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The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W:39]

Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

Well, it's a matter of political rallies and such that has nothing to do with the Netherlands. I don't see a problem with that.

Nothing to do with the Netherlands? They forbade Turk ministers meetings and public speaking saying it would cause civil unrest, which was certainly a mere excuse. And Rutte almost certainly did it as a populist domestic election ploy. In any event, with Erdogan befriending Putin it is less than acceptable to get into a major diplomatic kerfuffle to the point of breaking relations for a domestic election. Turkey is the NATO partner with not only the largest military in Europe. It is also the guarantor of the South Eastern borders and entrance to the Mediterranean.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

That is a valent attempt at sophistry. ;)

But it does not work. Not only is it being openly discussed in the European Chanels and in media like Der Spiegel, that the government is instumentalizing the issue to get votes off the right, Nato is rather upset, Merkel is saying that it is better to be delicate and the French President has chosen to come down on the side of free speech. In other words the Dutch approach is far form suspect to the point of Deutschland Funk (public radio station) saying this morning that it is understandable with the election so close.

That is the opinion of the foreign media looking into our election from the outside. And Merkel is wrong, also, the Deutschland Funk is talking out of it's backside, the only reason this issue has blown up like this is due to the Turkish election, much more than due to our election and today proved that totally. The Dutch did not escalate this issue but the scumbag Erdogan did, and he will have to pay the price for that decision at one point.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

Nothing to do with the Netherlands? They forbade Turk ministers meetings and public speaking saying it would cause civil unrest, which was certainly a mere excuse. And Rutte almost certainly did it as a populist domestic election ploy. In any event, with Erdogan befriending Putin it is less than acceptable to get into a major diplomatic kerfuffle to the point of breaking relations for a domestic election. Turkey is the NATO partner with not only the largest military in Europe. It is also the guarantor of the South Eastern borders and entrance to the Mediterranean.

i.e. Foreign diplomats holding political rallies for their own countries.

For example, it would be like having a Mexican diplomat holding rallies for Mexican expats in the U.S. for political reasons relating back to Mexico. I don't think it's unreasonable to keep foreign diplomats from campaigning in your country for their own country.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

Turkey is the NATO partner with not only the largest military in Europe. It is also the guarantor of the South Eastern borders and entrance to the Mediterranean.

Oh...and this part? Even if I was more pro-NATO I'd have Turkey forcibly removed from the alliance. They are not a country with which to have such an alliance with.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

It very well could be if the laws can be used to destroy the country. IMO. Yours, not so much.

Have you read their Constitution??
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

That is the opinion of the foreign media looking into our election from the outside. And Merkel is wrong, also, the Deutschland Funk is talking out of it's backside, the only reason this issue has blown up like this is due to the Turkish election, much more than due to our election and today proved that totally. The Dutch did not escalate this issue but the scumbag Erdogan did, and he will have to pay the price for that decision at one point.

Everyone is wrong. Rutte would never revert to populism. ;)

You do realize that Rutte only had to let the ministers speak freely. Instead of doing this he assists Erdogan stage his wrath, causes a first rate diplomatic kerfuffle to the point of a near break of diplomatic relations and puts the relationship to the NATO member with the largest military in Europe and guardian of the Mediterranean entrance and guarantor of the Eu southeastern border at risk. And only to win a domestic election? That's cool.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

There are always idjits who throw around any term with as much abandon as the term itself is factually false. As such those vehemently opposed to anything remotely left of centre over here will throw the term "communist" around as much as their equally rabid counterparts will do that with "Nazi".

Ironically the Turkish president has just levelled the charge that in the coming Dutch election the people have the choice between two candidates that are equally fascist and racist. Now with Rutte (current office holder) being a liberal-right, he'd probably be a commie by US standards, at least in the minds of some there. Here he's seen very much as a conservative but, if one cares to look closely at US definitions, still left of the average US Democrat. Most conservatives here can be seen as that.

