United Ireland

The law firm is called Birnbirgs. I spoke with Dexter about it down the pub one night, he used to date my sister.
There are two of them. The other is called Gareth, she was played by Emma Thompson in the movie.
The film may be about some random terrorists to you, but to me it is about my friends who featured in it.

Again your reasons for concluding that I am making this up, says more about you than it does me.


Any two terrorists who bomb someone can be considered to be acting alone. Why tar terrorists bombers with the same brush as other terrorist bombers, bombing in the name of the same cause? Why indeed.

The bombing happened. It is not an isolated incident. IRA terrorism has continued in NI, despite the peace process, just not in London.
I would describe it as "low level" stuff. No spectaculars. I use the word "war" loosely. My apologies for that.
The IRA liked to call it a war, but I think that is overplaying it somewhat.

I'm from the UK, I worked in London throughout the IRA bombing campaign. So the option of me "not taking sides" is not possible. I have been involved in this quite beyond any agreement by me to be so. I did not seek this out. It came to me.
In order for you to be a friend and ally of my country, there is no option for you to "not take sides" in this either.
Rationalising acts of violence and murder aimed at me and those I love and also those I seek to protect is not a neutral act. Much as you may wish to justify it so.
It is an encouragement for those people acting in this way to continue acting in this way. A justification for actions to which there are no valid justifications that I am able to accept.

You are providing bad role model and actively encouraging further terrorist activity. Promoting it. Your failure to recognise that perhaps stems from your lack of empathy with the innocent victims in this campaign or even the perpetrators of it. You will be held responsible for you actions by me. Ignorance of the consequences is no longer an excuse I will offer you mitigation for, because you have been made aware of it.

Choose your side.

Baff said:

The law firm is called Birnbirgs. I spoke with Dexter about it down the pub one night, he used to date my sister.
There are two of them. The other I think is called Gareth Pierce, she was played by Emma Thompson in the movie.
The film may be about some random terrorists to you, but to me it is about my friends who were involved in it.

Again your reasons for concluding that I am making this up, says more about you than it does me.


Any two terrorists who bomb someone can be considered to be acting alone. Why tar terrorists bombers with the same brush as other terrorist bombers, bombing in the name of the same cause?
The bombing happened. It is not an isolated incident. IRA terrorism has continued in NI, despite the peace process, just not in London.
I would describe it as "low level" stuff. No spectaculars. I use the word "war" loosely. My apologies for that.
The IRA liked to call it a war, but I think that is overplaying it somewhat.

I'm from the UK, I worked in London throughout the IRA bombing campaign. So the option of me "not taking sides" is not possible. I have been involved in this quite beyond any agreement by me to be so. I did not seek this out. It came to me.
In order for you to be a friend and ally of my country, there is no option for you to "not take sides" in this either.
Rationalising acts of violence and murder aimed at me and those I love and also those I seek to protect is not a neutral act. Much as you may wish to justify it so.
It is an encouragement for those people acting in this way to continue acting in this way. A justification for actions to which there are no valid justifications that I am able to accept.

You are providing bad role model and actively encouraging further terrorist activity. Promoting it. Your failure to recognise that perhaps stems from your lack of empathy with the innocent victims in this campaign or even the perpetrators of it. You will be held responsible for you actions by me. Ignorance of the consequences is no longer an excuse I will offer you mitigation for, because you have been made aware of it.

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are you trying to say Britain and the British empire were saints in all this ffs .. we partitioned their island ffs exported massive volumes of food from Ireland when the vast majority of the people were starving killing over 3 million displacing several million to America and Scotland ... that same famine took the lives of over 100,000 highlanders my countrymen causing the 2nd and last highland clearance ... Britain was ruthless when it put down descent of it's rule and Ireland was no different ... the IRA and INLA were the by products of British rule of Northern and Southern Ireland

I have never killed a single person. Not maimed nor tortured nor starved. None of my Japanese school children on the Strand that day had either.
Nor any of the patrons in any of my nightclubs nor any of the Londoners in those traffic jams. None of us had anything to do with any of this at all ever.... until some misbegotten malevolent killer tried to murder us all.

