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[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

How will Brexit go?

  • The EU will continue to grow but will change to address the feelings that drove Brexit.

    Votes: 13 11.4%

  • The EU will continue to grow but will not address the feelings that drove Brexit

    Votes: 16 14.0%

  • The EU will see more countries pulling out after we leave.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • The UK will break up as a consequence of Brexit.

    Votes: 26 22.8%

  • The UK will still hold after all is done and dusted.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • There’ll be a second Brexit related referendum. (Independence / Brexit etc)

    Votes: 22 19.3%

  • We’ll end up with soft Brexit and end up staying within EFTA.

    Votes: 18 15.8%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit, a disaster ending with WTO rules.

    Votes: 29 25.4%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit which will be a success, even under WTO rules

    Votes: 18 15.8%
  • Total voters
    114
PeteEU said:
The guy who is supposed to have negotiated the Brexit deal has resigned from government. ... that raises the question...who did the negotiations?

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The is the quality of transparency that I would expect from the Saudi Kingdom.

This is why the people have no confidence in their leaders.
 
Someone who was prepared to defend Tony Blair from international war crimes subpoena suddenly finds 'principles' lol
 
PeteEU said:
The guy who is supposed to have negotiated the Brexit deal has resigned from government. ... that raises the question...who did the negotiations?

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The guy (Dominic Raab) only realised last week that there would be major traffic holdups at the Dover channel crossing if Brexit happened!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-uk-haulage-expert-dominic-raab-dover-calais/

It seems his colleague Esther McVile has also resigned, to spend more time with reality.
 
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The way things look right now, May might not last another week or some. There are probably a number of candidates mad enough to take her place, but that would also mean that they're too mad for any leadership role.

This draft can now be considered as officially burned, WTH they're still arguing over in parliament right now remains a mystery.

Interesting the disingenuous-ness of semantics, of the options available (in her mind) May has actually named one as "no Brexit" (note: not a hard Brexit, not a soft one and not a crash-out, but none at all).

A thinly veiled threat?
 
Manc Skipper said:
~............................It seems his colleague Esther McVile has also resigned, ...................~
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There are people cursed with such a manner of name that they should never enter politics.:mrgreen:
 
Chagos said:
There are people cursed with such a manner of name that they should never enter politics.:mrgreen:
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I thought Fester McVile was a bit strong..... Perhaps I was wrong. She's championed the killing off of the disabled and vulnerable through the introduction of "Universal Credit"
 
Manc Skipper said:
I thought Fester McVile was a bit strong..... Perhaps I was wrong. She's championed the killing off of the disabled and vulnerable through the introduction of "Universal Credit"
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By now it also takes a pretty positive approach to think that Theresa is (family) named after a month of the year. Seems more like a listing of possibilities of action, none of them clear.

Theresa May or May not and if she indeed May what May she?
 
Manc Skipper said:
The guy (Dominic Raab) only realised last week that there would be major traffic holdups at the Dover channel crossing if Brexit happened!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-uk-haulage-expert-dominic-raab-dover-calais/

It seems his colleague Esther McVile has also resigned, to spend more time with reality.
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Yep.. a typical Brexitter...

The chaos continues as Mogg what's his name is demanding leadership change.

What amazes me is the other parties putting party ahead of country... which the Tories have been doing for decades. It is so obvious that Boris and Mogg are hoping for a leadership challenge which means that it will be a hard hard Brexit, which people like Mogg have wanted from the start. That is why the British negotiations tactic has been so poor...

Labour should back May's plan just to screw up the Tories even more but nooo they are pushing for an election... which will mean a hard Brexit... and no guarantee for a labour government.

Pathetic attitude by all British politicians.

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Well, Rees-Mugger has submitted the letter of no confidence.

Asked who should (in case of its success) take leadership, he gave warm mentions of Boris Johnsclown and Fester McVile.

But all sarcasm aside, that draft is not even a soft Brexit, it's a wee bit of............heck, I don't even know what.

How to sell that as delivering on the promise of leaving will take mental callisthenics that I, for one, cannot even envisage. Nor want to.

How OTH anyone can promise any kind of successful re-negotiation with Bruxelles shows the same kind of conundrum. Because if this shambles continues, Bruxelles will simply wait for end March and the subsequent UK crash-out.

Let there be no misunderstanding, provisions for that scenario have already been made, both in the political and economic world of EU. On the premise that there comes a cut-off point when dealing with a country of political loons.
 
