Myopic Scottish National Party

With their devolved administration powers why doesn't the SNP try to govern Scotland properly rather than constantly ranting on about independence?

Eanto said:

With their devolved administration powers why doesn't the SNP try to govern Scotland properly rather than constantly ranting on about independence?

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Because it knows how to do the latter well enough to stay in power.

Eanto said:

With their devolved administration powers why doesn't the SNP try to govern Scotland properly rather than constantly ranting on about independence?

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we want to control our destiny within the UK we control very little of anything 13% of Welfare and 30% of taxes ... the UK is finished they failed to deliver the federalism they promised and Scotland voted 62% to remain in the EU and governed by a party that people in Scotland utterly despises within the EU we will control the vast amount of everything ... the problem is the Unionist are utterly panic stricken because they know they cannot win they see the writing on the wall for their so called precious union they had their chance and they failed

we have over a 1,000 years of partnership with European nations we are a European nation and if the English want to be little englanders then let them

But if you are within the EU you eventually will be swallowed up in the would-be superstate anyway. The EU already has a vast amount of power - something like 60-70% of British laws and administrative rules originate there, and it has a myriad of areas in which it claims competency through QM voting. And this is only the beginning. It is also insatiable in its desire for more and more integration, according to the principles of the Monnet Method .

I'd be more sympathetic to the SNP if they didn't seem to want to break away from the UK only to throw themselves at the feet of the EU. At least have a little bit of self-respect and try to stand up for yourself as an independent nation.

Don't be taken in by Brexiteer lies, the actual number of EU regulations requiring Britain to make new law is 13%. much of it is already covered by UK law, and much of it doesn't apply to Britain, such as regulationsof an olive oil industry we don't have. It's specious BS.
Scotland (not just the SNP) is fed up with being sidelined as a junior partner. Sturgeon has spent the time since the Brexit vote knocking on Downing Street's door to open negotiations on behalf of the nation who voted stay, and has found that door slammed shut. May has merely compounded the alienation already felt by the reneging on the promises made by the Tory government to the Scots during the indyref.

You appear to have missed the "administrative rules" part of the sentence. At least 60% of laws and administrative rules originate there. It is true that some of these rules don't mean much in Britain, such as those on olive oil, but the vast majority do. And it is also true that this doesn't include that not insignificant amount that originate in Brussels and yet that can't easily be traced there. There are a lot of impulses that start in Brussels and get pushed onto Britain without it being explicit. It even turned out, long afterwards, that something like Prescott's regional push largely originated there. There are a myriad of areas where we have given up regulatory authority to the continental level, such as in air traffic control, for example. It becomes hard to tell where regulations and actions in these areas are originating, as the European level institutions often like to disguise it. This is also ignoring the fact that Brussels has long ago co-opted the British civil service and most MPs, and therefore the line between what originates in Britain compared to Brussels is again blurred - many ideas and impulses originate in Brussels and are passed along. Although technically parliament is still supreme, we have reached a stage where institutions like the COREPER are more important legislative and executive bodies in practice. I suggest reading some good background reading on the EU. Booker and North's The Great Deception is a detailed and well-researched account. If you wish to balance it out with a Europhile account Hugo Young's work is good, though somewhat myopic (after you have read Booker and North, you will see Young and the Europhiles are somewhat blinkered - I would recommend reading them in this order). These works outline the true extent of EU power and influence in Britain, and the long-term goal of the Eurocrats, from the days Monnet and Spaak onwards, to achieve something like a superstate. The biography of Monnet by Duchene is a good accompaniment.

So, as I said, what is the point in trying to leave Britain to go cap in hand to the EU? At least try and pretend you won't to support yourself.

Scotland is currently part of Britain. I'm not sure why Sturgeon's rather strange Europhilism should lead to any sort of negotiations at this point. What is to be negotiated?

Eanto said:

With their devolved administration powers why doesn't the SNP try to govern Scotland properly rather than constantly ranting on about independence?

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Every district in Scotland voted to stay in Europe. Had Brexit been on the table before the referendum the result might have been very different.

Manc Skipper said:

Don't be taken in by Brexiteer lies, the actual number of EU regulations requiring Britain to make new law is 13%. much of it is already covered by UK law, and much of it doesn't apply to Britain, such as regulationsof an olive oil industry we don't have. It's specious BS.
Scotland (not just the SNP) is fed up with being sidelined as a junior partner. Sturgeon has spent the time since the Brexit vote knocking on Downing Street's door to open negotiations on behalf of the nation who voted stay, and has found that door slammed shut. May has merely compounded the alienation already felt by the reneging on the promises made by the Tory government to the Scots during the indyref.