With Wilders the application of the fascist label is convenient for the lazy, in practice he's a one person party and simply surfing on the wave of a populist issue to make more and more of a personal living off it. His achievements prior to having gone "political" certainly remain unimpressive and his political career only picked up once he put his board on that particular wave he's still surfing.

I agree on your definitions. As to the other, I honestly don't know enough about the people involved to have an objective opinion about them.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

Nothing to do with the Netherlands? They forbade Turk ministers meetings and public speaking saying it would cause civil unrest, which was certainly a mere excuse. And Rutte almost certainly did it as a populist domestic election ploy. In any event, with Erdogan befriending Putin it is less than acceptable to get into a major diplomatic kerfuffle to the point of breaking relations for a domestic election. Turkey is the NATO partner with not only the largest military in Europe. It is also the guarantor of the South Eastern borders and entrance to the Mediterranean.

Nope, nothing to do with the Netherlands except that the Turkish government did not get the appropriate permit to hold a public rally, something that everyone here in the Netherlands have to comply with. That they think they are above such petty issues like the law, means that Turkey was acting like a bull in a china shop. The Turkish government might think they can push through laws and permits here in the Netherlands, but there was no venue to hold a rally and the attempts of the Dutch government to work with the Turkish government was made impossible through the actions of the Turks.

And this was just a blip on our election, we care much more about internal political issues than whiny Turkish autocrats like Erdogan.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

I agree on your definitions. As to the other, I honestly don't know enough about the people involved to have an objective opinion about them.

Let us see, Erdogan today said that:
"We know the Dutch and the people in Holland from the massacre of Srebrenica. We know them, how they massacred people in Srebrenica full well. We don't need anyone to give us a lesson on civilization."

The UETD claimed that the Dutch police attacked Dutch Turks with horses, police batons, water canons and dogs who were only there to watch and had no violent tendencies. :lamo

What idiots, the police only took defense actions when the Turkish demonstrators started throwing paving stones and bottles at the police. All more evidence of the Turkish lies that keep coming.

Meanwhile in the Dutch elections most of the things we are talking about is the same thing that we were talking about before the Turkish created riots and demonstrations.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Everyone is wrong. Rutte would never revert to populism. ;)

You do realize that Rutte only had to let the ministers speak freely. Instead of doing this he assists Erdogan stage his wrath, causes a first rate diplomatic kerfuffle to the point of a near break of diplomatic relations and puts the relationship to the NATO member with the largest military in Europe and guardian of the Mediterranean entrance and guarantor of the Eu southeastern border at risk. And only to win a domestic election? That's cool.

You do realize that even the blessed Turkish government members need valid permits to hold political rallies?

And Rutte assisted nothing, the government acted like it was supposed to do when the Turkish government started acting like little pathetic bullies that were denied their demands after they started threatening and throwing a temper tantrum. They would have been allowed to hold a rally in the consulate but that was not what they wanted, they wanted to hold a public political rally on the streets in front of the consulate and that not only needed a permit but also needed time for the police/local government to organize police protection and organize locations for counter demonstrations because Erdogan has a lot of opponents too that could have created problems at that rally.

The relationship between Turkey and the Netherlands was and is strained due to the actions of the Turkish government and their idiotic behavior.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Turkish vacations are taking a huge hit in the travel agencies in the Netherlands. People are even asking their travel agencies to change their trips to Turkey into trips to Greece.
 
Re: The Netherlands and Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusogl

Well, at the time there wasn't a comparable bunch of Putinists trying to rally in The Netherlands. Beyond that The Netherlands are clearly participating in the EU sanctions imposed upon Russia since even before the MH-17 shoot down.

Not headline material as much though.

Thats my point, the Dutch were already doing economic sanctions when the plane got shot down, and it seems they hardly raised the issue about it at all- no formal protest or even kicking out the Russian ambassador, not a peep. And yet now they are all over the news standing up to Turkey as of this instant.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Turkish vacations are taking a huge hit in the travel agencies in the Netherlands. People are even asking their travel agencies to change their trips to Turkey into trips to Greece.

