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The "Muslim Problem": First hand experience?

Have you encountered "the Muslim problem" first hand?

  • No, there are (next to) no Muslims in my environment.

    Votes: 3 9.1%
  • I'm European, but no, there are Muslims, but it's always been peaceful.

    Votes: 8 24.2%
  • I'm European, and yes, I've experienced instances of being harassed on ethnic grounds.

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • I'm European, and yes, it happens on a regular basis.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm American, but no, there are Muslims, but it's always been peaceful.

    Votes: 16 48.5%
  • I'm American, and yes, I've experienced instances of being harassed on ethnic grounds.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm American, and yes, it happens on a regular basis.

    Votes: 1 3.0%
  • other

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • Total voters
    33
No... it's a little long. Can you provide a summary, please?

It's pretty good, although a bit jumpy. I need to see it again to get a firm handle on it. But, I can probably sum up pretty well.

It starts in 1975, basically when America followed two simultaneous paths: full corporate ownership of NYC and Kissinger's divide and conquer strategy in the ME. The rest of the two hours lays out what's happened since. Like I said, it's pretty good.

It certainly tells me where Trump intends to go.
 
I should have been more clear. First Muslim Suicide bombers. It used to be against their religion to commit suicide. ..................................~
Well, clear lack of gunpowder obviously prevented bombing at the time, but murder committed with little regard for own life (as in suicide attack) was quite the fashion as early as the 11th century with them.

Where do you reckon the tag "assassin" hails from?
 
There is a lot of talk about Muslims allegedly taking over quarters of entire cities. Gangs, no-go areas, and so on.

People say they feel "no longer at home" in their home country, because Muslims allegedly do not just exist side to side with them, but actually display threatening behavior -- harassing or insulting Europeans/Westeners, using their high numbers to intimidate them.


I'm curious: How many of you have experienced this first hand? How many have just read about it? And if it's the latter, where have you read or heard about it?


As for myself, all these terrible things you read and hear of, I've never experienced myself. I live in Berlin, and here are plenty Muslims. There are quarters that even have a predominantly Muslim "look" -- if you count shops run by people with roots in a Muslim country, in this case Turkish. I've often been in these quarters, even at night.

I currently do a formation, and in my school, about a third of the students has roots in a Muslim country. Out of 30 students, 8 young women wear a headscarf.

Yet my impression is: There is no problem. I've never encountered hostile behavior by Muslim immigrants which I wouldn't expect from natives too under certain conditions, save for a certain rudeness occasionally (in these regards, not different from the rudeness many natives display occasionally). The headscarf girls in the school don't separate themselves, but join talks with all other students, share their plans and dreams, or talk about the latest movie or PS4 game they played.

I asked some of them if they're wearing the scarf out of religious conviction, or tradition. Many didn't even know a real answer, said they aren't really very religious, said it was just for the sake of their relatives. One said it's both, and when we talked about Islam, I found she's not radical at all -- she expressed regret that Mouhanad Khorchide, a liberal modernist German-Muslim theologician, meets so much hostility from "conservatives".

Two or three Turkish immigrant women do not wear a scarf -- they said they identify as "laicists".

No "parallel culture" in that class, as far as I can see.

What does bother me, are bunches of adolescent male Muslim immigrants, who are annoying, because they're loud, obnoxious and disrespectful on the street -- but as I said above, no real threat. Either you change the side of the street when you see them, or when you do meet them, telling them firmly to just cut the crap will usually do the trick. I've never encountered them becoming a real threat.


There were two more serious incidents in my environment, involving a Muslim perpetrator. But it was possible in these cases to attach individual blame, rather than basing it on ethnicity.


So what about you? Have you first hand experience with "the Muslim problem"?

I am around a lot of Muslim immigrants. I don't feel threatened or anything because of them. I also attend a mosque on rare occasions, and when I do, I often wear a hijab/head scarf. In the mosque, the kids behave like normal kids. Men are respectful to the women, hold doors open for us, etc.

The last time I went to the mosque, the discussion was about the death of the prophet and how he told the people to not worship him and to worship God. During the life of the prophet, some people thought they should worship the prophet himself. They were confused. The prophet's followers went to those people and told them, "he is dead now, but God lives."
 
Well, clear lack of gunpowder obviously prevented bombing at the time, but murder committed with little regard for own life (as in suicide attack) was quite the fashion as early as the 11th century with them.

Where do you reckon the tag "assassin" hails from?

