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[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

How will Brexit go?


  • Total voters
    114
...
I suggest you research concepts around democracy, sovereignty, taking back control, and the poor, the weak, the powerless, the alienated being listened to.


I observe that Remainers tend to focus almost exclusively on money, and I suggest that this was far down the list of reasons why people voted Leave. Indeed, I think many Leave voters would willingly be a little more poor if it meant they had more power over their lives. And of course making the dis-possessed more powerful means making the establishment less powerful. ...

None of which explains why, if we compare equally disadvantaged areas, Motherwell, for instance, voted Remain where Middlesbrough voted Leave; or Dundee voted Remain where Hull voted Leave.
 
Democracy: The UK has an elected Parliament where a party can get a majority by having wayyyyy under 50% of the votes. On top of that, there is an unelected upper house. Cool.. Iran is more democratic...

Now the EU has a fully elected Parliament, where when you say majority, then there is an actual majority in votes at an election behind that claim. On top of that, the other legislative part of the EU is also composed of elected officials (for the most part) from member states... But the commission! But the civil servants in Whitehall!

And the UK/Brits really want to shame the EU on democracy?

Sovereignty: If Brexit people even knew what that meant, then they would be against NATO, The UN, Postal Union and even basic trade deals as they all impact the sovereignty of the UK.

Taking back control: Lovely...what control are the UK taking back? Brexit people like you have yet to tell the world what control they are taking back...so maybe you can explain it?

The poor and weak being listened to: What does that have to do with the EU. Don't vote Tory if this was a true issue....

So are you for once going to answer your own claims?



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I was explaining why people voted Leave - don't shoot the messenger.


You're trying to shoot the wrong person - I regularly point out that the UK is not a democracy, that its system is an antiquated sham, that the 'old school tie' is strong and pewrpetuates the same class interests, and that it should leave NATO etc

But don't kid yourself about the EU either. It has a massive democratic deficit, it's technocratic by design, it's remote and un-accountable, it doesn't listen to citizens, and it has a totally dys-functional single currency zone which has inflicted never ending austerity on Greece and which may yet implode over Italy.

Denial is not the solution.
 
Well IC - if after all this time you still don't know what were the motivations behind people voting for Brexit, then it only proves what a dialogue of the deaf this has been.


I suggest you research concepts around democracy, sovereignty, taking back control, and the poor, the weak, the powerless, the alienated being listened to.


I observe that Remainers tend to focus almost exclusively on money, and I suggest that this was far down the list of reasons why people voted Leave. Indeed, I think many Leave voters would willingly be a little more poor if it meant they had more power over their lives. And of course making the dis-possessed more powerful means making the establishment less powerful.

Small wonder that we have this almost zero sum game, a clash of the haves against the have nots. Yes, I'm generalising but little choice in a forum.

So your non answer is that you cannot point out benefits of Brexit - politically or economically. I asked for YOUR list of benefits. In answer, I give you PeteEU's responses however you gave no list.

I was explaining why people voted Leave - don't shoot the messenger.


You're trying to shoot the wrong person - I regularly point out that the UK is not a democracy, that its system is an antiquated sham, that the 'old school tie' is strong and pewrpetuates the same class interests, and that it should leave NATO etc

But don't kid yourself about the EU either. It has a massive democratic deficit, it's technocratic by design, it's remote and un-accountable, it doesn't listen to citizens, and it has a totally dys-functional single currency zone which has inflicted never ending austerity on Greece and which may yet implode over Italy.

Denial is not the solution.

You don't see how your reply here contradicts the non answer above? I asked for benefits and when challenged you say don't shoot the messenger.
 
IC - I haven't provided a list of benefits because I don't need to.


People voted to leave the EU for the broad reasons I outlined. Many will have other reasons. We all make choices.

But Leavers don't need to justify their decision to Remainers.
 
I was explaining why people voted Leave - don't shoot the messenger.


You're trying to shoot the wrong person - I regularly point out that the UK is not a democracy, that its system is an antiquated sham, that the 'old school tie' is strong and pewrpetuates the same class interests, and that it should leave NATO etc

But don't kid yourself about the EU either. It has a massive democratic deficit, it's technocratic by design, it's remote and un-accountable, it doesn't listen to citizens, and it has a totally dys-functional single currency zone which has inflicted never ending austerity on Greece and which may yet implode over Italy.

Denial is not the solution.

People voted leave for various xenophobic reasons, lies and manipulations on social media. There's nothing on offer from Brexit that is better than what we have withn the EU, including rules. The day we leave, we become rule takers, be it Europe, America, or the WTO. We do as they say, or we fail. We no longer control what the rules are.
Since we joined, we have successfuly argued our case to steer the EU to do what we want, and have obtained opt-outs to stuff we didn't, on a scale unparrallelled by any other member
 
IC - I haven't provided a list of benefits because I don't need to.

Would have been much more honest to simply say you couldn't prove any list because there is none.

But Leavers don't need to justify their decision to Remainers.

Weren't you posting on this page and the previous that Remainers need to listen to and understand Brexiteers? How can the two sides ever reconcile if Brexiteers don't have any genuine reasons for leaving or actual benefits for doing so?
Even te sovereignty argument fails when you read the vitriol poured on Parliament for exercising sovereignty these last 2-3 weeks.
 
Apparently Farage has a million pound slush fund and 200 candidates ready to form a "new" Brexit party. (Incredibly, UKIP is now too tight wing for him, the ersatz nazi)

Here's what he was saying before Leave won 52/48%

"In a 52 48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"
 
Would have been much more honest to simply say you couldn't prove any list because there is none.



Weren't you posting on this page and the previous that Remainers need to listen to and understand Brexiteers? How can the two sides ever reconcile if Brexiteers don't have any genuine reasons for leaving or actual benefits for doing so?
Even te sovereignty argument fails when you read the vitriol poured on Parliament for exercising sovereignty these last 2-3 weeks.


I could give you many benefits, but I'm not going to indulge you because my 'benefit' is your 'dis-benefit' and vice versa.


The point is that the UK voted to exit the EU, and that's exactly what needs to be / is being delivered.
 
I could give you many benefits, but I'm not going to indulge you because my 'benefit' is your 'dis-benefit' and vice versa ~

Unconvincing. You can't list any benefits otherwise you would have if there were any. I have asked several Brexiteers on this thread the last 3-4 months and had no answers. So much for trying to be understood.

Apparently Farage has a million pound slush fund and 200 candidates ready to form a "new" Brexit party ~

I actually have respect for him. I also really don't see the nazi that others did and his leaving UKIP as it went further and further right is proof.
 
Unconvincing. You can't list any benefits otherwise you would have if there were any. I have asked several Brexiteers on this thread the last 3-4 months and had no answers. So much for trying to be understood.



I actually have respect for him. I also really don't see the nazi that others did and his leaving UKIP as it went further and further right is proof.


This is an important point of principle:

a) Leavers don't need to justify their vote to anyone

b) Remain had the opportunity to explain the benefits of EU membership during the referendum. They failed to do so then, and haven't since.


Forgive me for not being inclined to justify anything to a group of people who have done little but make absurd and unbelievable forecasts of doom, insulted Leavers' intelligence, and failed to articulate benefits of EU membership.
 
Farage is a weasel slimeball in the Trump mode, making a fortune for himself and friends from the currency fluctuations. UKIP was always a party of extremist nutters from the far right, and the Brexit vote was their wet dream.
People voted leave because of years of Conservative-imposed austerity and welfare cuts, which bit deepest against the poorest, but had nothing to do with Europe.
It was an enormous mindless "**** You! to politicians on all sides.
Note that no charges have yet been brought despite lawbreaking by the Leave campaign.
 
A tweet from yesterday summarising the discussion with Europe

Andrew Parnall - The Original Don't Brexit Fixit


@dontbrexitfixit
Following Following @dontbrexitfixit
More

We're going to go No Deal
Ok
I mean it, we're going to go No Deal
Fine
Look, we're serious, it's No Deal, OK?
Ok
OK?
Yes, Ok
You need us more than we need you
We do?
You do!
Who told you that?
Farage!!!
Farage? �������������� [cries laughing emoli]

We're ****ed aren't we?
Yup!
****!

5:39 PM - 2 Feb 2019
2 replies 29 retweets 111 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 29 Like 111 Direct message
 
Farage is a weasel slimeball in the Trump mode, making a fortune for himself and friends from the currency fluctuations. UKIP was always a party of extremist nutters from the far right, and the Brexit vote was their wet dream.
People voted leave because of years of Conservative-imposed austerity and welfare cuts, which bit deepest against the poorest, but had nothing to do with Europe.
It was an enormous mindless "**** You! to politicians on all sides.
Note that no charges have yet been brought despite lawbreaking by the Leave campaign.


All neatly white-washes the desire to take control of making their own laws, of changing an immigration policy which discriminates purely on geography, and of being freed from a bureaucratic and continental supranational behemoth with plans for its own army etc.


