Ensuring integration / assimilation

Auvergnat · Dec 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
One of the most inclusive, prosperous and peaceful governments in human history was under Islam in Al-Andalus...

No, this is Islamic propaganda. Unfortunately now spread by some European public schools in the name of "living together", schools that insist to present Islam under a favorable light, and erase the violent realities of the Islamic civilization and the Christian-Muslims relationships. Our official school books and public medias became scandalous cases of pro-Islam revisionism.

In Al-Andalus non-Muslims were dhimmi: people with a lesser legal status. The taxes were higher, they suffered many restrictions (professions, clothes, religious buildings, protocols) and many were enslaved. And eventually Muslims decided to forcefully convert all non-Muslims in Andalusia, which ironically triggered the reconquista.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
Not at all, we did exactly what we had to do: split this region into a Sunni country (Syria) and a Shia country (Iraq).

What absolute balderdash demonstrating your blatant ignorance of history.

So the country designated to be primarily Sunni gets an Alawite elite imposed on it for governance and the other one (designed to be primarily Shia) a Sunni one?

For those interested in more than just nonsense, the rule of an Alawite elite in Syria goes straight back to French colonial policy, as does the rule of a Sunni elite go back to British colonial policy in Iraq.

Sunnis and Shias still managed to slaughter each other in Syria and Iraq, but at least the ethnic cleansings have been likely smaller than what we would have seen without this split.

Two words. Bovine manure.

Moreover I am tired of ......................

I suspect that where by now nobody is particularly interested in what YOU are tired of, they're getting pretty tired of your ignorance of history leading to the distortions you submit it to.

Rest of your post (see gish gallop) not appearing to be worthy of further address.

joG · Dec 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
And you had to bring in the EU for some idiotic reason.... again, the EU has nothing to do with national immigration policies, and never has been. The EU is not at fault for the "muslim immigration" that places like France, the UK and others have seen.. that is a national issue and always has been.

It is in fact you that refuse to debate the topic and instead want to pull in irrelevant **** that has nothing to do with this thread. I am willing to discuss immigration, but you are not. It is not the fault of the EU, that Germany and Denmark invited up millions of Turks in the 1960s and 70s. It is not the fault of the EU that France and the UK have had very liberal immigration laws when it comes to their former colonies. It is not the fault of the EU that Belgium or Holland have the immigration rules they had. It is not the fault of the EU that Germany until recently did not have Egypt as a safe country and allowed in thousands of Egyptians as refugees.

So lets debate immigration and the problems that each country is facing on integration and assimilation and leave out the EU. Can you at least do that?

Firstly, that was about immigration and how it works. Secondly, your name brings the EU touch to European topics that you discuss. Here it was by applying a false time horizon to a long term social phenomenon in your take. This is a very EU approach

PeteEU · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
It just happens that the more violent conflicts almost all involve Muslims. I cannot be blamed for this.

They also involve Christians and Hindus.. or is that conveniently forgotten?

The Koran orders Muslims to not befriend non-Muslims, to spread Islam through conquests, to create Islamic governments with Islamic laws and hold non-Muslims under a lesser status, and it allows Muslims to enslave non-Muslims.

Is it your definition of inclusive?!

It does?

Those are orders. Not recommendations. A Muslim who does befriend you is a Muslim who violates the orders from his god.

They are? Where you learn that.. at "I hate Muslims college"?

And what does the Bible say about such things?

Auvergnat · Dec 19, 2016

Chagos said:
So the country designated to be primarily Sunni gets an Alawite elite imposed on it for governance and the other one (designed to be primarily Shia) a Sunni one?

The Shias were in power before the split and they logically remained in power after. We initially created a democratic parliament to circumvent this but of course it did not last.

At best you can blame us for supporting Chichkali (Kurd) after a streak of coups unrelated to us, but we did not impose him. And he was overthrown by the Baas with the help of Russia. The Assad dynasty started with an anti-colonial hero and was supported by the USSR.

What we have seen during the recent war is simply yet another attempt from Sunnis to legitimately seize the control of their country, decades after their independence. There will be more wars until Sunnis finally control Syria, and Kurds the Kurdistan.

You cannot blame us for that.

Two words. Bovine manure.

Do you think there would have been less slaughters if we had kept Syria and Iraq together, split between Sunni territories and Shia ones? What is the rational?

Face it: the split was for their best interest.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
No, this is Islamic propaganda. Unfortunately now spread by some European public schools in the name of "living together", schools that insist to present Islam under a favorable light, and erase the violent realities of the Islamic civilization and the Christian-Muslims relationships. Our official school books and public medias became scandalous cases of pro-Islam revisionism.

In Al-Andalus non-Muslims were dhimmi: people with a lesser legal status. The taxes were higher, they suffered many restrictions (professions, clothes, religious buildings) and many were enslaved. And eventually Muslims decided to forcefully convert all non-Muslims in Andalusia, which ironically triggered the reconquista.

Yeah, you know nothing.

Just to deal with that last statement (and frankly, just for the hell of it), the reconquista found its beginning already long before the Almoravids and Alhomads invaded Muslim Spain nearly 3 centuries after Muslims first defeated the ruling Goths.

Ever heard of Pelayo?

Yeah, I thought as much. :roll:

As to your asinine claim in the first sentence, it is so devoid of actual fact that it's not worth addressing.

If there's anyone presenting an idiotic distortion of history here, we know who.

PeteEU · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
Not at all, we did exactly what we had to do: split this region into a Sunni country (Syria) and a Shia country (Iraq).

