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Clobbering the little guy

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Since I don't vote, my vote isn't worth anything at all.
And to be quite fair so what? What difference would it make but for them to say "I'm democratically representing you" when he isn't. F Off.
If you care about such things you vote for them. Pass laws amongst yourselves all you like, just don't bother me none.

If Labour MP stabs a Tory MP, do you expect me to cry or clap?
They are welcome to kill each other. Please do. Do not toe the line. Allow them weapons in chamber.
Big fight scene from Kingsman... with only Jeremy Corbyn left standing... I'd subscribe to parliament channel for that.
 
Baff said:
Since I don't vote, my vote isn't worth anything at all.
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So what was all the commentary about your MP not representing you? If you don't vote, you have even less argument or reason to justify people bringing down politicians with differing views in the street and murdering them.
 
They are welcome to.
Murder away. None of my business. That's what happens to the power mad.
I won't be leaping to the defence of fascists and traitors. Good riddance to bad rubbish is what I say.

No MP represents me. Why would I pay lip service to that idea? Why would I give my assent to the legitimacy of that falsity?
If I blindly voted for someone who didn't represent me, would that fix it? No.

Alternative social systems must be used. Ones I can trust.

Right now public confidence in our political system is at a massive low. Referendums may be the solution. May restore it. I hope so. But this may yet fail. It failed in Ukraine recently, when the losers simply refused to accept the outcome. The stakes are high. This is how it happens.
To blindly carry on as if the people will just lie down here and accept fascism is dangerously delusional. They won't. Not here.


I voted in the EU referendum, my first and hopefully last vote. I'm interested to see if democracy will actually work. To see if we actually have it in this country. I'm thinking not. But if it turns out we do, what the hell, let's give it a go. I'll try anything once.
 
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I think the last thing we need is more violence and thuggery in the British political system. I don't see why a UKIP supporter, who has seen how what left-wing mobs can do to the likes of Farage (with the press not caring), would think it a good idea to encourage that sort of thing.

I was no fan of the BNP, but I always thought the ironically named anti-fa, who thought it legitimate to resort to violence and intimidation against them, were at least as bad.
 
Wessexman said:
~ I don't see why a UKIP supporter, who has seen how what left-wing mobs can do to the likes of Farage (with the press not caring)
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Do you have a link? I only remember eggs being thrown at him.

Wessexman said:
~ I don't see why a UKIP supporter, would think it a good idea to encourage that sort of thing.
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Agreed.

Wessexman said:
~I was no fan of the BNP, but I always thought the ironically named anti-fa, who thought it legitimate to resort to violence and intimidation against them, were at least as bad.
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Well, you'd have to move on as the BNP pretty much have gone into obscurity, probably lost a lot of supporters to UKIP. That's not saying UKIP is a racist organisation - however that small hard rump of very hard right support does UKIP no favours. Then again, neither does Farage copying up to the idiot Trump.

Hard to find ANY genuine traces of support for Trump these days, even from UKIP supporters.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Do you have a link? I only remember eggs being thrown at him.
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I mean that sort of thing, and his hounding at the pub with his family and attempts to shut down campaigning (I believe this happened at least once in Scotland). Usually the police step in, but it is bad enough. Screaming mobs of activists trying to intimidate people are not a positive contribution to our political dialogue.

Well, you'd have to move on as the BNP pretty much have gone into obscurity, probably lost a lot of supporters to UKIP. That's not saying UKIP is a racist organisation - however that small hard rump of very hard right support does UKIP no favours. Then again, neither does Farage copying up to the idiot Trump.

Hard to find ANY genuine traces of support for Trump these days, even from UKIP supporters.
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Trump's a buffoon and demagogue, although I'm glad he beat Hillary.
 
I like Trump.
Saw him on the Apprentice.

Nice chap.

Set to be a fun presidency. I wonder if he will survive it? Hope so.
He's the best US president since Obama.

I rate him personally. I think he's the best in my life time. Early days however, room for change.
 
Baff said:
I like Trump.
Saw him on the Apprentice.

Nice chap.

Set to be a fun presidency. I wonder if he will survive it? Hope so.
He's the best US president since Obama.

I rate him personally. I think he's the best in my life time. Early days however, room for change.
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Trump's a walking disaster. Only his most unquestioning supporters and paid Russian supporters on the internet support him still.

Wessexman said:
I mean that sort of thing, and his hounding at the pub with his family and attempts to shut down campaigning (I believe this happened at least once in Scotland). Usually the police step in, but it is bad enough. Screaming mobs of activists trying to intimidate people are not a positive contribution to our political dialogue.
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So why only worry about him? Eggs and worse have been thrown at all sorts of politicians in the past - John Prescott ended up in a punch-up once. You're worried about Farage only?

Curious.......

Wessexman said:
Trump's a buffoon and demagogue, although I'm glad he beat Hillary.
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The democratic party put him in place by putting Clinton forward.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
So why only worry about him? Eggs and worse have been thrown at all sorts of politicians in the past - John Prescott ended up in a punch-up once. You're worried about Farage only?

Curious.......
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It isn't just eggs. It is the hounding people and the trying to stop basic freedoms of campaigning, assembly, association. I don't think this is a normal feature of British politics. I don't think it is legitimate to go up to Farage in his local, whilst he is with his children, and scream obscenities as part of a mob. Nor do I think it legitimate to try and literally prevent Farage and UKIP from campaigning or assembling in an area or location. Of course, there have always been extremists on all sides, but I do think that there is currently a pernicious tendency amongst some forms of leftwing activism towards this kind of violence and thuggery, and one that is given something blind eye by the press.
 
Wessexman said:
It isn't just eggs. It is the hounding people and the trying to stop basic freedoms of campaigning, assembly, association. I don't think this is a normal feature of British politics. I don't think it is legitimate to go up to Farage in his local, whilst he is with his children, and scream obscenities as part of a mob. Nor do I think it legitimate to try and literally prevent Farage and UKIP from campaigning or assembling in an area or location. Of course, there have always been extremists on all sides, but I do think that there is currently a pernicious tendency amongst some forms of leftwing activism towards this kind of violence and thuggery, and one that is given something blind eye by the press.
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I find it extremely telling that you worry about eggs and a few obscenities shouted at Farage when Jo Cox faced an even worse fate at the hands of an angry member of the public.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Trump's a walking disaster. Only his most unquestioning supporters and paid Russian supporters on the internet support him still.



So why only worry about him? Eggs and worse have been thrown at all sorts of politicians in the past - John Prescott ended up in a punch-up once. You're worried about Farage only?

Curious.......



The democratic party put him in place by putting Clinton forward.
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Not a fan of John Prescot. If I thumped a man in the face on camera, I would get prosecuted. Not a good look.
I might even get off, but it's not a good look. That's your role model? It's not mine.

Clinton and Trump are IRA supporters financially, so F both of them. They'll be meeting me in hell.

Trump got elected on a shoestring budget. Against all the odds. The man is a genius. Love him or hate him he's smart.
Don't underestimate him.
He bought for millions what the others failed to buy for billions. The American Presidency.
And if he can recreate that phenomenon in just one US department of state, that saving of billions of dollars each year forever into the future....
He will do more for that country than any American President in my life time.

He's a really smart guy and he's a maverick. He's not playing by anybody else's rules. He simply isn't bound by them.
Putin does the same.
They get **** done.

Yes, the guys who wanted that power for themselves or their own political ideologies will hate him as much as the last losers hated Obama. Yawnfest.

Brexit Boys drink for free in America. Nice one.
Cheers.
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
I find it extremely telling that you worry about eggs and a few obscenities shouted at Farage when Jo Cox faced an even worse fate at the hands of an angry member of the public.
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The murder of Jo Cox was committed by a nutter. You always have them. I don't see any reason to see a trend in the murder.