Chagos said:
Well, Rees-Mugger has submitted the letter of no confidence.

Asked who should (in case of its success) take leadership, he gave warm mentions of Boris Johnsclown and Fester McVile.

But all sarcasm aside, that draft is not even a soft Brexit, it's a wee bit of............heck, I don't even know what.

How to sell that as delivering on the promise of leaving will take mental callisthenics that I, for one, cannot even envisage. Nor want to.

How OTH anyone can promise any kind of successful re-negotiation with Bruxelles shows the same kind of conundrum. Because if this shambles continues, Bruxelles will simply wait for end March and the subsequent UK crash-out.

Let there be no misunderstanding, provisions for that scenario have already been made, both in the political and economic world of EU. On the premise that there comes a cut-off point when dealing with a country of political loons.
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Well said.....my issue is that the EU may have all of its ducks in a row but there are some issues still that are up in the air because of the British chaos.

1) Rights of EU citzens in the UK and Brits in the EU. I know the EU wants to keep the status quo, but won't do that if the UK does not do the same.. but considering the utter chaos in the UK then who is exactly going to make that call? And can we trust anyone that does make that call to keep that promise?

2) Travel to and from the UK... because of the stupidity of rhe the May government, the UK will as the only country stand outside all international agreements on air travel and then what happens? No one knows... the EU will be forced ike the US to ban flights to and from the EU because of no saftey certification. The UK government has no plans in place and not done any work to fix this so we are all in total limbo...

3) So much more.. food, medicine and so on and no government in the UK.

By all rights the UK is a defacto failed state at the moment.... and that is scary as hell.

And all this does not even include trade!!!!!

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Chagos said:
Well, Rees-Mugger has submitted the letter of no confidence ~
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I wish the bugger had the balls to have put himself forward 2 years ago. The hard Brexiteers have poopooed everything but haven't had the guts to step forward with their own alternative.

It's far too late for a leadership election but she could resign any moment now and we end up with a hard exit. Who knows - 10 years and negotiations to rejoin (sans all the rights and rebates we have now) could start.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I wish the bugger had the balls to have put himself forward 2 years ago. The hard Brexiteers have poopooed everything but haven't had the guts to step forward with their own alternative.
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Yeah a despicable bunch, I'll agree. But Rees-Bugger is after his own interests here and they have nothing to do with the well-being of the country. And would not be served at all if he got involved in politics beyond spiking those of others (that's why he jumped like a scalded cat when asked if he had leadership aspirations).
It's far too late for a leadership election but she could resign any moment now and we end up with a hard exit. Who knows - 10 years and negotiations to rejoin (sans all the rights and rebates we have now) could start.
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Just watched her press conference and she looked determined to carry on til the world goes under. Which may not take that long.

But where I've always held her to be well below average intelligence, stubbornness is not something one can accuse her of lacking. Applies to determination just as much.

Of course the whole current brouhaha is a nothing-burger, seeing how that draft, even filled to surpass the draft stage, will never pass parliament. Her side will shoot it down and Labour will not support it either, the latter bunch of opportunistic scum on account of seeing first of all the chance to force new elections if they march May into the nearest wall. Which, even were they to win those, would leave us all exactly where we are now. Again.

In pursuit of own power dreams (gaining it or hanging on to it) the political class, right across the aisle, has taken the nation hostage and we are all too civilized to go out and hang the whole bloody lot.
 
PeteEU said:
Well said.....my issue is that the EU may have all of its ducks in a row but there are some issues still that are up in the air because of the British chaos.

1) Rights of EU citzens in the UK and Brits in the EU. I know the EU wants to keep the status quo, but won't do that if the UK does not do the same.. but considering the utter chaos in the UK then who is exactly going to make that call? And can we trust anyone that does make that call to keep that promise?

2) Travel to and from the UK... because of the stupidity of rhe the May government, the UK will as the only country stand outside all international agreements on air travel and then what happens? No one knows... the EU will be forced ike the US to ban flights to and from the EU because of no saftey certification. The UK government has no plans in place and not done any work to fix this so we are all in total limbo...

3) So much more.. food, medicine and so on and no government in the UK.

By all rights the UK is a defacto failed state at the moment.... and that is scary as hell.

And all this does not even include trade!!!!!