No we did not. Iraq is 3 groups.. Shia, Kurd and Sunni. Same with Syria. The borders were unnatural from the start.

Sunnis and Shias still managed to slaughter each other in Syria and Iraq, but at least the ethnic cleansings have been likely smaller than what we would have seen without this split.

It is tribal more than religious. Ignorance and poverty and very strong family/tribal bindings cause this.. religion is just a stupid excuse.

Moreover I am tired of seeing people blame us for the colonial borders. For one someone had to draw borders and we cannot be held accountable for the fact they had never been able to form nations. Second of all we reused existing borders as often as possible, whether pastoral, feudal, tribal, historical, etc. Third of all we took into account identity partitions, which saved Africa for even more blood sheds.

Well we are to blame for the piss poor borders and putting puppet dictators in place. Lebanon for example, should never have been done the way it was. It should at least have been 2 if not 3 separate administration areas and later countries. But the French wanted to create a Christian state in the Middle East, so they gerryrigged a country like Lebanon together. Of course it collapsed later on and is still very much divided. Only thing that is holding it together is sheer grit and determination and not so much meddling in other groups areas. Syria is no better. Having the Shia sect Alawites dominate a mostly Sunni country and not divide it up into at least two if not 3 countries.. sheer madness. Another great French idea. Even the Ottomans knew that it would never work, which is why they kept the area under control for 500+ years based on tribal and ethnic lines and not some made up crap that fit some ideology thousands of kms away.

Auvergnat · Dec 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
They also involve Christians and Hindus.. or is that conveniently forgotten?

I didn't deny this. I do not claim that it is all the fault of Muslims, I claim different identities can rarely live together and that assimilation does not automatically happen.

Once again Islam is simply worse, but those problems are not exclusive to Islam. They are problems that ccur when different identities have to live together. More often than not it ends up with a blood bath.

It does?

It does. Read it; it is comparable to Mein Kampf

It starts better though: the young Muhammad was simply a naive idealist albeit already dangerously totalitarian. This is only later that he became that monstrous and tyrannical warlord whose hands were stanched by rapes and slaughters. This is where the worse parts of the Koran are found.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
The Shias were in power before the split

BS.

Twas the Turks and then the French.

The rest of the subsequent and usual gish gallop I wont even address and God forbid ever discuss any rationale with you.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
Well I dont really anymore as I lost both my parents close to Christmas (mother 4 years ago and dad last year),

sorry to hear that

That explains a lot.. so you are the reason there is so much turmoil around the world!?

Yup, it's all me

"Allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a man of wealth and fame..........................":mrgreen:

You up near Granada no? How was the rains the last few days or did it not reach you from the Valencia area?

No, that's Andy. I'm East of Malaga city but still in the province. Near the coast but around 400 meters up.

Neither the flooding further East got here, nor the recent one in Malaga city and a bit further West. When heavy rain gets here it's less a case of people drowning or houses floating away. What does get affected are roads that subside. Otherwise "high and dry" here, even where not always that dry.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

In any case, maybe this thread can now move away again from the customary derailment to the pet peeve of others, and address the original topic as per OP's intention.

Which is how to go about ensuring better integration/assimilation of migrants.

Auvergnat · Dec 19, 2016

Chagos said:
Ever heard of Pelayo?

Ever heard of the causes of his rebellion, the implementation of dhimmitude, especially heavy taxes?

Dhimmiude was the main weapon of conversion for Muslims.

PeteEU said:
No we did not. Iraq is 3 groups.. Shia, Kurd and Sunni. Same with Syria. The borders were unnatural from the start.

And we tried to fix things where we could. But in some places groups are too intertwined, and this is where ethnic cleansings always take place. Separate nations are the best bet.

Lebanon for example, should never have been done the way it was. It should at least have been 2 if not 3 separate administration areas and later countries. But the French wanted to create a Christian state in the Middle East, so they gerryrigged a country like Lebanon together.

Given how Christians have been cleansed from all other Muslim countries since a few decades, maybe it was not such a bad idea. This has plausibly saved many Christians.

It is tribal more than religious.

It is identity. Humans tend to spontaneously split themselves into distinct identities and this yields all sort of problems. Usually their identities recompose around religious differences, skin color differences or geographical partitions.

Of all of them, geography is the less likely to degenerate because it offers less opportunities for conflicts: there are less interactions between countries than within them, and their politics and power games are mostly independent.

Auvergnat · Dec 19, 2016

Chagos said:
BS.

Twas the Turks and then the French.

But the local rulers were Shia in this region.

Chagos · Dec 19, 2016

Auvergnat said:
Ever heard .........................~

Auvergnat said:
But .................~

I'm done with your constant derailment of any thread you enter towards your favourite pet peeve.

As I'm done with encouraging that by further responding.

If your solution to the problem originally presented is one of "keep 'em all out", possibly followed by "......and deport the bunch already here", say so and be done.

PeteEU · Dec 19, 2016

Chagos said:
No, that's Andy. I'm East of Malaga city but still in the province. Near the coast but around 400 meters up.

Neither the flooding further East got here, nor the recent one in Malaga city and a bit further West. When heavy rain gets here it's less a case of people drowning or houses floating away. What does get affected are roads that subside. Otherwise "high and dry" here, even where not always that dry.

Could swear there was another one further up the coast from Andy. But yea East Malaga missed most of the bad floods and water we got west of Malaga. Hey at least the water reservoirs are getting filled up.