It isn't simply obscenities. That is fallaciously deflationary language. It is the attempt to use intimidation and violence as an ordinary part of British political discourse. I see no comparison to Jo Cox here. I might say there is more of a similarity to aspects of Islamic extremism, but I discount them too because I think they are rare enough and generally outside the British mainstream.
 
Wessexman said:
The murder of Jo Cox was committed by a nutter. You always have them. I don't see any reason to see a trend in the murder.

It isn't simply obscenities. That is fallaciously deflationary language. It is the attempt to use intimidation and violence as an ordinary part of British political discourse. I see no comparison to Jo Cox here. I might say there is more of a similarity to aspects of Islamic extremism, but I discount them too because I think they are rare enough and generally outside the British mainstream.
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Dodge. You were simply more concerned that your favourite politician had eggs thrown at him than a rival politician stabbed in the street by an extremist who didn't like her politics. Mair is also part of a group of people like "National Action" who support Farage and go even further beyond his views.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Dodge. You were simply more concerned that your favourite politician had eggs thrown at him than a rival politician stabbed in the street by an extremist who didn't like her politics. Mair is also part of a group of people like "National Action" who support Farage and go even further beyond his views.
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There are several key things wrong with this. First it doesn't really address the point: the killer was a nutter. He was even disavowed him by the group you mention. You give no argument to show why this act was anything but a one off. The likes of Mair might prefer Farage to other mainstream politicians, but only in the sense that a Stalinist would prefer the Atlee government to Churchill's. Any guilt by association is pretty spurious (as is usually the case). The people I am talking about are characteristic of a sizeable and growing segment of the left. It is the same sort of people who hound conservative speakers on campuses. I think this kind of leftist intolerance is more of a problem for our political system than one off nutters, even if they're on the left, especially as they are ignored or even sympayhised with my much of the press and establishment (whereas any violence and intimidation on the right is magnified in significance).

Secondly, I suppose I prefer Farage to the other main party leaders, but otherwise I think he has something of the used car salesman about him. Peter Hitchens is more representative of my views than Farage or UKIP.

Thirdly, it is generally not a good idea to try to make windows into men's souls and ferret out their secret views and motives, particularly when you go so far away from what is actually said. So how about you stop playing DIY psychoanalysis?
 
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Wessexman said:
There are several key things wrong with this. First it doesn't really address the point: the killer was a nutter. He was even disavowed him by the group you mention. You give no argument to show why this act was anything but a one off. The likes of Mair might prefer Farage to other mainstream politicians, but only in the sense that a Stalinist would prefer the Atlee government to Churchill's. Any guilt by association is pretty spurious (as is usually the case). The people I am talking about are characteristic of a sizeable and growing segment of the left. It is the same sort of people who hound conservative speakers on campuses. I think this kind of leftist intolerance is more of a problem for our political system than one off nutters, even if they're on the left, especially as they are ignored or even sympayhised with my much of the press and establishment (whereas any violence and intimidation on the right is magnified in significance).

Secondly, I suppose I prefer Farage to the other main party leaders, but otherwise I think he has something of the used car salesman about him. Peter Hitchens is more representative of my views than Farage or UKIP.

Thirdly, it is generally not a good idea to try to make windows into men's souls and ferret out their secret views and motives, particularly when you go so far away from what is actually said. So how about you stop playing DIY psychoanalysis?
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Sorry, I don't buy your explanation in the slightest. One nutter and Jo Cox and a group of nutters and Nigel Farage, I see no political difference, what I do see is one stabbed and murdered his political opponent and the others merely chanted their hatred.

You're better off owning what you said rather than backtracking now.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Sorry, I don't buy your explanation in the slightest. One nutter and Jo Cox and a group of nutters and Nigel Farage, I see no political difference, what I do see is one stabbed and murdered his political opponent and the others merely chanted their hatred.

