Brexit defeat for UK government over EU citizen rights

joG said:

That is odd, as leaving the group decision making mechanism always alters the group's decision making by rebalancing. In the case of the EU with its mixture of majority criteria this is especially the case. And as the organization is at the cusp of change, these balances will have the potential of massive impact. Even were the UK to abstain, its very membership would almost certainly change the results of decisions compared to its already having exited.

As the 5 alternatives imply very different paths of development of the EU, untimely exit would be utter negligence.

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I think you overestimate what changes the UK will be able to push in the next few years. Yes the act of leaving is going to cause the EU to change that goes without saying (or should have), but it is unlikely it will be towards something the UK wants as opposed to what the larger remaining EU members will want. Unless they are the same thing the remaining major members will stall any significant policy changes the UK wants but they do not.

The longer it stays in the more likely the Brexit supporters become upset at the lack of progress, and vote out the current leadership.

joG said:

Yes Eu majorities are odd. Have you ever done the calculations or even looked up which countries can attain a majority for policies of which type and procedure of introduction? Odd is quite the word to come to mind. I know a good number of journalists and European politicians, but not one that can say for sure which countries will be required for a majority and given policy without looking it up. Some are quite clear and others depend on how you interpret them.

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I still think the fact the EU is moving on without the UK, has not sunk in with you. Forget your silly notion of early or late Brexit, our influence on EU business will be minimal at best. Read the following, the part where it says May is to attend her last meeting, not in opposition to the EU. Can you not get it?


Poland threatens 'whole EU summit' over Tusk vote - Poland threatens 'whole EU summit' over Tusk vote - BBC News

Brexit is one big defeat for the UK govt.
But what can they do about it?

Either this is a democracy or no one has to listen to them at all.

The UK will be able to change the EU just as much from outside. They still want the same things from us they did yesterday.
But they are no longer in a position to get them from us by simply voting. Now they must bring something we value to trade.

We have more influence outside the EU than in.

Baff said:

Brexit is one big defeat for the UK govt.
But what can they do about it?

Either this is a democracy or no one has to listen to them at all.

The UK will be able to change the EU just as much from outside. They still want the same things from us they did yesterday.
But they are no longer in a position to get them from us by simply voting. Now they must bring something we value to trade.

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You are aware of the trade deficit UK has with EU, I take it?

We have more influence outside the EU than in.

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On how the EU organizes itself?

What is this, old imperial nostalgia?

I am aware of the UK's trade deficit with the EU yes. WTO rules should fix that. It works well with everyone else.
About time too!

I don't seek any influence at all in how the EU organises itself. Couldn't care less. Not part of it, not my affair. When I say they must bring something to the table I value in order to get concession from me, that is not something I value.

So they get nothing in return for it, where before they did. And hence our influence is greater outside the EU than inside. Since now they actually have to offer good deals I want, to get anything in return from me and I no longer have to accept empty platitudes in exchange for actual money.

Baff said:

I am aware of the UK's trade deficit with the EU yes. WTO rules should fix that. It works well with everyone else.
About time too!

I don't seek any influence at all in how the EU organises itself. Couldn't care less. Not part of it, not my affair. When I say they must bring something to the table I value in order to get concession from me, that is not something I value.

So they get nothing in return for it, where before they did. And hence our influence is greater outside the EU than inside. Since now they actually have to offer good deals I want, to get anything in return from me and I no longer have to accept empty platitudes in exchange for actual money.

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So what, IYO will they be wanting from you (us, if you like)?

What is it that you (we, if you like) will be wanting from them?

From me they will be wanting more sightseeing tours of Cambridge and London. More punt trips up the river. More English lessons. More food and drink in a fun and relaxing environment.
School books. Proof reading services for their translations. Coffee shops, kids entertainment centres, TV shows nightclubs and music events.

What do I want? Belgian Chocolates.
I'm not really worried about the EU old boy. I want it not to try and kill me. And not to get me killed in any way.

I want all their sexy women to fancy me. And shave.

But I'm not really interested in it all to be honest with you. There are other foreigners that I prefer to work and play with. So I just don't want to know.

Baff said:

From me they will be wanting more sightseeing tours of Cambridge and London. More punt trips up the river. More English lessons. More food and drink in a fun and relaxing environment.
School books. Proof reading services for their translations. Coffee shops, kids entertainment centres, TV shows nightclubs and music events.

What do I want? Belgian Chocolates.
I'm not really worried about the EU old boy. I want it not to try and kill me. And not to get me killed in any way.