Invent the TARDIS, go back in time and sort out your historical grievance with those who caused it. How you managed to live for so many centuries and hold this grudge against people you have never met for their actions against people who are not you, I cannot begin to fathom.

Plucking convenient pages from a history book to justify your malign hatred of the British people does not cut any mustard with me. If you seek war with us, you will get it.
And deserve it.

Baff said:

The law firm is called Birnbirgs. I spoke with Dexter about it down the pub one night, he used to date my sister.
There are two of them. The other is called Gareth, she was played by Emma Thompson in the movie.

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There was no character Dexter from Birnbirgs in the film and your statement: "They made a movie about him. In the Name of the Father" is clearly untrue.

The film may be about some random terrorists to you, but to me it is about my friends who featured in it.

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The film is not about terrorists at all. It is about innocent people falsely accused of being terrorists by corrupt police officers who allow the terrorists to get away scot-free from their atrocities. That doesn't appear to bother you.

I would describe it as "low level" stuff. No spectaculars. I use the word "war" loosely. My apologies for that.
The IRA liked to call it a war, but I think that is overplaying it somewhat.

Click to expand...

The IRA, as was, describes those activities as crimes.

I'm from the UK, I worked in London throughout the IRA bombing campaign. So the option of me "not taking sides" is not possible. I have been involved in this quite beyond any agreement by me to be so. I did not seek this out. It came to me.
In order for you to be a friend and ally of my country, there is no option for you to "not take sides" in this either.
Rationalising acts of violence and murder aimed at me and those I love and also those I seek to protect is not a neutral act. Much as you may wish to justify it so.
It is an encouragement for those people acting in this way to continue acting in this way. A justification for actions to which there are no valid justifications that I am able to accept.

Click to expand...

I'm from the UK, lived through the period of the Troubles, had a good friend badly injured in an IRA bombing. I'm not patriotic. I want to live in a world without bombs and shootings; and miscarriages of justice; and sectarian discrimination; and I don't want to live in a police state; and I don't want blasphemy laws and gagging orders and mass surveillance. The simple quirk of fate that I was born in Nottingham instead of Newry does not mean that I am predisposed to take the side of a government who condones those things.

What happened in Northern Ireland, and in Great Britain during those years was not a conflict between good and evil since there were good and evil acts carried out on all sides, and there were good and evil people acting on all sides. I don't have to take a side because to do so, as you are doing, condemns only a portion of the wicked acts and accuses only a percentage of the wrong-doers.

There are many people, mostly but not exclusively, on the Unionist and British side of the conflict who have not been brought to account for their wrongdoing during the Troubles. Justice might demand that they be brought to book, but realpolitik suggests that it may be best to leave the past where it is. Your posts suggest to me that you want to keep the conflict going, keep the war alive. To paraphrase your good self, that says more about you than it does about me.

You are providing bad role model and actively encouraging further terrorist activity. Promoting it.

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You need to withdraw that comment. Accusing another poster of illegal activity is taken rather seriously around here. At no point have I ever 'actively encouraged terrorist activity'.

Gareth is in it, Dexter works with Gareth. I spoke to Dexter not Gareth. If he's not in the film he's not in the film. My bad. He still represented them and he still told me they did it.
The film is about terrorists. Terrorists who got off. I doubt the film portrays it that way. I doubt that Birnbergs do either. But there it is. They did it and they were got off.
I could take your word for it, or I could take the inside information from the barrister representing them in that case. Guess which I will do.

I don't much give a monkies what the IRA describes as crimes. They bomb the innocent. They are not people I defer judgement over right and wrong to.
Why do you?

I'm not religious either. Good and evil isn't my concern. People setting bombs off near me is. That is wrong. It is behaviour that requires the use of consequences to arrest it. The Unionists never tried to bomb me. I have no beef with them at all. In fact I rather like them. We share common enemies and a common flag.
As they say in Ireland... never trust a catholic. ha ha ha.
I do like those boys. Go bang your drum!