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i don't listen to these people i know what the EU is about, i knew everything they said during the brexit campaign were all lies ... they even seem to think they will get a preferential deal with the EU because they are English etc ... no free movement no single market/trade deal

Grand Mal said:

Every district in Scotland voted to stay in Europe. Had Brexit been on the table before the referendum the result might have been very different.

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we would have won it was central to their campaign

Wessexman said:

You appear to have missed the "administrative rules" part of the sentence. At least 60% of laws and administrative rules originate there.

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And most you already had... all that is been done is to harmonize the rules across the EU. And again it is not 60%, far far far from it.

PeteEU said:

And most you already had... all that is been done is to harmonize the rules across the EU. And again it is not 60%, far far far from it.

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I see no reason to think we already had them, and the laws and rules are certainly not just harmonisation by most people's definition - like when the EU randomly banned open sauce containers in restaurants (one of the few directives quickly overturned by public clamour). 60% is probably a conservative estimate.

Wessexman said:

I see no reason to think we already had them, and the laws and rules are certainly not just harmonisation by most people's definition - like when the EU randomly banned open sauce containers in restaurants (one of the few directives quickly overturned by public clamour). 60% is probably a conservative estimate.

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Open sauce containers? Never happened. The EU tried to put in place regulations on olive oil containers in public places sure, but open sauce containers? And the olive oil containers was a proposal, and it never passed.

And the fact that you dont think that most of the regulations are some that you already had.. only shows how little you know of how government works and especially the UK government. Do you really think that the UK had no regulations on say agriculture or workers rights or how much crap that is allowed in the food before they entered the EEC? That the UK did not have regulations that prevented competition or regulations that prevented foreigen companies ? Are you that naive? Or are you saying that the UK would not have implemented clean energy legislation if it was not for the EU? Seriously?

Yes, sorry, it was olive oil. It wasn't a proposal in the sense of a thought bubble. It wasn't fully implemented but it had worked its way through most of the black box of the comitology and would have been but for a rare backdown under public pressure.

Pete, you seem to be saying that because the UK might has its own regulations in a broad area, that means any EU regulations in the same area are just harmonisation. Also you don't seem to recoginise that in many ways (not all, of course) the contents don't matter. We are British and don't want to be ruled by others. If, as a slave, my master mostly chooses for me the options I would have chosen anyway, that does not mean I am not a slave.

Wessexman said:

If, as a slave, my master mostly chooses for me the options I would have chosen anyway, that does not mean I am not a slave.

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Excellent argument for the Scots to take back control of their own country.

That's up to them, though it only makes sense if they aren't going to throw themselves straight into the EU. Personally, I think federalism would be best. I think we Brits are and aren't countrymen - I'm English first but then British. I think federalism captures this.

an excellent analogy Andalublue

here is the reality facing Scotland currently

Croatia has 4.4 million people and Scotland has 5.4 million Croatia has 13 MEPs Scotland has only 6 .. Croatia gets a vote on the EU council and has control/leads EU for 6 months in a 28 state rotation ... Scotland has none of that

That graph gives no explanation for its claims. It is very hard to quantity these things - what does control mean? Besides, there is a lot of collusion and a lot of blurring of lines, as mentioned above - at all stages there has been a shameful surrender of sovereignty by our politicians and bureaucrats. In practical terms, though, we have reached the stage of a sharing of sovereignty and where the EU is probably the premier legislative and regulative arena for Britain. The graph, therefore, doesn't seem to represent reality.

Wessexman said:

I'd be more sympathetic to the SNP if they didn't seem to want to break away from the UK only to throw themselves at the feet of the EU. At least have a little bit of self-respect and try to stand up for yourself as an independent nation.

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They're not really the same, and no amount of questionable stats and graphs change the reality.

Scotland needs permission from Westminster to hold an independence referendum. The United Kingdom didn't need permission from Brussels to do theirs.

Ben K. said:

Scotland needs permission from Westminster to hold an independence referendum. The United Kingdom didn't need permission from Brussels to do theirs.

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Excellent point.

Andalublue said:

Excellent point.

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Its a stolen point I must admit.

Hope you're keeping well Andy.

Ben K. said:

Its a stolen point I must admit.

Hope you're keeping well Andy.

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I am extremely well and happy with life, Ben. Nice to see you again.

Ben K. said:

They're not really the same, and no amount of questionable stats and graphs change the reality.

Scotland needs permission from Westminster to hold an independence referendum. The United Kingdom didn't need permission from Brussels to do theirs.

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What you are alluding to is the fact of de jure sovereignty held by the British parliament. I recognise this (although technically, the Westminster parliament includes the Scottish MPs and governs for the whole British nation). I even alluded to it. But, as someone who still believes in the nation-state, the fact we possess de jure sovereignty and some control over ourselves is hardly much of a comforting thought - that we have lost so much sovereignty and control, without it even being transparently declared, is the disgrace.