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Europe needs own army, can’t rely on US forever – EU Commission President

Yeah, a gun in the house solves any logistically problem even with that.

Perhaps, though I can think of many other easily accessible ways to commit suicide. Nothing stops someone who wants to off himself; gun control isn't an exception.
 
Perhaps, though I can think of many other easily accessible ways to commit suicide. Nothing stops someone who wants to off himself, gun control isn't an exception.
Oh, I agree on those wanting to top themselves finding ways and means.

The US being surpassed by countries of less "guns per household" like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway and Netherlands (to stay within the topic of Europe) seems to confirm that where there's a will, there's also a high rise (or pharmacy or whatever).
 
Any occupier that wants to be brutal enough will stay in charge, despite a bunch of folks with hanguns and sporting rifles running about.
But as soon as the violent resistance ceases, everyone peacefully submits to the new authority after a few weeks, months or years. And then the opponent simply won, sometimes easily. On the other hand a resistance can last decades.

Can the invader use brutal means? Of course, but this will prolonge the state of conflict and nurture the view that the power in place is hostile and illegitimate. You claim that Israel won. Yes, and no: Palestinians have successfully managed to fuel the conflict for decades and prevented further land grabbing and a complete Israeli victory. Half of Israeli are ready to give up some territory for peace.

Once again resistance cannot get you a victory over a superior foe, but it can negate the foe's victory by making the cost unbearable for all but the most desperate enemies.
 
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SOLUTION

Take a step back and let them do what they wish. Your suggestions are irrelevant.

But not when they gripe about us?

My suggestions are just as relevant as any of their suggestions about the USA, if not moreso, buddy..
 
But not when they gripe about us?

.....................~
so when "they" behave idiotically, that's sufficient justification for you to do the same.

Okay, got it.
 
But as soon as the violent resistance ceases, everyone peacefully submits to the new authority after a few weeks, months or years. And then the opponent simply won, sometimes easily. On the other hand a resistance can last decades.

I suppose there can always be resistance of some sort, but if an opponent has gained his objectives, and the military conflict is over, there is not much point, unless help is seen to be on the way.

Can the invader use brutal means? Of course, but this will prolonge the state of conflict and nurture the view that the power in place is hostile and illegitimate.

Sure it can be illegitimate, but that doesn't mean it is going to be overthrown. There were uprisings in Germany, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia in the 50s and 60s, none succeeded, and Soviet policy did not change, and all soon fell in line. Change only came with political change in the Soviet Union, and even then is was a shock, and not expected. Before the 80s, it was thought the cold war would go on indefinitely.

You claim that Israel won. Yes, and no: Palestinians have successfully managed to fuel the conflict for decades and prevented further land grabbing and a complete Israeli victory. Half of Israeli are ready to give up some territory for peace.

I'd say nothing at all has prevented Israeli land grabbing, they have been subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, expanding in Palestine since 1949, at least. Palestinians, despite violent resistance at times, have been reduced to tiny reserves on some of the most non-viable land. The only thing slowing the land grab is the fear that US opinion may shift, and their benefactor will recede. So Palestinians have been somewhat successful in fueling conflict, but have achieved none of their aims.

Once again resistance cannot get you a victory over a superior foe, but it can negate the foe's victory by making the cost unbearable for all but the most desperate enemies.

I'd say the only times civil resistance has been successful is when it has morphed into something more like a military force, with a trained army, and most importantly outside support and a supply of arms. And even then, the odds are long. The original point stated here of giving everyone and his dog a gun is a long ways from that scenario. What we have seen when guns are all over the place is that more people get shot, for various reasons.
 
so when "they" behave idiotically, that's sufficient justification for you to do the same.

Okay, got it.

Lame..

The US has more say over Europe than Europe has say over the US.. Calm down so I can make this clear..

You aren't going to tell me to keep my nose out of Euro politics period, especially while plenty of your libby Euro noses are in my countries politics..


So.. You softie leftist better buck up quick and find some real men to form a decent military with, which I figure you will struggle with..

OR.. Give me my money, for providing for the security or your families for you if you yourselves are incapable..
 
Lame..

The US has more say over Europe than Europe has say over the US.. Calm down so I can make this clear..

You aren't going to tell me to keep my nose out of Euro politics period, especially while plenty of your libby Euro noses are in my countries politics..
so when "they" behave idiotically, that's sufficient justification for you to do the same.

Okay, got it.

As to the rest of your rant, takes nothing away from the original issue.
 
I suppose there can always be resistance of some sort, but if an opponent has gained his objectives, and the military conflict is over, there is not much point, unless help is seen to be on the way.
There is a point!