No mitigation mate. Sorry.
Justifying murder is encouraging it. You have done so.
Do I think you have done so illegally? No.
If you do, report yourself.

Ban yourself or whatever.

But promoting terrorism it still is. You have been made aware of this. You understand the concept of providing role model. You understand the concept of social responsibility. If you justify murderous acts, you encourage those people who seek to commit them that it is socially acceptable and even perfectly reasonable to do so.
It is not.

Do I want keep the war in Ireland on-going? Whatever. This says more about your prejudices than it than it does mine.

german hick said:

1.) I know you hate Germans - you post it at least once a day
2.) completely lost topic - it´s Ireland here
3.) yes I walk in that shoes, I hope I am able to see the cruel things that happened here - I´m in no way a defender of that evil stuff that happened here or have any problems with jews, russians, poles or any other neighbours who suffered under Germany personally or as Nation in that times remembering themselves and demanding memory. They have the right to.

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Oh, I don't hate Germans at all. It is just that I know them so well and dislike the moralizing and preaching that that culture so loves. And yes, it was Irland and you were pointing fingers for things from the past and condemning others. And claiming a "fair view" of history, while your own culture thought that compensation of slaves was only justified after 50 years and only for the living. Most were dead. The just amount of ca Euros 5.000 per slave was not transferable to the heirs, thought he German heirs of the factory owners inherited their fortunes. Oh, yes. The German people certainly played that game well. Or look at Namibia.

Now, had you not used the refrain "fair view of history" and proposed wearing the shoes of the downtrodden to understand, I would not have said a word. But that was so disgusting that I decided that you might do the same to understand the Irish situation and your's with Turkey and Namibia, for that matter.

Now, I do not see these things under a moralistic banner and think that the moral view distorts things somewhat. But as it goes, I am quite happy that you profess "I´m in no way a defender of that evil stuff that happened here or have any problems with jews, russians, poles or any other neighbours who suffered under Germany personally". It demonstrates just how many of these guys boots you have worn. "Evil stuff", indeed.

Baff said:

Gareth is in it, Dexter works with Gareth. I spoke to Dexter not Gareth. If he's not in the film he's not in the film. My bad. He still represented them and he still told me they did it.
The film is about terrorists. Terrorists who got off. I doubt the film portrays it that way. I doubt that Birnbergs do either. But there it is. They did it and they were got off.
I could take your word for it, or I could take the inside information from the barrister representing them in that case. Guess which I will do.

I don't much give a monkies what the IRA describes as crimes. They bomb the innocent. They are not people I defer judgement over right and wrong to.
Why do you?

I'm not religious either. Good and evil isn't my concern. People setting bombs off near me is. That is wrong. It is behaviour that requires the use of consequences to arrest it. The Unionists never tried to bomb me. I have no beef with them at all. In fact I rather like them. We share common enemies and a common flag.
As they say in Ireland... never trust a catholic. ha ha ha.
I do like those boys. Go bang your drum!

No mitigation mate. Sorry.
Justifying murder is encouraging it. You have done so.
Do I think you have done so illegally? No.
If you do, report yourself.

Ban yourself or whatever.

But promoting terrorism it still is. You have been made aware of this. You understand the concept of providing role model. You understand the concept of social responsibility. If you justify murderous acts, you encourage those people who seek to commit them that it is socially acceptable and even perfectly reasonable to do so.
It is not.

Do I want keep the war in Ireland on-going? Whatever. This says more about your prejudices than it than it does mine.

Click to expand...

Sounds more and more like there was a very valid reason for the Troubles. I would have hoped the average English person of the period thought more like Wessexman or Andablue; if they thought like you, no wonder there was so much slaughter there over the decades.

The Guildford Four were not involved in the aforementioned attacks. Neither were the Maguire Seven, for that matter. You can claim they were "terrorists" until you are blue in the face, but it simply wasn't true.