If the EU was popular, and if remainers had managed to find any benefits of membership, they would have won the referendum.


But it isn't, and they didn't.
 
All neatly white-washes the desire to take control of making their own laws, of changing an immigration policy which discriminates purely on geography, and of being freed from a bureaucratic and continental supranational behemoth with plans for its own army etc.


If the EU was popular, and if remainers had managed to find any benefits of membership, they would have won the referendum.


But it isn't, and they didn't.


They broke election law to win.
 
IC - I haven't provided a list of benefits because I don't need to.
IOW you can NOT. Cuz you got nuffin'.

Habitually, one might add.
People voted to leave the EU for the broad reasons I outlined. Many will have other reasons. We all make choices.
sure thing, but quit whining when you're called out on having made the bad ones.

But Leavers don't need to justify their decision to Remainers.
said the fool who put his head into the gas oven because everybody else was doing it as well.
 
I could give you many benefits, but I'm not going to indulge you because my 'benefit' is your 'dis-benefit' and vice versa.
Translation: if I did (state benefits) I'd wind up being shown as not knowing what I'm talking about and I can't have that.

The point is that the UK voted to exit the EU, and that's exactly what needs to be / is being delivered.
52 pct is not the UK and an unfathomable number of those not knowing what they actually voted for in detail, provides no basis for acting upon with any sense of responsibility.
 
https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/04/uk-to-ease-customs-checks-on-eu-goods-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

LOL they are going to let in trucks without checks.... Wait a minute is that securing the border?

So anyone want to team up to smuggle stuff into the UK after the 29th March as it seems the door will be open...?

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However:

Rumours that the EU is going to let anything coming FROM the UK in without checks, remain so far unfounded.:mrgreen:
 
The recourse of the arrogantly self righteous to ritual abuse of Leavers is deeply disturbing on so many levels.

Not least of course because it illustrates that democracy is a poorly understood fair weather friend to these people, and because of the deep division and quasi hatred being stirred within the UK.

For all their contempt for 'stupid' Leavers, the irony is of course that Remainers lost the argument in 2016 by blowing a lead, and in the years since have still been unable to convince the poor ignorant Leave people of their terrible mistake. A space alien might ask whether these self appointed arbiters of righteousness are even half way as clever as they think they are.

Not for me to answer, but it seems clear to me that the UK's antiquated political system is cracking under the pressure of the establishment elite fearing that they've lost control and not being able to put the 'stupid' working class Leave voters back in their box.
 
Interesting article on how Brexit has exposed the fragility of UK democracy:

https://unherd.com/2019/02/how-parliament-disdains-the-people/

The Burkean philosophy on MPs not being delegates but representatives has now become the standard line for expressing the relationship between MPs and the people who voted for them. But we shouldn’t be too comfortable with it. Burke was a terrible constituency MP. He visited his Bristol seat infrequently, and he disagreed with the city’s merchants over opening up trade to the Irish. So when Burke told the voters of his Bristol seat on the day of his election in 1774 that “your representative owes you … his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving, you if he sacrifices it to your opinion” he was, in a fancy way, telling them to get stuffed – that he would vote however he likes.

Burke was no great fan of democracy. He was terrified at the prospect of a French revolution coming to Britain to destroy the established social order of church and nobility. Burke believed that government should be the preserve of the “natural aristocracy”. And he had little time for the views of uneducated, common people whom he thought could be easily swayed by the those who would appeal to their emotions and their prejudices.

This Burkean line, of course, is remarkably similar to a view that has often been repeated by Remainers – that poor, simple, ordinary people didn’t really know what they were doing when they voted to leave because they were being manipulated by demagogues and liars.

Fast forward to our current political quagmire. On the 9th June 2015, the House of Commons voted by 544 votes to 53 to have a referendum on our membership of the EU. In other words, the Commons itself agreed by a huge majority to have an exercise in direct democracy to break the Parliamentary log-jam over Europe. And what many MPs initially accepted at least was that such an exercise, albeit it advisory and no legally binding, nonetheless morally trumped the representative ‘think for yourself’ functions of an MP. Going into the lobby in early 2017 to vote for the triggering of Article 50, many MPs felt obliged to act more like delegates, ventriloquising the people’s will. And many deeply resented it.

What Brexit has exposed is how much our supposedly democratic system is weighted against democracy itself. When an exercise of direct democracy is conducted within a representative system, the representatives generally don’t like it. For the very idea of representative government still contains a sort of Burkean snobbishness about the general will.