My understanding is that reckless attacks were perfectly acceptable, because you put your life in Allah's hands. Dying for your cause, Islam, was always acceptable. It is intentionally killing yourself for the cause which is new to Islam.
 
My understanding is that reckless attacks were perfectly acceptable, because you put your life in Allah's hands. Dying for your cause, Islam, was always acceptable. It is intentionally killing yourself for the cause which is new to Islam.
Well, the intention at the time was often clearly "death by cop".

Or bodyguard, if you like.
 
Shared histories, common language, blended cultures, assimilation and common interests...we aren't Europe with your 1,000-year hatreds among tribes that are 5,000 years old.

Wait what?

So you are saying that the French immigrants did not have issues with the English immigrants? Or Americans did not have issues with Irish and Italian immigrants? What shared histories did Italians exactly have with Americans? Or Irish? Their love of potatoes? What common language? French spoke French, Latinos spoke.. Spanish, Italians spoke you guessed it.. Italian. Germans, spoke what?

And speaking of 1000 year hatreds... hello? France and England were at war for over 100 years once! Irish absolutely hated the British!
 
My understanding is that reckless attacks were perfectly acceptable, because you put your life in Allah's hands. Dying for your cause, Islam, was always acceptable. It is intentionally killing yourself for the cause which is new to Islam.

'Violence more common' in Bible than Quran, text analysis reveals | The Independent

No, what is new (and actually old), is that someone is exploiting parts of a holy book to justify crimes. Just like the Pope did, to justify the raping of Constantinople by crusaders (he needed money).
 
Well, the intention at the time was often clearly "death by cop".

Or bodyguard, if you like.

That's technically not suicide. It's...putting life in Allah's hands. Sure, your odds are slim, but you might just make it. :)
 
Wait what?

So you are saying that the French immigrants did not have issues with the English immigrants? Or Americans did not have issues with Irish and Italian immigrants? What shared histories did Italians exactly have with Americans? Or Irish? Their love of potatoes? What common language? French spoke French, Latinos spoke.. Spanish, Italians spoke you guessed it.. Italian. Germans, spoke what?

And speaking of 1000 year hatreds... hello? France and England were at war for over 100 years once! Irish absolutely hated the British!

Immigrants assimilate. Second, third generation French, Italian, Irish, German, etc. are not at all different from each other. Hell, I'm first gen born American from a family of immigrants. I share more in common with my 10th generation wife than I do my parents and cousins who were born overseas.

The only groups that do not fair well are those who insist on holding onto their gripes and cultural identity. That is a failure in the US. One needs to do as Romans when in Rome. Most Americans do just that.

Very few people in the US identify with their ethnic identity more than their American one. And, like I said, those who do, tend to fail...miserably.
 
I currently live in a very multicultural area of Virginia and there are plenty of Muslims. No problems. I also lived in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, for three three years and was treated with nothing but respect. I lived in Libya for almost a year and did have some problems. Also, both my wife and the female Sergeant who worked for me were accosted. Fortunately, the Libyan security officials who were tasked with monitoring our movements came to their rescues.
 
I'm curious: How many of you have experienced this first hand?
I grew up in a Muslim neighborhood. There is no other way to put it: the majority were Muslims and it was a Muslim culture.

Initially I avoided them: it was a disgusting place and I started to hate Muslims, who were very racist and gross. Later I made some friends, purposely ignored the many bad parts of them, and got preached by some adults against racism. So I turned pro-Muslim, probably out of loyalty to my friends, to integrate myself in the politically correct French society, and because like many I genuinely thought that problems would recess with time.

Except that problems did not recess, they got worse. The number of Muslim engineers widely increased, but so did the number of Islamic clothes (in my time only wore by a few rural mamas that even Muslims kids were having fun of). And so did the Mosques, Islamic activism, Islamist figures, Islamic identity, etc. My neighborhood is far worse today than it was when I was a kid, the left let the working class down, and they started betraying all of their values to buy Muslim votes.


For twenty years I persisted defending Muslims, and every year proved me to be more wrong than the previous one. I grew tired of it. So I started looking for data and analyses, and I turned to social sciences, to understand what went wrong. The more I did read, the more my positions shifted. At some point you have to admit you were wrong all along.

And of course I got older, and therefore fiercer, more confident, more combative, more selfish, and no longer willing to do bad compromises. As you age you care less about what others think. And I no longer live in poor neighborhoods with Muslims. I purposely chose a white wealthy neighborhood where kids respectfully salute their teacher. I never regret my childhood's neighborhood.
 