And you support loyalist paramilitaries who---guess what?--- did the exact same thing. Seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

You "rather liking" people like the Shankill Butchers means all your moral outrage over the IRA murdered people just went out the window. You don't care about bombs killing innocent people. You simply don't like Catholics.

You justified murder yourself just now.

And you have made it abundantly clear that you don't really know or care about innocent people, whether in Ireland or England.

Baff said:

Gareth is in it, Dexter works with Gareth. I spoke to Dexter not Gareth. If he's not in the film he's not in the film. My bad. He still represented them and he still told me they did it.
The film is about terrorists. Terrorists who got off. I doubt the film portrays it that way. I doubt that Birnbergs do either. But there it is. They did it and they were got off.
I could take your word for it, or I could take the inside information from the barrister representing them in that case. Guess which I will do.

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You don't have to take my word for anything. The British state, the judiciary says they didn't do it. The IRA says they didn't and the British police say they didn't. That you can't accept the ultimate verdict has got nothing to do with me or my beliefs.

No mitigation mate. Sorry.
Justifying murder is encouraging it. You have done so.
Do I think you have done so illegally? No.
If you do, report yourself.

Ban yourself or whatever.

But promoting terrorism it still is.

Click to expand...

Okay. So be it.

Do I want keep the war in Ireland on-going? Whatever. This says more about your prejudices than it than it does mine.

Click to expand...

I don't believe it does.

Tigerace117 said:

Sounds more and more like there was a very valid reason for the Troubles. I would have hoped the average English person of the period thought more like Wessexman or Andablue; if they thought like you, no wonder there was so much slaughter there over the decades.

The Guildford Four were not involved in the aforementioned attacks. Neither were the Maguire Seven, for that matter. You can claim they were "terrorists" until you are blue in the face, but it simply wasn't true.

And you support loyalist paramilitaries who---guess what?--- did the exact same thing. Seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

You "rather liking" people like the Shankill Butchers means all your moral outrage over the IRA murdered people just went out the window. You don't care about bombs killing innocent people. You simply don't like Catholics.

You justified murder yourself just now.

And you have made it abundantly clear that you don't really know or care about innocent people, whether in Ireland or England.

Click to expand...

I don't care what your religion is.

IRA Catholics, I don't like.
Being a Catholic isn't the problem. Murdering people I like is.

If you are looking for a justification for the killing of innocents and you view my posts as that justification, carry on.
If that's how you feel them let's all go to war.

Let's not pretend to be civilised or peace loving at all. If that is all it takes for you to agree with mass murder... then lets agree to be enemies and deal with it that way.

I don't offer you peace at any price.
If you are looking for unjustified hatred and racism look no further than those people bombing in the name of nationality and religion.
Not some one getting annoyed about people those that do in an internet discussion. Look at the people mass murdering for that reason.
If you cannot or more likely will not recognise that difference.

If you wish to attribute my peacefully posting here as cause for all the horrors in the world, please accept my truest and deepest contempt.

Loyalist paramilitaries, never been a problem in my life. I recognise they may have been for others. Nasty business all round. But not for me.
Ultimately their enemies are my enemies. So I will side with them. Are they any worse in behaviour than the IRA you so have so happily agreed with.

I'm not morally outraged that the IRA are murderers. The world is full of murderers. People get murdered every day, I don't usually even hear about it. Let alone care about it.

I am their enemy.
"Moral" has nothing to do with it. My moral is survive. Keep those I love, alive.
I am not here to save the world, or judge the world as an omniscient God. Choose who is moral or not. Choose who should own what land and who not.

I'm just quietly doing my own thing. So if you bring your war to me, I shall fight you.
Break my peace and I shall break yours.

So cry racist at me too if you like. Makes no difference to me. I'm not the one killing people for their religion or their nationality. I'm the one who lives peaceably with folk from all nations, colours and creeds. Not like the IRA bombers you so clearly admire.

Side with my enemy and I shall side with yours. No quarter and no mercy. I do not travel to foreign countries and bomb people. I do not bomb people in my own country.
If for you that makes me less moral than those who do then fine. Whatever. Your morality isn't impressing me very much at this time.
Your political ideology that accepts the valid reason for my murder... not interested in it. Not one for me.