To be fair, that has been happening since before the attempted coup and has only accelerated. This goes for all European tourism to Turkey.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

In the context of all this brouhaha it might be interesting to know that Turkish election laws actually forbid campaigning abroad on Turkish political matters (article 94/A). A law introduced and passed byt the AKP, the ery party now breaching it.

Also interesting what Turkish law says about any foreign politician campaigning in Turkey.

It does not expressly prohibit such activities but that hasn't stopped the current bunch of "Nazis, fascists and banana repubblicans" (to be in keeping with Erdogan's diction) from refusing the Bulgarian politician Erdinc Hayrula entry into the coutnry, when he wanted to campaign for dual citizenship among Turks from Bulgaria that had returned to Turkey and maintained their Bulgarian citizenship.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Dutch Turks had made an official request for a permit to hold a public march against "the violent police action at the Turkish demonstration in Rotterdam". The mayor of Rotterdam had approve this march but since then the bad publicity against the march organizers has had the result that they march will now not go through because they feel they cannot guarantee the safety of the demonstrators at the march.

The whiny behavior of some Dutch Turks, closely tied to the AK party of Erdogan/pro-Erdogan Turks) has caused a lot of bad blood with both Dutch and Turkish citizens.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

In a continuation of my earlier posts regarding Turkish idiots burning the wrong flag (French flag) while protesting the Netherlands incident with the government officials, here it is:

Turkish Idiots, the sequel

Huge number of Turks call the wrong Rotterdam

ROTTERDAM - The police of the small American town Rotterdam was surprised last week when suddenly a lot of weird telephone calls were made to them. Operators of the switchboard at the incident room where bombarded by phone calls from angry Turks who, among others, played their nationalistic songs through the phone at the switchboard operators.

With that, the 29.000 American town, some 3541 miles from the actual Dutch town of Rotterdam got involved (against their will) in the Dutch Turkish diplomatic fight. "They confused us with Rotterdam in the Netherlands", said a spokesperson from the Rotterdam police in the US, in an interview with the local The Daily Gazette.

Most likely the Turks wanted to vent their anger with the Rotterdam police to a phone number they found online. And that caused them to call the dispatch center of the Schenectady County police in New York. Someone placed a video of the wrong number online which caused even more Turks to take to their phones and call the wrong Rotterdam.

Luckily the phone bombardment did not interfere with the American Rotterdam's emergency services because the number they called was not a number used for reporting emergency situations said the spokesperson for the police there. But they are still going to try and prevent such an incident from occurring in the future.

The link to the original Dutch news story can be found below
Turken bellen massaal verkeerde Rotterdam|Binnenland| Telegraaf.nl
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."--Nigel Powers

Looks like this subject has them both covered.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Turkey now angry at Norway for giving asylum to 4 Turks soldiers/1 military attache who the Erdogan government suspects of being involved in the failed coup last year. The Turkish foreign ministry has demanded the presence of the Norwegian ambassador so they can chew him a new one.

The department of the foreign ministry says they will keep pursuing the arrest of the 4 suspects.

Since the failed coup the Turkish government has been arresting tens of thousands of Turkish population. Some Turkish citizens are looking for safety from the Erdogan government abroad. A week or so back it was made public that Greece had given some Turks with a diplomatic passport asylum and Germany has made public last week that 136 Turks with a diplomatic passport have asked for asylum in Germany.
 
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Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

In the EU parliament, from now on, the Daily Sabah (Turkish English newspaper) can no longer be distributed, it has been banned.

A member of the Christian center right faction of the EP, Jeroen Lenaers of the CDA in the Netherlands has asked the EP to take action against the distribution throughout the European parliament of the Daily Sabah. Lenaers was very angry at the attacks the Daily Sabah paper has been leveling at Dutch Turks who disagree with the opinions of Erdogan. One had to temporarily lay down his work as a member of the Rotterdam elected council due to threats and intimidation partly caused by the Daily Sabah who has printed his picture (together with a few other Erdogan critical council members) along side that of Geert Wilders with the text that these Turkish Dutch people where in collusion with the Fascists of the Netherlands and Wilders to stop Erdogan and him getting more power.