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Immigrants assimilate. Second, third generation French, Italian, Irish, German, etc. are not at all different from each other. Hell, I'm first gen born American from a family of immigrants. I share more in common with my 10th generation wife than I do my parents and cousins who were born overseas.

Wait what.... You say immigrants assimilate... second, third and so on. I see.. do you know what generation most Muslim immigrants are in? And that as you stated, the 2nd+ generation Muslim immigrants are far far far more assimilated than those that are new and on first generation.... I know this from personal experience btw.. they are. Newly arrived and 1st generation.. well.. that is a crap suit, but that is the same for any migrant from anywhere, including American migrants to Europe or else where.

The only groups that do not fair well are those who insist on holding onto their gripes and cultural identity. That is a failure in the US. One needs to do as Romans when in Rome. Most Americans do just that.

Wait what... so the Irish could not hold on to their own cultural identity? Nor the Italians, Jews and others? Are you ****ing serious? Guess St. Patricks day, Cinco de Mayo and all those other holidays you guys love to hold just got invented by Americans and not some ethnic minority eh?

Very few people in the US identify with their ethnic identity more than their American one. And, like I said, those who do, tend to fail...miserably.

Yea that is why they identify themselves as "Italian American" or Latino, or Black.. yea no people in the US identify themselves and certainly not others based on their ethnic identity.... so all those Americans and Trump lovers who spew out "Muslims out".. they are not identifying Americans based on an ethnic or religious identity? That those idiots who have attacked and killed Sikhs because they thought they were Muslims.. have not done so based on some sort of identifying based on ethnicity or religion?
 
My understanding is that reckless attacks were perfectly acceptable, because you put your life in Allah's hands. Dying for your cause, Islam, was always acceptable. It is intentionally killing yourself for the cause which is new to Islam.

Martyrdom is not new to Islam. It is not suicide.
 
Yet my impression is: There is no problem.
Of course: they are civilized, they behave in a collective environment.

But half of them are homophobe, antisemite, they want to jail blasphemers, they oppose the teaching of the Shoah and evolution, and they decided they would never be your friend, unless they think you may convert. If you want to marry one, this half will require that you convert and teach Islam to your kids, and the other half will be pestered to pester you. Given the choice, they would build a more Islamic society. And if you do criticize Islam, they will call you racist, solder together and play victimhood to convince others. And if you were brown and not doing the Ramadan, they would get on your nerves or threaten you until you complied, or worse.

Do you think Nazis went rampaging anytime you met them? No, some of them were charming and had a great sense of humor. Some befriended their Jewish colleagues or at least made efforts to respectfully speak to them.

I asked some of them if they're wearing the scarf out of religious conviction, or tradition. Many didn't even know a real answer, said they aren't really very religious, said it was just for the sake of their relatives. One said it's both
For many of them it is for identity reasons, to mark their belonging to the Muslim group an sometimes dissociate themselves from you (racism is strong in Arab communities). And for others it is because Muslims less and less have the choice to not be Muslims, especially Muslim girls.

No "parallel culture" in that class, as far as I can see.
There is. But you have to understand that individuals make efforts to blend in a foreign environment.

Also Turks are less troublesome than others. There are pronounced differences between Turkey's polls and other Muslim countries.
 
Guess there aren't many in Texas? :lol:

You're absolutely incorrect. There is a mosque in my city. Most Muslims that I know are in Information Technology. The suburb of Dallas that I live in has a median income of over US $100,000 per year. There are many Muslims and Hindus. I actually prefer working with Muslims over Hindus because the Muslims I know are far more willing to stand on principle and resist slipshod software from being released. Many of the Hindus don't seem to take pride in what they do.
 
Wait what.... You say immigrants assimilate... second, third and so on. I see.. do you know what generation most Muslim immigrants are in? And that as you stated, the 2nd+ generation Muslim immigrants are far far far more assimilated than those that are new and on first generation.... I know this from personal experience btw.. they are. Newly arrived and 1st generation.. well.. that is a crap suit, but that is the same for any migrant from anywhere, including American migrants to Europe or else where.



Wait what... so the Irish could not hold on to their own cultural identity? Nor the Italians, Jews and others? Are you ****ing serious? Guess St. Patricks day, Cinco de Mayo and all those other holidays you guys love to hold just got invented by Americans and not some ethnic minority eh?