Enemy.


Don't know anything about the Guilford 4. It's another Birnberg case I think. But not one I raised with them. After discussing the Birmingham Six and how they got them off, I wasn't in the mood to discuss it with them any more. I asked him how he could live with himself. He explained. It was boring. I have forgot what he said. It went something like this... bla bla bla.


Make no mistake. I can justify murder. It's not just the IRA who knows how to kill.
I can make them look like schoolgirls. Murder them all over again when I get to hell. If you expect me to treat these people as if they are reasonable decent human beings, I won't.
They are not. They are enemies. Those who have set themselves on a course towards my destruction. And for why? Because there was a war a thousand years ago? F off and die. Expect no mercy. Declare war in me and I will declare it back on you. Every time. Their behaviour is rabid. A life threatening menace to us all.
If you are unable to respect that I am a reasonable and peaceable human being who has not murdered or maimed or starved, you or indeed anyone you have ever met or ever heard of... if you won't even offer me even that most basic common courtesy of peaceful human respect, then I want you dead. Respect that instead.

If you will not live in peace with me then die. Shuffle off.

once more: nobody here was in favor of terror or killings, for me it´s just about understanding and seeing both sides of the medal

your world view is a quite comfortable one, made for someone who is on the sunny side of the conflikt, who has his own peace, his own mighty country wich told and tells people from the other side how they have to manage their Island and ruled and in part still rules it. Make a proposal how they should have handled it. Voting? Difficult if the borders are made that way you never ever have a chance to get equality. (in the times of that terror, I think now it´s better because there where people who understood that they could not handle this conflikt with an egoistic worldview like yours.)

Baff said:

I don't care what your religion is.

IRA Catholics, I don't like.
Being a Catholic isn't the problem. Murdering people I like is.

If you are looking for a justification for the killing of innocents and you view my posts as that justification, carry on.
If that's how you feel them let's all go to war.

Let's not pretend to be civilised or peace loving at all. If that is all it takes for you to agree with mass murder... then lets agree to be enemies and deal with it that way.



I'm not morally outraged that the IRA are murderers. The world is full of murderers. People get murdered every day, I don't usually even hear about it. Let alone care about it.



.


Side with my enemy and I shall side with yours. No quarter and no mercy. I do not travel to foreign countries and bomb people. I do not bomb people in my own country.
If for you that makes me less moral than those who do then fine. Whatever. Your morality isn't impressing me very much at this time.
Your political ideology that accepts the valid reason for my murder... not interested in it. Not one for me.

Enemy. they got them off, I wasn't in the mood to discuss it with them any more. I asked him how he could live with himself. He explained. It was boring. I have forgot what he said. It went something like this... bla bla bla.


Make no mistake. I can justify murder. It's not just the IRA who knows how to kill.
I can make them look like schoolgirls. Murder them all over again when I get to hell. If you expect me to treat these people as if they are reasonable decent human beings, I won't.
They are not. They are enemies. Those who have set themselves on a course towards my destruction. And for why? Because there was a war a thousand years ago? F off and die. Expect no mercy. Declare war in me and I will declare it back on you. Every time. Their behaviour is rabid. A life threatening menace to us all.
If you are unable to respect that I am a reasonable and peaceable human being who has not murdered or maimed or starved, you or indeed anyone you have ever met or ever heard of... if you won't even offer me even that most basic common courtesy of peaceful human respect, then I want you dead. Respect that instead.

If you will not live in peace with me then die. Shuffle off.

Click to expand...

Oh, so it doesn't matter if one murders somebody as long as it's somebody you don't like. Noted :roll:

It's pretty clear that you do care about religion. You literally just said in your previous post "never trust a Catholic".

A war you would lose, and indeed since you have no problems with the murder of innocents, one which you wouldn't have a hope of getting support for.

You declaring a bunch of innocent people to be terrorists is pretty much the opposite of being civilized, bud.