They also were targeted as Gulen supporters and thus semi-responsible for the failed coup last year.

The Christian democratic faction, together with other factions have thus banned the English Daily Sabah for being a propaganda rag. This of course seriously angered the Turks.

This whole kerfuffle will not stop anytime soon.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

The Dutch police has been actively looking for some Turkish hooligans who threw stones at the police and committed public aggression against the police.

A few of the worst offenders have had their pictures posted on the police website after the police first warned that they should come forward or else their pictures would be released. Of the people who did not respond, 6 at first, were posted with their mugs on the police website/television and after just a few days half of them surrendered themselves to the police after which their images were taken down.

In Belgium there have been issues and fighting at the Turkish embassy between Erdogan supporters and Erdogan opponents, some people suffered stab wounds (if I am not mistaken under the anti-Erdogan protesters.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

The Dutch police has been actively looking for some Turkish hooligans who threw stones at the police and committed public aggression against the police.

A few of the worst offenders have had their pictures posted on the police website after the police first warned that they should come forward or else their pictures would be released. Of the people who did not respond, 6 at first, were posted with their mugs on the police website/television and after just a few days half of them surrendered themselves to the police after which their images were taken down.

In Belgium there have been issues and fighting at the Turkish embassy between Erdogan supporters and Erdogan opponents, some people suffered stab wounds (if I am not mistaken under the anti-Erdogan protesters.
Have t here been any instances (uncovered) in The Netherlands of Turkish intelligence agencies having spied on anti-Erdogan Turks?

Like in Germany where it's now been revealed that they've been monitoring (and threatening) Gülen sympathizers (including a German MP being put on "the list")?
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Have t here been any instances (uncovered) in The Netherlands of Turkish intelligence agencies having spied on anti-Erdogan Turks?

Like in Germany where it's now been revealed that they've been monitoring (and threatening) Gülen sympathizers (including a German MP being put on "the list")?

Yes, we have also had issues with pro-Erdogan groups/AK party/citizens to target schools of Gülen sympathizers, taking their children out of school there and holding a hate campaign against Gülen sympathizers. Even businesses lead by Gülen sympathizers but who's business really have no link to Gülen or his ideas are being targeted/hated upon/boycotted by Erdogan supporters.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Yes, we have also had issues with pro-Erdogan groups/AK party/citizens to target schools of Gülen sympathizers, taking their children out of school there and holding a hate campaign against Gülen sympathizers. Even businesses lead by Gülen sympathizers but who's business really have no link to Gülen or his ideas are being targeted/hated upon/boycotted by Erdogan supporters.
Thanks.

Hadn't heard anything wrt this from the Netherlands but suspected as much. The indignation in Germany (from what I hear) lies in that actual Turkish official bodies (here the MIT = Turkish Secret Service) became active.

That's espionage.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Thanks.

Hadn't heard anything wrt this from the Netherlands but suspected as much. The indignation in Germany (from what I hear) lies in that actual Turkish official bodies (here the MIT = Turkish Secret Service) became active.

That's espionage.

Last year there were questions in our parliament about MIT spy activity on Turkish Dutch people in 2016.
 
Re: The Netherlands & Turkey on a war path about visit of foreign minister Çavusog [W

Well, the Dutch and Turkish conflict is still going strong. The Netherlands has withdrawn it's ambassador from Turkey.

Turkey-Netherlands row: Dutch ambassador withdrawn - BBC News

The Netherlands has formally withdrawn its ambassador to Turkey and said no new Turkish ambassador will be accepted in The Hague.

The decision marks the deepening of a row that began when the Dutch barred Turkish ministers from campaigning among the Turkish diaspora in 2017.

The Dutch diplomat has not been allowed to enter Turkey since March.

The Netherlands foreign ministry also said that it had "paused" talks on resolving matters with Turkey.

"We have not agreed on how to normalise ties," Foreign Minister Halbe Zijlstra said in a statement.

I do not think this issue will be solved any time soon.
 
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