everything he could to frustrate, delay and even help prevent that exit.”
And in the end, the irony, for all the argy bargy on the floor of Parliament, the MP that stops the delay may be the PM of Italy

There are allies in Europe of Brexit.
Italy to BLOCK Brexit delay: Salvini plans eurosceptic favour to Farage, warns Merkel ally . . . .


 
Westphalian said:
What we need to realise here is that the democratic imperative to deliver Brexit can not be dissolved or obfuscated away.

Opinion polls continue to show that the UK is fairly evenly split, and that for all the social media noise by the privileged, the rich, and the connected, the working class 'have nots' remain largely committed to not just Brexit but a hard Brexit.

This poses a huge risk for the establishment. Anyone who thinks that Brexit can be cancelled without anyone noticing or caring is deluding themselves. The division and anger is real on both sides.

It is hard to see how this establishment system and set of MPs who have failed to keep their own promises to respect the will of the people can escape intact.

Change must be delivered, and if Brexit is cancelled then it will be delivered through other means. The anger and backlash will come. The establishment may ultimately find that denying Brexit was a strategic mistake.
Click to expand...

I am sure the 'have nots' will feel so good when they lose their jobs and they have to pay substantially more for everything. The thing is those who are loyal to the view of hard Brexit refuse to accept the consequences of one, they think they can have something for nothing.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom