• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Scottish Indy Ref part two.

Sherman123 said:
I hope there is no referendum, and that if there is it is defeated. I'm sick of this nationalistic atomization of countries, it's chauvinistic and regressive.
Click to expand...

Well it won't happen now until brexit is completed. It will happen though but it will be interesting to see how the post brexit economy influences Scottish voters. Personally I don't think brexit will have that much of a negative impact on our economy and that will give Scotland a tough choice especially the middle class. Stick with what you know or throw your lot in with the EU, the latter being a scary choice for many older scots.
 
Sherman123 said:
I hope there is no referendum, and that if there is it is defeated. I'm sick of this nationalistic atomization of countries, it's chauvinistic and regressive.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but if Scotland were to vote to leave Britain and stay in Europe...
 
Higgins86 said:
Well it won't happen now until brexit is completed. It will happen though but it will be interesting to see how the post brexit economy influences Scottish voters. Personally I don't think brexit will have that much of a negative impact on our economy and that will give Scotland a tough choice especially the middle class. Stick with what you know or throw your lot in with the EU, the latter being a scary choice for many older scots.
Click to expand...

Brexit's already a ****ing financial disaster and it hasn't even started. To believe that we can leave the biggest tariff free trading bloc in the world while negotiating similar or better terms than what we already have is frankly delusional.
Scots old and young watch events four hunderd miles away in another country, where their wishes are ignored, and they don't wonder at all about whether or not they wll be better off. They were told that if they voted to leave (Indy 1) they would be forced into a race to the bottom for a low-corporate tax, low wage economy. That's what's happening in England now, so they might as well be independent and at least have an accountable government, elected by themselves and not the English.
Sturgeon may well press ahead with a referendum to demonstrate just how badly broken May's Britain is.
 
Higgins86 said:
Well it won't happen now until brexit is completed. It will happen though but it will be interesting to see how the post brexit economy influences Scottish voters. Personally I don't think brexit will have that much of a negative impact on our economy and that will give Scotland a tough choice especially the middle class. Stick with what you know or throw your lot in with the EU, the latter being a scary choice for many older scots.
Click to expand...

it is not Theresa May's choice to make she has only 1 MP in Scotland out of 59 ... if she refuses to invoke a section 30 Scotland will hold one without Westminster's say so
 
Manc Skipper said:
Brexit's already a ****ing financial disaster and it hasn't even started. To believe that we can leave the biggest tariff free trading bloc in the world while negotiating similar or better terms than what we already have is frankly delusional.
Scots old and young watch events four hunderd miles away in another country, where their wishes are ignored, and they don't wonder at all about whether or not they wll be better off. They were told that if they voted to leave (Indy 1) they would be forced into a race to the bottom for a low-corporate tax, low wage economy. That's what's happening in England now, so they might as well be independent and at least have an accountable government, elected by themselves and not the English.
Sturgeon may well press ahead with a referendum to demonstrate just how badly broken May's Britain is.
Click to expand...

It would be hard to think of a trade deal worse, than one that locks us into tariff free trade with economies that compete against us.
We want a free trade deal with those countries who make stuff we want, and want stuff we make. Sympathetic economies. New Zealand for example has food but no industry to make cars. We buy food and we sell cars. Free trade deal please.

Germany on the other hand sells more cars here than we do there. Tariffs please. This is a competing economy. Not a sympathetic one.
We have a trade imbalance. Tariffs are required now. We are still in financial crisis. We cannot afford to get into any more debt.
Our children and are grandchildren will be paying off our debts.
They will be born into servitude.

Born into servitude of Germany. WTF are you thinking of free trade with the EU.
Millions died. I kid you not. Millions have died and you would sell your children into servitude of their enemy. You would waste all their sacrifice.
Do not even dream that this could ever last.
 
Baff said:
Born into servitude of Germany. WTF are you thinking of free trade with the EU.
Millions died. I kid you not. Millions have died and you would sell your children into servitude of their enemy. You would waste all their sacrifice.
Do not even dream that this could ever last.
Click to expand...

you have lost the plot ... are you comparing Nazi Germany to the Benevolent British Empire that enslaved millions of Africans, built concentration camps for the Boers in South Africa, enslaved and subjugated
entire continents and peoples and treated them as 3rd class citizens on their own lands and strip mined their countries of their resources and goods ... you wear rose tinted glasses the British empire was the opposite of benevolent it was as evil as the Nazis they were fighting against ... name me just 1 country that wants to be under the benevolence of the British empire again ... just 1 country ... around the former Empire the union flag is called the "Butcher's Apron"
 
I have a strong emotional need to respect my living and dead loved ones.

Those who risked and gave their lives to prevent something which to you and I are just empty words.
 
Last edited:
Godric1970 said:
you have lost the plot ... are you comparing Nazi Germany to the Benevolent British Empire that enslaved millions of Africans, built concentration camps for the Boers in South Africa, enslaved and subjugated
entire continents and peoples and treated them as 3rd class citizens on their own lands and strip mined their countries of their resources and goods ... you wear rose tinted glasses the British empire was the opposite of benevolent it was as evil as the Nazis they were fighting against ... name me just 1 country that wants to be under the benevolence of the British empire again ... just 1 country ... around the former Empire the union flag is called the "Butcher's Apron"
Click to expand...

I totally disagree the British Empire with ALL its faults is comparable to Nazi Germany.
 
Godric1970 said:
you talk nonsense my boy support for the SNP is still growing

Scotland is a small country you say ... Scotland is larger than Belgium and the Netherlands combined are you saying they are to small

if May blocks the section 30 next week she will only increase support for the SNP and Independence and Holyrood still has a yes majority with the Scottish greens ... the SNP had 250,000 more votes in 2016 than they had in 2011 47% of Scots voted SNP more than the Tories and Labour combined
Click to expand...

Population of Scotland: 5.4m. Of Belgium: 11.2m. Of the Netherlands: 16.8m. That puts the "Scotland is bigger than Belgium and Netherlands" claim into rather a different light.
 
Few empires can claim to have done more to stop Nazi Germany than the British one.
If you are looking for closet Nazi's in Britain, you won't find many. Try Ukraine. They'll join the EU. At least the Nazi part will.
 
Godric1970 said:
it is not Theresa May's choice to make she has only 1 MP in Scotland out of 59 ... if she refuses to invoke a section 30 Scotland will hold one without Westminster's say so
Click to expand...

Constitutional questions are not a devolved area. So it is only the UK government that can order a referendum. Sturgeon could arrange an opinion poll but it would not be a referendum.

Sturgeon's tactic is to call for a referendum in the hope that May must refuse. The intention is to make the wicked English appear even more evil than usual. Sturgeon, who is no fool, knows she would lose a re-run and will avoid having a new referendum indefinitely. Imo May should call the SNP's bluff.

The question of whether a three hundred year old Union should be ended is a matter for all its citizens. So next time the English, the Welsh and the Northern Irish should also have a vote. My own view is that a sulky, whining 300 year adolesence is too long and that it time for the Scots to grow up. I was very disappointing whn their courage failed them two and a half years ago.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yeah, but if Scotland were to vote to leave Britain and stay in Europe...
Click to expand...
How does this lie keep alive?! There is no staying in Europe. The EU has made it perfectly clear that even if Scotland were to become an independent country today, it wouldn't be a member of the EU and would have to apply to join just like any other prospective member.

On top of that, even if there was an "IndyRef2" at the end of 2018 with a "Yes" result, the UK will almost inevitably leave the EU by March 2019 at the latest. There is no way they could go through all of the diplomatic and legal process to separate Scotland in those three months (that'd probably take longer than Brexit) so Scotland would be leaving a non-EU country.
 
Sweden said:
Constitutional questions are not a devolved area. So it is only the UK government that can order a referendum. Sturgeon could arrange an opinion poll but it would not be a referendum.
Click to expand...
A referendum is a referendum. If it is seen to be fairly held and representative of the people then it cannot be ignored. Donald Duck could hold it and it would still be valid if enough people participated in it and trusted the result to be accurate.

What the UK can do is hold UK wide counter referendums of it's own. Do we want devolved parliaments in the UK?
That gets ride of Holyrood.
Do we want the Barnett formula. That gets rid of the tribute.
Do we want our elected representatives to represent equal numbers of people each constituency? That gets rid of loads of the SNP in Westminster.
Do we want to be in a union with the Scottish. That gets rid of the Union!