The battle over whether Brexit will be implemented is not just a battle about Brexit per se, it is also a battle about who is boss: the people or MPs. Brexit may be an exercise in repatriating power from Europe to Westminster. But it is also a reminder that the moral source of political authority lies ultimately with the people and not with politicians.
 
The recourse of the arrogantly self righteous to ritual abuse of Leavers is deeply disturbing on so many levels.

Not least of course because it illustrates that democracy is a poorly understood fair weather friend to these people, and because of the deep division and quasi hatred being stirred within the UK.

For all their contempt for 'stupid' Leavers, the irony is of course that Remainers lost the argument in 2016 by blowing a lead, and in the years since have still been unable to convince the poor ignorant Leave people of their terrible mistake. A space alien might ask whether these self appointed arbiters of righteousness are even half way as clever as they think they are.
Churchill already said that every nation has some 20 pct idiot content and that one has to live with that. Only thing to add to that statement is that he clearly got the figure wrong by round about 32 pct where the UK is concerned.

No idea how that would pan out in St. Petersburg altogether but where Savushkina is concerned, thanks for not leaving us guessing.
Not for me to answer,
indeed not, nor, as you constantly demonstrate, for you to assess in any way.
but it seems clear to me that the UK's antiquated political system is cracking under the pressure of the establishment elite fearing that they've lost control and not being able to put the 'stupid' working class Leave voters back in their box.
Oh, don't you worry. The leave voters will be back in their box soon enough. Put there by the very same that fooled them into voting as they did.

But then how would you know that, seeing how you constantly demonstrate knowing nothing? Be that within or without even your home country.
 
Interesting article on how Brexit has exposed the fragility of UK democracy:.......................~
If you are desirous of peddling here the underlying message that the government should fear the people and not the people the government, that's all very well except for the fact fact that it's coming from the likes of you.

As such you'd greatly improve your credibility problem if you took that concept and applied it back at your home.

You know, the place where the people and even the neighbours fear YOUR government and have every reason to.

Ye gods, the unfaltering supporter of a thug regime sanctimoniously preaching to others about democracy concepts that he simply doesn't understand because he has no way of so doing.

Priceless.:roll:
 
With Liam Fox having accused Brussels of irresponsibility if it continues to refuse re-opening negotiations, it'll only be a matter of days after a no-deal crashout (if indeed that occurs) before the blame-the-Euros game finds a new narrative.

Which will be (and no doubt swallowed by the brainless) that the UK left the EU because the EU kicked it out.

That Leave voters have problems with being summarily branded as idiots is of course understandable, what with the verdict hardly being a just one, at least in its broad-brush approach.

But when you have such idiots speaking for you, it's like lying down with dogs and then complaining about the fleas.:roll:
 
Hi everyone. Some may remember me, and a few not to fondly either. I was an anti-EU activist, and had been since 1998. Attempts to acquire a Referendum on Lisbon Treaty failed. Such is life. However, attempts to acquire an in/out EU Referendum succeeded, and LEAVE won. Now, before continuing, I should point out that I am now a retired activist. With the exception of following events as they unfold, I spend my retirement on things like playing The Elder Scrolls Online (European Servers) using a PS4.

I was only one of thousands of activists that contributed a great deal of time to getting the UK out of the EU. I often used press/broadcast sources to support a Leave vote, but that was not my main source. I, like many others, went straight to the source. Both the UK and EU Parliament archives. Note: Rely on press/broadcasts with caution. National press/broadcasters usually abuse their positions to influence voters to vote how they want them to vote. Examples are the Express and Telegraph (Leave supporting publications), or Guardian and Independent (remain supporting publications). Much of what is/was reported by either not being entirely accurate and/or slanted to their readership (Leave/Remain).

After reading through many of the comments here, I could not help but laugh, especially where certain posters were calling Leave voters idiots, and implying they did not know what they were voting for. That one had me in hysterics. Why? How many remain voters knew what they were voting for? Be honest!

There is not going to be a second Referendum. Leave won, and the UK will be leaving with or without a deal. Note, the one thing that was made perfectly clear prior to Referendum vote was that the UK would not only be leaving the EU but the Single Market. There were more than enough publications/broadcasts from both Leave and Remain campaigning MPs/MEPs stating that very thing prior to vote. If you want proof, surf the net, and include YouTube if you want to hear it straight from the horses mouth, which included the then PM David Cameron.

Brexit looks bleak in the short term, and was to be expected. I even said as much at the time prior to vote.

Leave won, and the UK will be leaving the EU shortly with or without a deal.
 
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