Yea that is why they identify themselves as "Italian American" or Latino, or Black.. yea no people in the US identify themselves and certainly not others based on their ethnic identity.... so all those Americans and Trump lovers who spew out "Muslims out".. they are not identifying Americans based on an ethnic or religious identity? That those idiots who have attacked and killed Sikhs because they thought they were Muslims.. have not done so based on some sort of identifying based on ethnicity or religion?

You have no idea what you are talking about re the US. None.
 
So you dont know your own history?

Better than you, plus I actually live here and belong to an immigrant family. You, OTOH, have no clue over what goes on here, except for the propaganda your fed.
 
Better than you, plus I actually live here and belong to an immigrant family. You, OTOH, have no clue over what goes on here, except for the propaganda your fed.

So you have read up on how immigrants integrated and were treated in the 1800s? Or even the early 1900s?
 
So you have read up on how immigrants integrated and were treated in the 1800s? Or even the early 1900s?

Last I looked this is the 20-hundreds.
 
I grew up in a Muslim neighborhood. There is no other way to put it: the majority were Muslims and it was a Muslim culture.

Initially I avoided them: it was a disgusting place and I started to hate Muslims, who were very racist and gross. Later I made some friends, purposely ignored the many bad parts of them, and got preached by some adults against racism. So I turned pro-Muslim, probably out of loyalty to my friends, to integrate myself in the politically correct French society, and because like many I genuinely thought that problems would recess with time.

Except that problems did not recess, they got worse. The number of Muslim engineers widely increased, but so did the number of Islamic clothes (in my time only wore by a few rural mamas that even Muslims kids were having fun of). And so did the Mosques, Islamic activism, Islamist figures, Islamic identity, etc. My neighborhood is far worse today than it was when I was a kid, the left let the working class down, and they started betraying all of their values to buy Muslim votes.


For twenty years I persisted defending Muslims, and every year proved me to be more wrong than the previous one. I grew tired of it. So I started looking for data and analyses, and I turned to social sciences, to understand what went wrong. The more I did read, the more my positions shifted. At some point you have to admit you were wrong all along.

And of course I got older, and therefore fiercer, more confident, more combative, more selfish, and no longer willing to do bad compromises. As you age you care less about what others think. And I no longer live in poor neighborhoods with Muslims. I purposely chose a white wealthy neighborhood where kids respectfully salute their teacher. I never regret my childhood's neighborhood.

It seems most of these stories come out of France and Belgium, at least more so than elsewhere. I never had any problems living in a neighbourhood in the UK that was mainly Pakistani and Afgan, apart from the ocasional dirty look, but no more dirty then I would getting walking into a Polish Deli, That said I have heard a lot of stories about other parts of the UK (Bradford is the main one that comes to mind, mainly just because its so segregated and both communities hate each other) so i think its very much dependent on the location and the situation therin. Any idea why France and Belgium would fare worse then other places? maybe because of recent history with Algeria etc?

I lived in a neighbourhood in Spain that was mainly Gypsy, with Morrocans coming at a close second with a few Argentines, and a sprinkling of Spaniards also. And again I found the Morrocans far more freindly then anyone else, though for some reason they are widely mistrusted among the population in general.

I also lived in Turkey for a year and can´t say i had any problems apart from one or two pretty minor incidences (one of which was my fault) but this differes enormously according to where in the country you go to (or even what part of a city) and what background someone has.

Lastly I think we need to avoid making the mistake of conflating immigration from Muslim countries with ´´Islamic immigration" given that half the off licenses (1) in some cities in England are run by people from Pakistan, and its not uncommon to see Morrocan and Syrian tapas bars in the South of Spain. Indeed a lot of these people are trying to flee Islamism and not trying to spread it.


(1) I.E stores/shops that sell alcohol to be consumed off site.
 
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And last I looked, migration of peoples goes back 10s of thousands of years...

Na. The people who matter began migrating here about 500 years ago. No one here really cares about the rest of the migrations. They don't affect real Americans.
 
Na. The people who matter began migrating here about 500 years ago. No one here really cares about the rest of the migrations. They don't affect real Americans.

I´m pretty sure the grandson (1)of immigrants just got elected president of the United States (well kinda.....) and bear in mind of course that this wave of immigration was very controversial at the time (see the ´´know nothing party´´) and yet the decendents of these immigrants are barely distinguishable from the rest of the population.

(1) and son if you count his mothers side.
 
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