It's not just the Scots who can play the referendum game.
The tail doesn't wag the dog.
 
HonestJoe said:
How does this lie keep alive?! There is no staying in Europe. The EU has made it perfectly clear that even if Scotland were to become an independent country today, it wouldn't be a member of the EU and would have to apply to join just like any other prospective member.

On top of that, even if there was an "IndyRef2" at the end of 2018 with a "Yes" result, the UK will almost inevitably leave the EU by March 2019 at the latest. There is no way they could go through all of the diplomatic and legal process to separate Scotland in those three months (that'd probably take longer than Brexit) so Scotland would be leaving a non-EU country.
Click to expand...

Why do you think an independent Scotland would be denied membership in Europe?
It might be all academic anyway- we'll see if the EU still exists at the end of this year, but the point is that Brexit came after the referendum and the vote might have gone different had they been together, or in the other order.
 
Not so much denied, as not in it until it joins.

The reason for thinking it is that when the EU was asked about it, that what they said. Scotland is not currently a member of the EU.
 
Grand Mal said:
Why do you think an independent Scotland would be denied membership in Europe?
It might be all academic anyway- we'll see if the EU still exists at the end of this year, but the point is that Brexit came after the referendum and the vote might have gone different had they been together, or in the other order.
Click to expand...
Coulda. Woulda. Shoulda.
It wasn't and it isn't.

Being a sore loser doesn't change much.
 
Baff said:
Coulda. Woulda. Shoulda.
It wasn't and it isn't.

Being a sore loser doesn't change much.
Click to expand...

Neither does being a snide, snippy juvenile.
 
Grand Mal said:
Why do you think an independent Scotland would be denied membership in Europe?
Click to expand...
I never said they're be denied membership (though Spain wouldn't make it easy), only that they won't remain a member if they become independent. There have been a lot of people have been trying to create the false image of an easy transition, staying in or moving back in to the EU for an independent Scotland even long before the first referendum and that needs to be challenged.
 
Sweden said:
Population of Scotland: 5.4m. Of Belgium: 11.2m. Of the Netherlands: 16.8m. That puts the "Scotland is bigger than Belgium and Netherlands" claim into rather a different light.
Click to expand...
yeah and we have about 20 times their natural resources our oil and gas does not finish at the North sea our entire maritime waters has trillions worth of untapped oil and gas in today's prices North Sea is worth £1.5 trillion our west coast reserves dwarf that figure
https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/new...ntapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
 
HonestJoe said:
I never said they're be denied membership (though Spain wouldn't make it easy), only that they won't remain a member if they become independent. There have been a lot of people have been trying to create the false image of an easy transition, staying in or moving back in to the EU for an independent Scotland even long before the first referendum and that needs to be challenged.
Click to expand...



Spain has already said they wouldn't veto our membership ... leading figures around EU stated Scotland would be fast tracked

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/841712781288177666
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxH45ivUomw
https://amp.twimg.com/v/a9b88577-e402-4c83-a254-ce32affde399
 
Baff said:
A referendum is a referendum. If it is seen to be fairly held and representative of the people then it cannot be ignored. Donald Duck could hold it and it would still be valid if enough people participated in it and trusted the result to be accurate.

What the UK can do is hold UK wide counter referendums of it's own. Do we want devolved parliaments in the UK?
That gets ride of Holyrood.
Do we want the Barnett formula. That gets rid of the tribute.
Do we want our elected representatives to represent equal numbers of people each constituency? That gets rid of loads of the SNP in Westminster.
Do we want to be in a union with the Scottish. That gets rid of the Union!

It's not just the Scots who can play the referendum game.
The tail doesn't wag the dog.
Click to expand...
and what do you think would happen if UK closed Holyrood
 
It would also close Wales and Irelands too. Stormont and whatever Wales calls theirs.

Saving an enormous amount of money for everyone in what is in essence a fifth wheel operation. A bureaucratic replication of existing and operating governmental structures.

Outside of that, not much.
Continued mewling and wailing from assorted separatist movements, who lets face it are never going to stop mewling and wailing whatever anyone does.


In short I expect it to carry on just as it did before they were built. Have they added anything? other than a few billion extra in debt for our children to repay? No. Just more dissent. An extra bunch of idiots arguing over the same decisions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom