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[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

How will Brexit go?


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Interesting perspective from Ireland which matches my own views about the ridiculous anti democratic system in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit-britain-state-politics-fit-for-purpose


Brexit plays out a conflict between Them and Us, but it is surely obvious after this week that the problem is not with Them on the continent. It’s with the British Us, the unravelling of an imagined community. The visible collapse of the Westminster polity this week may be a result of Brexit, but Brexit itself is the result of the invisible subsidence of the political order over recent decades.

t may seem strange to call this slow collapse invisible since so much of it is obvious: the deep uncertainties about the union after the Good Friday agreement of 1998 and the establishment of the Scottish parliament the following year; the consequent rise of English nationalism; the profound regional inequalities within England itself; the generational divergence of values and aspirations; the undermining of the welfare state and its promise of shared citizenship; the contempt for the poor and vulnerable expressed through austerity; the rise of a sensationally self-indulgent and clownish ruling class. But the collective effects of these interrelated developments do seem to have been barely visible within the political mainstream until David Cameron accidentally took the lid off by calling a referendum and asking people to endorse the status quo.

What we see with the lid off and the fog of fantasies at last beginning to dissipate is the truth that Brexit is much less about Britain’s relationship with the EU than it is about Britain’s relationship with itself. It is the projection outwards of an inner turmoil. An archaic political system had carried on even while its foundations in a collective sense of belonging were crumbling. Brexit in one way alone has done a real service: it has forced the old system to play out its death throes in public. The spectacle is ugly, but at least it shows that a fissiparous four-nation state cannot be governed without radical social and constitutional change.

European leaders have continually expressed exasperation that the British have really been negotiating not with them, but with each other. But perhaps it is time to recognise that there is a useful truth in this: Brexit is really just the vehicle that has delivered a fraught state to a place where it can no longer pretend to be a settled and functioning democracy. Brexit’s work is done – everyone can now see that the Westminster dodo is dead. It is time to move on from the pretence that the problem with British democracy is the EU and to recognise that it is with itself. After Brextinction there must be a whole new political ecosystem. Drop the dead dodo, end the mad race for a meaningless prize, and start talking about who you want to be.
 
So that must mean no access to Europe and the rest of the world until the UK can renegotiate new deals... right? Think that is what a large number of the Brexit crowd was thinking about? Doubt it..


It could mean all sorts of things ........ including EFTA or no deal.


But the range of options available does not, and can not, mean Remaining. But then democracy is a sham in the UK, so I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was asked to vote again, although I still doubt that will happen.
 
It could mean all sorts of things

And that's the problem. "Brexit" meant all sorts to all people.

The clear thing was leaving - where is the mention on the ballot paper of "how?"
 
It could mean all sorts of things ........ including EFTA or no deal.
The question was not about what it could mean (or could have meant), the salient point here is that no meaning was offered at all in the ask.

But the range of options available does not, and can not, mean Remaining.
Since you've here moved from the conditional to the simple present, you have as little a clue on what options will become available as everybody else has. So your "assessment" claim of what is not and cannot is worthless of itself.

But then democracy is a sham in the UK,
What you don't understand about democracy (and in that you are somewhat blameless, seeing where you hail from) is that this current botch is actually a prime example of democracy working most magnificently. In that no other system would have been remotely capable of allowing such a bunch of nincompoops to even approach office or, more sadly still, to remain there until the next elections. As such democracy allows the people to elect a bunch of idiots, should the people choose to, or be too ill-informed of just plain stupid to avoid it.
I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was asked to vote again, although I still doubt that will happen.
Even another people's vote on the issue would not serve to support the asininity of your claim that democracy in the UK is a sham. Quite simply because supplying the opportunity to either correct or confirm a previous decision is also how democracy works and even phrasing options as stupidly as before would take nothing from that.

Beyond which I personally have passed the point where anything would surprise me in this mess.
 
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And that's the problem. "Brexit" meant all sorts to all people.

The clear thing was leaving - where is the mention on the ballot paper of "how?"
It's what you get when you try to squeeze complexities into a binary option poll.

But then we both know that.

That problem will incidentally persist, should parliament deign to pass it to the people once more.
 
No. There was never a chance the deal negotiated by May with the EU could get through Parliament.
To cut thru all the obfuscations and goal post shifting that's meanwhile occurred, you still owe an answer as to how you know what the EU leadership believed when negotiating.

That's what started this, remember?

If your assessment is simply down to things being and having been outside your scope of imagination, that is of course okay too.
 
To cut thru all the obfuscations and goal post shifting that's meanwhile occurred, you still owe an answer as to how you know what the EU leadership believed when negotiating.

That's what started this, remember?