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VENEZUELA is a failed state. When you show me the majority of the country skipping meals, having electrical and water outages, unsupplied hospitals and widespread crime, you can honestly talk about a failed state. The UK voted for Brexit for a simple reason: People want local control over the regulations they are forced to live by. If the EU were competent, they would have addressed this before it came to a desire to leave. The EU is hostile and stiff necked to any group wanting local autonomy.
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

It's interesting to look back to the start of this thread over 18 months ago. Leaving aside the travesty that the whole UK political class has by now created, some of the comments on other items have really been led ad absurdum.

Like

-the EU needs our buying power
-Germany will force the rest to give us really good deals
-The EU will never show cohesion on this issue
-Alone the German car industry will whisper into ears on account of the HUGE Uk market
-etc., etc. etc.

The reality of today is actually that the EU has more important things on its mind than the UK and if anyone in London thinks that it can go back endlessly to Bruxelles for more and more, they clearly have a worrying case of narcolepsia.
 
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SDET said:
VENEZUELA is a failed state. When you show me the majority of the country skipping meals, having electrical and water outages, unsupplied hospitals and widespread crime, you can honestly talk about a failed state. The UK voted for Brexit for a simple reason: People want local control over the regulations they are forced to live by. If the EU were competent, they would have addressed this before it came to a desire to leave. The EU is hostile and stiff necked to any group wanting local autonomy.
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I wouldn't call the UK a failed state either but the rest of your post shows how little you know of either the UK or Europe, not to mention what actually drove Brexit.
 
SDET said:
VENEZUELA is a failed state. When you show me the majority of the country skipping meals, having electrical and water outages, unsupplied hospitals and widespread crime, you can honestly talk about a failed state.
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Yes, but Venezuela has been a failed state for a while. And by a failed state, I mean a state that is politically in utter chaos at the governmental level. In the UKs case, the current government has zero mandate and no one trusts anything they do.. on all sides. And that is a problem... Sweden has no government technically but there is a caretaker government in place that runs the country. May is having trouble even doing that at the moment.. and that is why I say that the UK is or is heading into failed state status.

The UK voted for Brexit for a simple reason: People want local control over the regulations they are forced to live by.
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No.. they voted for multiple made up bull**** reasons.

If the EU were competent, they would have addressed this before it came to a desire to leave.
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A bit hard to do, as that would be meddling in the internal politics of a member nation which is a big no no. On top of that, the basis of the anti-EU sentiment in the UK is mostly based on lies.

The EU is hostile and stiff necked to any group wanting local autonomy.
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And that is where you lose... the EU is ALL ABOUT local autonomy. It is actually in the EU treaty, that if something can be done locally then it should be done locally. The EU has in fact pushed for more local autonomy for decades.. including in the UK, which of course pissed off... the right wing elitists in London.

Did you know, that a local government.. say a mayor, can apply to the EU for financial help by passing the the national government who has been stonewalling him/her for decades? Yea, they can do that..
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

Chagos said:
~ Like

-the EU needs our buying power
-Germany will force the rest to give us really good deals
-The EU will never show cohesion on this issue
-Alone the German car industry will whisper into ears on account of the HUGE Uk market ~
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I recall plenty of conversations online and in the real world where I was told not to be so negative, it was a matter of time before the Germans bent EU rules for us. Didn't believe them then, don't believe them now.

The true had Brexiteers however always wanted a full hard Brexit, ideologically I can't ever agree - the old claims not to believe experts, or big industry or economists. Somehow, only the Rees Moggs and BoJos knew what they wanted and how true hard Brexit worked and how (or who) it would benefit.
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

Infinite Chaos said:
I recall plenty of conversations online and in the real world where I was told not to be so negative, it was a matter of time before the Germans bent EU rules for us. Didn't believe them then, don't believe them now.

The true had Brexiteers however always wanted a full hard Brexit, ideologically I can't ever agree - the old claims not to believe experts, or big industry or economists. Somehow, only the Rees Moggs and BoJos knew what they wanted and how true hard Brexit worked and how (or who) it would benefit.
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Experts (read people of knowledge) have the annoying habit of telling things that fools don't want to hear.

As a consequence fools turn to those that DO tell them what they want to hear. In the process not realizing (seeing how they're fools) that they're being used by the latter.

That's where the term "useful idiot" originates.
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

Chagos said:
-the EU needs our buying power
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Never really understood this one. 44 to 52% of all UK exports go to the EU or associated countries (Norway and so on), and even larger part goes to the EU, associated countries plus the countries the EU has trade deals with. So the vast majority of the 600 billion in exports is linked to the EU... so who exactly needs who more?