You're better off owning what you said rather than backtracking now.
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I'm struggling to see the reasoning here. What I said in no way stated or implied the conclusions you drew. Would you mind showing, in close reasoning exactly how my comments must, or even most likely, carry all these quite wild connotations you have drawn? Presumably, at some we will find that my comments carry some admission that it was me behind the grassy knoll.

My underlying point - if you would wish to take from me, rather than you own feverish imagination - is that I see a trend here that is worry. It is connected to the increasing use of intimidation and violence by the left across the Anglo world, which is given cover by the mainstream media. I don't see them the hounding of Farage as an isolated phenomena. You don't see this trend, obviously. So we have different opinions. I have no idea, though how you extract all sorts of sinister motives for me from this different assessment of the facts. That seems not only a fallacious leap (it is simply a non sequitur as it stands), but it seems a profoundly unhelpful way to conduct political discussion.
 
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Wessexman said:
I'm struggling to see the reasoning here. What I said in no way stated or implied the conclusions you drew. Would you mind showing, in close reasoning exactly how my comments must, or even most likely, carry all these quite wild connotations you have drawn? Presumably, at some we will find that my comments carry some admission that it was me behind the grassy knoll.

My underlying point - if you would wish to take from me, rather than you own feverish imagination - is that I see a trend here that is worry. It is connected to the increasing use of intimidation and violence by the left across the Anglo world, which is given cover by the mainstream media. I don't see them the hounding of Farage as an isolated phenomena. You don't see this trend, obviously. So we have different opinions. I have no idea, though how you extract all sorts of sinister motives for me from this different assessment of the facts. That seems not only a fallacious leap (it is simply a non sequitur as it stands), but it seems a profoundly unhelpful way to conduct political discussion.
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Sorry, not convinced. You were either ignorant of or uncaring of but either way, a minuscule event took greater precedence for you than a brutal murder of a politician.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Sorry, not convinced. You were either ignorant of or uncaring of but either way, a minuscule event took greater precedence for you than a brutal murder of a politician.
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Precedence of what? Explain in detail what you mean. You're not being exact, which gives what little semblance of sense there is your fallacious and rather silly accusations. I have refrained from trying to psychoanalysing you, but it is clearly you with the bee in their bonnet.
 
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Wessexman said:
Precedence of what? Explain in detail what you mean. You're not being exact, which gives what little semblance of sense there is your fallacious and rather silly accusations. I have refrained from trying to psychoanalysing you, but it is clearly you with the bee in their bonnet.
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No bee.

The detail was explained in Post 40 - "One nutter and Jo Cox and a group of nutters and Nigel Farage."

I can't explain it any simpler than this. Why not just own it that Farage being taunted by a group of nutters upsets you more thatn Jo Cox being brutally murdered on the street by one nutter?

We'd end this pointless exchange quickly then.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
No bee.

The detail was explained in Post 40 - "One nutter and Jo Cox and a group of nutters and Nigel Farage."

I can't explain it any simpler than this. Why not just own it that Farage being taunted by a group of nutters upsets you more thatn Jo Cox being brutally murdered on the street by one nutter?

We'd end this pointless exchange quickly then.
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And I have explained the difference repeatedly. I don't believe the attack on Cox, as horrific as it was, represents any pattern. It was an attack by a nutter, and doesn't therefore have a lot of wider ramifications for the British polity. Those attacking Garage, however, do seem part of a general trend on the hard-left that is intolerant of its opponents and is willing to use violence and intimidation to silence them. This trend is given some succour by the more mainstream left, and is somewhat of a real danger to our polity.

Now you might think my analysis is was wrong. But, one, you haven't properly responded to it, and, two, accusing me of just not caring about Cox being killed is disingenuous and pathetic. I don't think Muslim terrorism represents, in the end, a true danger to our polity, except so far as we overreact to it. Does that mean I must not care about its victim?
 
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Trying to reanimate a thread from 7 months ago with nothing up-to-date is known as 'necro-ing' and we discourage it. Thread closed. Move on please.
 
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