I want all their sexy women to fancy me. And shave.

But I'm not really interested in it all to be honest with you. There are other foreigners that I prefer to work and play with. So I just don't want to know.

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I think it's already been pointed out to you that it's a better idea to use the "reply with quote" button at the bottom of the post you wish to respond to. Otherwise no one will know who you're replying to and the person you're responding to will not be notified.

Beyond which I find your above post to be of so little substance as not to merit any further address as far as I'm concerned.

So, have a nice weekend and bye.

Thanks, you too.
I feel the same way about the EU. Nothing there I seek to engage with. Got something better to do.

gunner said:

I still think the fact the EU is moving on without the UK, has not sunk in with you. Forget your silly notion of early or late Brexit, our influence on EU business will be minimal at best. Read the following, the part where it says May is to attend her last meeting, not in opposition to the EU. Can you not get it?


Poland threatens 'whole EU summit' over Tusk vote - Poland threatens 'whole EU summit' over Tusk vote - BBC News

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Talking about silly notions, you might want to try and understand that just being in the Eu vs out has a major impact on the majority calculation. This is true even where the U.K. abstains.

joG said:

Talking about silly notions, you might want to try and understand that just being in the Eu vs out has a major impact on the majority calculation. This is true even where the U.K. abstains.

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FFS STFU about "majority calculation". The UK are leaving, and nothing major other than the condition of that departure will be discussed from here on out.

Chagos said:

So what, IYO will they be wanting from you (us, if you like)?

What is it that you (we, if you like) will be wanting from them?

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Alright I've got one for you.
I've told you want I want for me and what I offer. Which is loads in exchange for some chocolates that will get me laid. Now I'll put my "we" head on and answer the same question.


I want this for us.
I want everyone who voted to stay in the EU to stay in the EU and everyone who voted to leave to leave.
Not as the UK, but as individuals.

I want the UK to set up, Judge Judy/Sharia/Beth Gen style courts for the EU. So UK subjects can agree to be arbitrated by them. Agree to pay taxes to them. Agree to follow their laws and standards with them, receive benefits from them. And equally at the same time, all those who do not wish to, don't have to.

What the EU can do for me is become a liberal system.

And what we can do in return is not nuke your fascist arses off the face of the earth forever this time. Once and for all.

And you can become an enlightened society, do this for all your citizens. Respect them.
And from this trans-nationality you can become a global movement to rival any in size and strength. Not by coercion and force and subterfuge, but by honest mutual co-operation and unity of spirit.
So embrace liberty. Win. Get every thing you want and not get utterly destroyed by your neighbours. Just be a liberal. Just refuse to force your political will on others who don't agree with it. Just reject fascism for me again please.

That's what I want from the EU.
I offer them the world, in exchange for abandoning fascism.

What do you want from them and what are you willing to pay to get it?

Baff said:

Alright I've got one for you.

I want this for us.
I want everyone who voted to stay in the EU to stay in the EU and everyone who voted to leave to leave.
Not as the UK, but as individuals.

I want the UK to set up, Judge Judy/Sharia/Beth Gen style courts for the EU. So UK subjects can agree to be arbitrated by them. Agree to pay taxes to them. Agree to follow their laws and standards with them, receive benefits from them. And equally at the same time, all those who do not wish to, don't have to.

What the EU can do for me is become a liberal system.

And what we can do in return is not nuke your fascist arses off the face of the earth forever this time. Once and for all.

And you can become an enlightened society, do this for all your citizens. Respect them.
And from this trans-nationality you can become a global movement to rival any in size and strength. Not by coercion and force and subterfuge, but by honest mutual co-operation and unity of spirit.
So embrace liberty. Win. Get every thing you want and not get utterly destroyed by your neighbours. Just be a liberal. Just refuse to force your political will on others who don't agree with it. Just reject fascism for me again please.

That's what I want from the EU.
I offer them the world, in exchange for abandoning fascism.

What do you want from them and what are you willing to pay to get it?

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I think the first of April is still 19 days away so you'll have to wait for my answer til then.:mrgreen:

gunner said:

I still think the fact the EU is moving on without the UK, has not sunk in with you. Forget your silly notion of early or late Brexit, our influence on EU business will be minimal at best.

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As the EU's single biggest customer, I think you will find that our influence with EU businesses will remain unrivalled.
Sorry petty bureaucrats, but none of the UK's successes are anything to do with you.

Take you out of the equation, things get cheaper and work faster. That is all.
An extra layer of fat arsed parasites. Unnecessary. Unhelpful. Flea powder applied.