If your assessment is simply down to things being and having been outside your scope of imagination, that is of course okay too.

Anyone who can count and who knew the past and current positions of MP's knew there was no majority in Parliament for this Brexit. This would have been apparent to EU leadership as well.
 
Anyone who can count and who knew the past and current positions of MP's knew there was no majority in Parliament for this Brexit. This would have been apparent to EU leadership as well.
Okay.
 
Anyone who can count and who knew the past and current positions of MP's knew there was no majority in Parliament for this Brexit. This would have been apparent to EU leadership as well.
Yes. There was never a majority in Parliament for this Brexit.

In other words, you are wasting other people's time on this thread.
 
Speaking of people unable to tell the truth...

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Boris Johnson, cosignatory with Gove and Labour MP Gisela Stuart on a letter warning about Turkey's possible membership and "that the only way to avoid having common borders with Turkey is to Vote Leave and take back control on 23 June."

This was today, BoJo speaking at the JCB factory - JCB who where facing fines from the EU with €39.6m for antitrust breaches....
 
Interesting perspective from Ireland which matches my own views blah blah blah:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit-britain-state-politics-fit-for-purpose

... It is time to move on from the pretence that the problem with British democracy is the EU and to recognise that it is with itself. ... there must be a whole new political ecosystem..

There is quite a lot of 'No sh*t, Sherlock' about that article but thank you for clarifying exactly why Remain has to be one of the options in the putative second referendum.

The problem with the 'whole new political ecosystem' theory takes us back to a referendum no-one talks about, the 2011 one to change the electoral system.

Because until the 'first past the post' system is replaced, nothing will be different. The failures of the SDP and more recently UKIP to gain any Parliamentary traction show why the odds are stacked against any breakaway Tory, Labour, or combination thereof grouping prospering in a general election.

Not saying Spain is an ideal of monarchic democracy, but the successful insertion of Ciudadanos, Podemos and Vox into the 'ecosystem' there shows how it can be done.
 
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There is quite a lot of 'No sh*t, Sherlock' about that article but thank you for clarifying exactly why Remain has to be one of the options in the putative second referendum.

The problem with the 'whole new political ecosystem' theory takes us back to a referendum no-one talks about, the 2011 one to change the electoral system.

Because until the 'first past the post' system is replaced, nothing will be different. The failures of the SDP and more recently UKIP to gain any Parliamentary traction show why the odds are stacked against any breakaway Tory, Labour, or combination thereof grouping prospering in a general election.

Not saying Spain is an ideal of monarchic democracy, but the successful insertion of Ciudadanos, Podemos and Vox into the 'ecosystem' there shows how it can be done.
The UK has never been a democracy for the simple fact of the House of Lords. On top of that you have the first past the post system which is crazy. The irony was always there when Brits accused the EU or others for being anti democratic....

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Second referendum - will never happen. This article explains just some of the reasons why, but the reason I quote below is compulsive in itself:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...y-unlikely-to-happen-and-would-be-disastrous/


Many others would be furious about what they would rightly see as a stitch-up by powerful and over-privileged people who are incapable of accepting the verdict of the electorate when it gives the ‘wrong’ answer. The prospect of simply re-running a ballot until politicians are happy with the outcome stinks, and a lot of voters dislike it on principle, regardless of which side they backed in 2016. Second referendum fans don’t seem to have thought very hard about the possible results of their dream. There’s always the possibility that they would lose, having provoked a backlash from voters who conclude it is necessary to keep repeating the message until the political class listens. Or they win, likely on a reduced turnout having disillusioned millions of voters. In which case, nobody would have any reason to honour the outcome of a second ballot when the first was simply ignored.

So the reality of a second referendum is far less attractive than the fantasy on sale. It resolves nothing, but would guarantee a longer, more drawn-out and bitter battle over Brexit, while doing added harm to what remains of people’s faith in our political system. This is one unicorn that really should be put down.
 
Second referendum - will never happen. This article explains just some of the reasons why,
With you being as ignorant on the basis functions of democracy as you show to be, it is no surprise that you do not understand the article you cite either.

It does not, as you in your usual disingenuous manner imply, state that a second referendum will never happen. What it does state is the high unlikelihood.
 
At this point, the choices are limited to only two options. One is a new referendum. If Brexit wins, the outcome of this effort will be the same as the second option. The second option is a hard Brexit. So in reality there are only two possible outcomes now. Remain or hard Brexit.
 
No. I was answering a question.

Sometimes when another person asks you for clarification or examples - it's to aid the discussion so the next time on this thread when you are asked for clarification for a statement you have made, could you try answering the question directly and in a more helpful way next time?

It helps with the discussion.
 
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