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[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

How will Brexit go?

  • The EU will continue to grow but will change to address the feelings that drove Brexit.

    Votes: 13 11.4%

  • The EU will continue to grow but will not address the feelings that drove Brexit

    Votes: 16 14.0%

  • The EU will see more countries pulling out after we leave.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • The UK will break up as a consequence of Brexit.

    Votes: 26 22.8%

  • The UK will still hold after all is done and dusted.

    Votes: 20 17.5%

  • There’ll be a second Brexit related referendum. (Independence / Brexit etc)

    Votes: 22 19.3%

  • We’ll end up with soft Brexit and end up staying within EFTA.

    Votes: 18 15.8%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit, a disaster ending with WTO rules.

    Votes: 29 25.4%

  • We'll have a Hard Brexit which will be a success, even under WTO rules

    Votes: 18 15.8%
  • Total voters
    114
With the DUP now definitely still voting against the WA, May's agreement still looks un-winnable.

This leaves the charade of 'indicative votes' which is really MPs constructing their own unicorns.

Truly, I am appalled at this spectacle and so will a very large % of the public.


PS LOL @IC's comment.
 
Sven Karma said:
~ ERG head honcho Steve Baker ~
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you aware of the irony where Brexiteers held bankers in contempt during the referendum yet Steve Baker ran the global financing and asset service platforms at Lehman Brothers around the time of the Global crunch?

I remain deeply suspicious some of the free market Brexiteers are not free marketeers after Thatcher but for their own ends. I'm willing to bet in around 40-50 years we'll see the true seeds of why Baker, Farage and Mogg as well as other city traders were so determined to bring the country down.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
you aware of the irony where Brexiteers held bankers in contempt during the referendum yet Steve Baker ran the global financing and asset service platforms at Lehman Brothers around the time of the Global crunch?

I remain deeply suspicious some of the free market Brexiteers are not free marketeers after Thatcher but for their own ends. I'm willing to bet in around 40-50 years we'll see the true seeds of why Baker, Farage and Mogg as well as other city traders were so determined to bring the country down.
Click to expand...

They are disaster capitalists. They stand to earn billions personally from a hard Brexit. They are already earning millions on all the chaos. They are frankly huge traitors and should be arrested.
 
PeteEU said:
They are disaster capitalists. They stand to earn billions personally from a hard Brexit. They are already earning millions on all the chaos. They are frankly huge traitors and should be arrested.
Click to expand...


When it comes to traitors, I'd have whole different group of people arrested.


Edward Heath was the original traitor, but he has many current bed-fellows. None of them are from the ERG.
 
Good to see Labour now tying themselves in knots as Corbyn faces resignations from shadow ministers who defied the Labour whip on the confirmatory vote amendment.
 
Westphalian said:
When it comes to traitors, I'd have whole different group of people arrested.


Edward Heath was the original traitor, but he has many current bed-fellows. None of them are from the ERG.
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Hogwash.

The UK economy has grown at stupendous rates since joining. What do the ERG offer? Even Pravda can't make the actual financial statistics of UK economic growth look bad enough to blame Heath for taking us in.

How did the UK economy do since joining the EU? | News | Institute for New Economic Thinking at the Oxford Martin School

Fact check: MP's claim EU did not boost UK growth is Mostly False

How old are you? I'm willing to bet you are not old enough to remember the UK of the 1970's.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Sorry Jack, you are fundamentally wrong. Brexit's causes are

According to ordinary Brexiteers on the street:
  • EU stealing sovereignty
  • EU forcing poor Romanian immigrants on us
  • We pay for the Eu and get nothing in return
  • EU forces us to let Spanish and French fishermen steal our fish.


According to Free market Brexiteers like Rees-Mogg / Farage:
  • An opportunity to make money from uncertainty.
  • Reduce govt and restructure the UK economy.
  • Make our own trade deals


My view:
  • Govt not enforcing EU rules and kicking out EU nationals after 3 months who didn't have jobs.
  • Govt not using taxes from immigrants to alleviate housing / health shortages where those immigrants settled to work.
  • 45 years of negative stories including fake stories pushed by Boris Johnson and the "Euromyth."
  • Govt not explaining the benefits of access to the Single Market.
  • Disaster of the ERM

Now, feel free to disagree but please explain why.
Click to expand...