Germany will force the rest to give us really good
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Why? Germany is not the weak party in this.. that is the UK. Germany can wait it out... the UK cant.

-The EU will never show cohesion on this issue
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Yes it will and has. While the UK has shown a lack of everything, the EU has shown the opposite.
-Alone the German car industry will whisper into ears on account of the HUGE Uk market
Click to expand...

Lol why? The German car industry owns plants in the UK and can easily manufacture cars for the UK market in the UK.. but the 85%+ of the production that goes to the EU can also easily be moved back to the EU....



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Re: How will Brexit go?

PeteEU said:
Never really understood this one. 44 to 52% of all UK exports go to the EU or associated countries (Norway and so on), and even larger part goes to the EU, associated countries plus the countries the EU has trade deals with. So the vast majority of the 600 billion in exports is linked to the EU... so who exactly needs who more?


Why? Germany is not the weak party in this.. that is the UK. Germany can wait it out... the UK cant.


Yes it will and has. While the UK has shown a lack of everything, the EU has shown the opposite.


Lol why? The German car industry owns plants in the UK and can easily manufacture cars for the UK market in the UK.. but the 85%+ of the production that goes to the EU can also easily be moved back to the EU....



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I was outlining the idiocy of those pipe dreams even in their time and more so now.

No need for you and I to argue over them, they remain stupid.;)
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

Chagos said:
I was outlining the idiocy of those pipe dreams even in their time and more so now.

No need for you and I to argue over them, they remain stupid.;)
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Aye I know.. just trying to wrap my head around the arguments made by Brexit people...

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Re: How will Brexit go?

To those not so familiar with UK proceedings but following the current brouhaha over a possible no-confidence vote on Theresa May, it need be understood that the current proceedings are an internal party issue of the Tories.

The vote, if carried out and successful in the sense of her opponents, concerns her party leadership. Not her position as PM.

For her to be toppled as PM would require a parliamentary non-confidence vote.

One can speculate of whether her position of PM would remain tenable if she lost the party leadership, but it's far too early for that.

Just to clarify ;)
 
Re: How will Brexit go?

Chagos said:
To those not so familiar with UK proceedings but following the current brouhaha over a possible no-confidence vote on Theresa May, it need be understood that the current proceedings are an internal party issue of the Tories.

The vote, if carried out and successful in the sense of her opponents, concerns her party leadership. Not her position as PM.

For her to be toppled as PM would require a parliamentary non-confidence vote.

One can speculate of whether her position of PM would remain tenable if she lost the party leadership, but it's far too early for that.

Just to clarify ;)
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And that in fact makes it even more crazy... because any replacement to May has to be rubberstamped by the DUP... to avoid the government falls the day after it gets a new leader.

In democratic terms the UK is a failed state with a rudderless leadership and very little lack of trust. In American terms massively lameduck administration with added chaos on the legitimate nature of any goverment action.

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Re: How will Brexit go?

PeteEU said:
And that in fact makes it even more crazy... because any replacement to May has to be rubberstamped by the DUP... to avoid the government falls the day after it gets a new leader.

In democratic terms the UK is a failed state with a rudderless leadership and very little lack of trust. In American terms massively lameduck administration with added chaos on the legitimate nature of any goverment action.

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The only good thing resulting from all this development (and I use the term "good" with bile rising in my throat) is that things are coming to a head. After what feels like decades of inactivity on the real issue, concentration on almost lunatic self-centredness having been preferred.

The cards are dealt:

1) there is no better withdrawal agreement conceivable as forthcoming from Bruxelles (Paris, Berlin, Vienna, The Hague etc., etc., etc.), so either take it or get off the pot.

2) The UK rejecting this one by whatever means (intentional down-voting, customary incapacity of acting at all, general incompetence due to stressing internal strife more than dealing with the issue, etc.) will mean "curtains". IOW crash-out with nothing.

3) Only other option left being to take it back to the people, possibly offering to choose either of the above two options with the third option of "no Brexit" thrown in.

I raise option three not with a view to (as I will no doubt be accused of) getting the remainers a chance to "keep taking this to the vote until the public finally gets it right", options 1) and 2) are always there without option 3) even being bothered with.

Meanwhile somebody needs to point out that the draft is a withdrawal agreement, not a completely future bound contract on UK-EU relations that'll have to be negotiated separately anyway. The draft holds pitfalls for both hardline Brexiteers as well as their "softer" counterparts, but life is not a cherry-cake.
 
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