You do realize nobody's been bombing for quite some time now....right? The Troubles are long over. Much to your disappointment, I'm sure.

You don't offer anybody anything. You are somebody who has yet to realize that reality does not match up with your chest thumping.

Nobody really cares about your contempt. People who think like you created the mess in the first place.

And once again, you prove that you have no real problems with people murdering innocents. The Loyalist terrorists were just as nasty, and many times more so, than the IRA. You delibrately choosing to side with them is a big part of the probelm right there. If the English people don't see anything wrong with sponsoring terrorists to attack people who are supposedly part of the U.K., you have no more right to Northern Ireland than Sudan does to Darfur.

Well, if you don't care about murderers I don't really see why I should care about buses supposedly exploding next to you.

More melodramatic tough guy talk from somebody on the Internet. Yawn.

You pretty clearly don't live in peace with people of all religions/creeds/what have you. I highly doubt the police would have repeatedly arrested you for terrorism, as you claimed very early on in this thread, if you did. And it's pretty clear you hate Catholics.

Yet more melodramatic posturing. Don't you ever get tired of it?

Yet another "innocent people are all terrorists" rant.

Yes, it's pretty clear that you think you are some tough guy, and you can justify the murder of innocent people very easily to yourself.

No you can't. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that you are living in peace with people of all creeds, and then declare that you can "make the IRA look like schoolgirls". Not only is that claim bull****, it's also the exact opposite of what you previously claimed, and claimed again in the last paragraph.

Frankly, I'm not surprised the police kept an eye on you. You sound like one of those hang-about flunkies who always end up taking the rap when the police bust somebody for murder or drugs.

PeteEU said:

Kinda odd no one posted this one. But there was an election in Northern Ireland and the Unionists lost big time. This means that the chance of a united Ireland is bigger than ever, as the Unionists cant block legislation leading to such an event. Add to that, Brexit and just maybe there is a good chance of an United Ireland.

For the first time in my life, the prospect of a united Ireland is not only credible but inevitable | The Independent


One has to wonder if it is possible.

Click to expand...

Tough to say. I'm guess religious freedom is going to be a question in that debate. I wonder how it will go?


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Higgins86 said:

So you support the IRA? An organization that spent decades killing innocent men, women and children? Planting nail bombs in busy high streets....

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The IRA wasn't just a terrorist organization. There is the IRA and the PIRA. Then you have the old ira and so on. It gets really confusing. :/


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german hick said:

once more: nobody here was in favor of terror or killings, for me it´s just about understanding and seeing both sides of the medal

your world view is a quite comfortable one, made for someone who is on the sunny side of the conflikt, who has his own peace, his own mighty country wich told and tells people from the other side how they have to manage their Island and ruled and in part still rules it. Make a proposal how they should have handled it. Voting? Difficult if the borders are made that way you never ever have a chance to get equality. (in the times of that terror, I think now it´s better because there where people who understood that they could not handle this conflikt with an egoistic worldview like yours.)

Click to expand...

Terror is terror be it state sponsored or otherwise .. but when you terrorise a people over a long period the sh!t will eventually hit the fan and that is what happened in N Ireland in the 1960s through to the 1990s ... another is example is Israel with the Palestinians ... Isreal is a artificial state created by the yanks and British empire to make a Jewish state out of Palestine ... in the 1920s their was less than 15,000 jews living in Palestine ... Israel is doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the jews in Poland they put them into ghettos

blackjack50 said:

The IRA wasn't just a terrorist organization. There is the IRA and the PIRA. Then you have the old ira and so on. It gets really confusing. :/


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Click to expand...

the ira like the loyalists were involved in organised crime in their areas of control , drugs, gambling dens, prostitution, gun running, protection rackets etc they controlled the crime in their communities

blackjack50 said:

The IRA wasn't just a terrorist organization. There is the IRA and the PIRA. Then you have the old ira and so on. It gets really confusing. :/


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Click to expand...

What was/is confusing you? Splinter groups are a common occurrence amongst terrorist.

gunner said:

What was/is confusing you? Splinter groups are a common occurrence amongst terrorist.