I suggest you have made my point. If the EU were a simple customs union/free trade zone, with no single currency and immigration controls between states then most of the causes on your list would disappear.
 
Jack Hays said:
I suggest you have made my point. If the EU were a simple customs union/free trade zone, with no single currency and immigration controls between states then most of the causes on your list would disappear.
Click to expand...

I wasn't expecting a thought out answer and you didn't disappoint.
 
Westphalian said:
With the DUP now definitely still voting against the WA, May's agreement still looks un-winnable.

This leaves the charade of 'indicative votes' which is really MPs constructing their own unicorns.

Truly, I am appalled at this spectacle and so will a very large % of the public.


PS LOL @IC's comment.
Click to expand...


After spending hours listening to debates on issues tabled, I have to agree with you, and add I was not surprised at the outcome. After all, it is a Parliament consisting of mainly Remain MPs.

I was sickened by the likes of Johnson doing a U-turn on saying he would support PM May's deal. So much for his critism of it up to now. Anyway, I suspect like you that a very large portion of the public will be just as angry, and suspect far right parties are going to do well in EU elections, especially UKIP which has also become a far right party under its new leader.

So, who do I vote for now? Clearly not Tory nor Labour, and no way would I vote UKIP either under its current leadership and direction. :(
 
Carjosse said:
Maybe before you start debating about the EU you should learn what it is, what it does, how it does it, and why. EU Lite already exists, it is the called the EEA. Political integration has been beneficial to the citizens of the UK, it has given them protections of rights and freedoms that do not exist under UK law and allows for closer social and economic integration with the rest of Europe. The UK has to give up sovereignty to create any kind of deal, and the better the deal the more you will have to give up.
Click to expand...

I had been an anti-EU activist from 1996 until the UK voted Leave in 2016. In that time I spent thousands of hours going through the archives of both the UK and EU Parliament. I know exactly what it is, probably better than you. How much time did you spend there? Probably none or very few. This does not even touch on the time spent on EU Commission site, or other site archives like the WTO, UN, Commonwealth, etc, etc, etc.
 
First four indicative vote options not supported

No Deal - Not supported
For: 160
Against: 400

Common Market 2.0 - Not supported
For: 188
Against: 283

EFTA and EEA - Not supported
For: 65
Against: 377

Customs union - Not supported
For: 264
Against: 272

Labour’s alternative plan – Not supported
For: 237
Against: 307

Revocation to avoid no deal – Not supported
For: 184
Against: 293

Confirmatory public vote – Not supported
For: 268
Against: 295

Contingent preferential arrangements – Not supported
For: 139
Against: 422
Click to expand...

None of the options have been supported tonight... Completely crazy.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
...
I was sickened by the likes of Johnson doing a U-turn on saying he would support PM May's deal. So much for his critism of it up to now. ....
Click to expand...

May fails to convince DUP and ERG 'Spartans' to back her Brexit deal | Politics | The Guardian

"One informed DUP source said members would not forgive Johnson for his decision to vote for the withdrawal deal. “He has done nothing to enhance his reputation for being slippery,” the source said.

Johnson told the party’s conference four months ago that May’s deal would mean Northern Ireland becoming “an economic semi-colony of the EU ... no Conservative British government could or should sign up to such arrangements”."

Move to NI, at least then you'll have the DUP to vote for.
 
Parliament has embarrassed and humiliated itself by 'taking control' and then proving itself to be capable only of rejecting everything.


This shambles by the Remain parliament only throws more fuel onto the fire of contempt felt by so many people, including many people who voted remain but accept that democracy works by respecting the outcome of referendums.

Remember that this parliament, only 10 years ago, was mired in corruption and fraud scandals over MPs' expenses. Nobody has forgotten this. When Steve Baker says he'd like to bulldoze Westminster into the Thames, he is speaking for a large number of people who work hard but struggle to make a living for their families in a system which has created mass inequality and an out of touch cosmopolitan bubble in London.
 
Jack Hays said:
That's quite unfair.
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And also delusional.

Exactly how does "Infinite Delusion" suggest a government enforce EU rules by kicking out other EU nationals after 3 months who don't have jobs?
 
Westphalian said:
Parliament has embarrassed and humiliated itself by 'taking control' and then proving itself to be capable only of rejecting everything.