Click to expand...

So the Irish had no right to freedom? I'm going back to the 1920s here man.


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Godric1970 said:

the ira like the loyalists were involved in organised crime in their areas of control , drugs, gambling dens, prostitution, gun running, protection rackets etc they controlled the crime in their communities

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Yes. But there was more to it than that. Again. You gotta go back to the 1920s and really back to the Easter rebellion. Do you believe Ireland is a legitimate free state?


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Andalublue said:

The British government never admitted that the Troubles were ever a 'war'. I guess you're concurring with the IRA's position here.

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From the most powerful player in the 'peace' talks: "We spent a lot of time together when I was President and I wanted to honour him for what he did, for changing from war to peace and to emphasise that, its' one thing to make a peace, another thing to make it work and that's an endless process."

Clinton making it clear it was a War

Martin McGuinness 'was freedom fighter, not terrorist' - Martin McGuinness 'was freedom fighter, not terrorist' - BBC News

blackjack50 said:

So the Irish had no right to freedom? I'm going back to the 1920s here man.


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Click to expand...

That wasn't my question.

gunner said:

That wasn't my question.

Click to expand...

I'm aware. I asked it. Not you. The quotes give it away.

So.

Do the Irish have a right to a free nation?

I took a class on history terrorism in college. Was a good class. This was one of the hard topics to cover as it relates to the definition of terrorism. Because by the definition that most would come too...we did the same thing exiting British rule in the 1700s.


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blackjack50 said:

I'm aware. I asked it. Not you. The quotes give it away.

So.

Do the Irish have a right to a free nation?

I took a class on history terrorism in college. Was a good class. This was one of the hard topics to cover as it relates to the definition of terrorism. Because by the definition that most would come too...we did the same thing exiting British rule in the 1700s.


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Click to expand...

If you're talking about the 1700s, you would be aware of the Fenian Raids. I'm referring to you saying it was confusing. Again, what's the confusing part? The history of splinter and breakaway groups is well documented.

Wessexman said:

To say Brexit causes trouble in Northern Ireland because it establishes a border is surely to insult the Unionists? After all, they want a border precisely because they feel themselves as British, not Irish. Much of the talk about the problems seems to come from either pro-EU people or pro-Nationalists (or, usually, people who are both at the same time).

Click to expand...

Not true. If the North wishes to stay in the EU, then there could be problems. That's all I'm referring to. BUT, then again, the unionists might just go the way of England, and IF the Republicans want to stay with the EU they will want a free Northern Ireland. Which is pretty much hat you're saying.

Tigerace117 said:

I highly doubt it. Without an active insurgency forcing the British public to pay attention to how things were in Northern Ireland, it's likely the Protestants would have been left to continue things in the same old way. And even nonviolence is no guarantee that the British government would have respected them. Look at what happened to Gandhi.

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You are talking about two completely different time periods and situations. Things in the 60s and 70s weren't like that in Britain. It is vanishingly unlikely much official discrimination would have continued much longer. I do agree with Peter Hitchens that it would have been better to have originally had rule from Westminster.

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things the civil rights abuses of Catholics were relatively minor. A murderous campaign of terrorist violence was certainly not needed. It is interesting to see you seem to have moved into open support of this campaign.

Despite the chest pounding, it wasn't exactly a "shameful surrender" but rather a negotiated exit. A draw, if you will.

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I think it was a surrender. For a start, we have more or less brought the PIRA to its knees. Secondly, you don't give in the terrorism.

Civil rights marches being attacked by the police and by Protestant paramilitaries isn't "an escalation of violence"? Seems to me the Catholics only ramped up to match what had been happening to them.

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You mean civil rights marches in which there were armed PIRA paramilitaries hiding? You have your timeline mixed up.

Any association should not have been tolerated. The UVF was just as bad, and in some cases worse, than the PIRA.

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Perhaps. I'm certainly not happy about connections, but I wouldn't necessarily rule them out definitively. I also don't think they are bad. At least they did not start the pointless violence and terror.