This shambles by the Remain parliament only throws more fuel onto the fire of contempt felt by so many people, including many people who voted remain but accept that democracy works by respecting the outcome of referendums.

Remember that this parliament, only 10 years ago, was mired in corruption and fraud scandals over MPs' expenses. Nobody has forgotten this. When Steve Baker says he'd like to bulldoze Westminster into the Thames, he is speaking for a large number of people who work hard but struggle to make a living for their families in a system which has created mass inequality and an out of touch cosmopolitan bubble in London.
Click to expand...


More than you may realise. The default position enshrined in law is that the UK will leave without a deal whether MPs voted against such or not. Will they reach an agreement with EU on anything between now and when time runs out?
 
Westphalian said:
Parliament has embarrassed and humiliated itself by 'taking control' and then proving itself to be capable only of rejecting everything.
Click to expand...

Don't play so smug Russian.

Democracy like this could never ever happen in Putin's Russia. The upper and lower houses of parliament are simply rubber-stamp echo-chambers
 
Phoenix One UK said:
I had been an anti-EU activist from 1996 until the UK voted Leave in 2016. In that time I spent thousands of hours going through the archives of both the UK and EU Parliament. I know exactly what it is, probably better than you. How much time did you spend there? Probably none or very few. This does not even touch on the time spent on EU Commission site, or other site archives like the WTO, UN, Commonwealth, etc, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

How can it be that an expert such as yourself is being schooled by a relative novice? (in your estimation)
 
Jack Hays said:
That's quite unfair. Most of your causes would evaporate.
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For one - limits on EU workers are there in EU rules.

1. Workers’ rights of movement and residence
Directive 2004/38/EC introduces EU citizenship as the basic status for nationals of the Member States when they exercise their right to move and reside freely in EU territory. For the first three months, every EU citizen has the right to reside in the territory of another EU country with no conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport. For longer periods, the host Member State may require a citizen to register his or her presence within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.
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This simple rule allows any EU govt to kick out any EU national who does not have a job and is becoming a burden on the host state. This rule has always been there but the UK Govt never applied it in 45 years.
 
Manc Skipper said:
How can it be that an expert such as yourself is being schooled by a relative novice? (in your estimation)
Click to expand...

Expert? I can only assume you are using the term expert in relation to when I used it some posts back. I am considered an expert within my field of software research & development by industry in that field. If I had campaigned to be elected as an MP my expertise would remain the same within said area. The people could elect a dustbin collector as MP, which in no way even implies that being elected as such makes him/her an expert in economics. He/she would still be just a dustbin collector, which in no way implies that he/she lacks intelligence. People are selected for jury selection from all walks of life for simple reason that even the lowest person can rationalise information as set out before them. For this reason, I had often advised people to take what newspapers print or TV/Radio boasters say with a pinch of salt. They are no substitute for those witnessing events first hand or accessing information in public domain. Within you paragraph you quoted, I mentioned the existence of number of sites, and within their archives information is available to all as it is in the public domain. Meaning, it is freely available.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
For one - limits on EU workers are there in EU rules.



This simple rule allows any EU govt to kick out any EU national who does not have a job and is becoming a burden on the host state. This rule has always been there but the UK Govt never applied it in 45 years.
Click to expand...

Under the scenario I outlined the rule would not exist because there would be no free movement of workers.
 
Jack Hays said:
Under the scenario I outlined the rule would not exist because there would be no free movement of workers.
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So you mean that Brits would not be allowed to leave the country to work?
 
Jack Hays said:
The countries of Europe would be free to set their own immigration rules. As before Schengen.
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They have... anyone can come if they are an EU citizen.. just like the UK has agreed too. Are you starting to see the flaw in your argument yet?
 
Phoenix One UK said:
More than you may realise. The default position enshrined in law is that the UK will leave without a deal whether MPs voted against such or not. Will they reach an agreement with EU on anything between now and when time runs out?
Click to expand...

I don't believe that the UK will ever go for a no deal option - by accident or default.

This cabal of Remain dominated MPs would rather revoke Article 50 and throw democracy under the bus than leave with no deal.

That's the reality and all ERG members should remember this, although it's largely academic now the DUP insist that they will vote against the WA tomorrow.
 
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