* Make the cost of occupation unbearable for all but the most determined invaders. Think of the US in Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, Britain against Tom Barry, ... Guerilla is a successful form of resistance. Hell, just a few terrorist actions here and there are enough to trigger heavy and taxing security devices, and to shift foreign policies.

* Create opportunities. One day they may become negligent, exhausted or weak. At this time the enraged population, furious against the invader who oppressed them and killed their families, will massively revolt. Think of colonial insurrections.

* To refuse submission. Of course submission is easier. But do you believe in your cause, in your independence, in your identity, in resistance for its own sake? If you don't, just hail your new overlord.


As for Palestinians they already achieved a very important goal: they are not peaceful Arab citizens of Israel! They would have become so without resistance. And Israel still pays a blood toll every year, is increasingly a diplomatic pariah and exceedingly cautious in how they use violence, and its population is fed up with the war. This situation may lead to opportunities.
 
Lame..

The US has more say over Europe than Europe has say over the US.. Calm down so I can make this clear..

You aren't going to tell me to keep my nose out of Euro politics period, especially while plenty of your libby Euro noses are in my countries politics..


So.. You softie leftist better buck up quick and find some real men to form a decent military with, which I figure you will struggle with..

OR.. Give me my money, for providing for the security or your families for you if you yourselves are incapable..

The US intervened in WW1 because various financial groups had lent the allies a whack of money, and their defeat might have meant they would not get it back, so....off went the doughboys.

The US intervened in WW2 because it seemed pretty likely, about 1940-41, that virulent global fascist forces would win the war, and then be in charge of the entire old world, Europe, Asia, Africa. This would have left the US in an untenably weak position, and a very dangerous one within a generation. So again, it became in America's strong self interest to intervene.

Similar situation with the cold war, except fascism was now replaced by communism. A communist world with a lone America with wagons circled in N America would have been a very weak position, and so treaties were formed.

Today China and Russia seem to still want to play the great power game, one in which the US could be disadvantaged, and so various alliances are deemed to be profitable and useful is stopping that.

Have you detected a note of altruism or generosity so far? Let me know if you do.

NATO today has substantial forces, although some countries are not paying the 2% of GDP promised for defense, it is true. In fact, in today's world it is really nuclear deterrents that are the ultimate arbitrator of a stop or go signal to mayhem. Putin would be taking a huge risk in some sort of conventional invasion, as with Russian economic status, not to mention raging cynicism, it's possible that Russian officers would be more interested in selling their weapons than using them, quite aside from the ominous possibility of nuclear retaliation.

So a US withdrawal from the world really comes down to more nuclear weapons- for Japan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Europe, some others. The problem with that for the US is, aside from the fact that now the world would be a much more unstable place, is that the US would then become just another among many. One nuclear power among a slew of them. A large economy, but soon to be overtaken by China, and the EU and Japan only a bit behind. What happens to US influence in the world then?
 
You softie leftist better buck up quick and find some real men ...

Dorks like you, with an eviscerated mentality, are what troubles most America and American politics. All bowels and no brain.

Back into the woodwork from whence you came ...
 
... virulent global fascist forces would win the war, and then be in charge of the entire old world, Europe, Asia, Africa.

We'll they are back, and the Dork is about to open the door to their investments in America - to save his sorry ass of a Trump Enterprises that is in deep, deep, deep in debt. (Why do you think he ran for PotUS? And we gave it to him.)

What better place to invest than the US for the Plutocrat Capitalists of Russia who have mopped up the Colossal Fortune represented by petroleum wealth that originally belonged to the Russian people*.

And now is the property of a clique of Russian plutocrats (of which Tsar Vladimir is the prime mover).

The Russian fascists are back in power.

See here, Time Magazine: Donald Trump’s Many, Many, Many, Many Ties to Russia

*The Russian plutocrats are not fools. In most countries, land ownership is restricted to the surface. Only in America and now in Russia are mineral-rights owned by private enterprise. When owned by the government, where and how much they can extract of any petroleum or gaseous product is determined by the state and its revenue taxed directly by the state. So, a larger share of the earth's riches go to the nation as a whole and not just to those who prospected/discovered it.
 
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It's one of those strange things, many people complain about European nations not having a strong defence force or joined up thinking with regard to working together for a mutual defence policy. When the EU proposes this it's cast down as another example of silly meddling by the EU - however if Mr Trump does pull the US out of NATO, European nations are going to have to work together pretty damn quickly to create a force and work closer together to fill the huge gap American forces will leave behind.

Trump is not going to pull out of Nato. He will level more pressure on free riders that are and have been breaking their treaty obligations.

If the EU tries to shore itself up by building a second military force, that will cause duplication and increase the costs to the member countries. Two militaries would be quite expensive. ;)
 
This would cause a European Civil War (a political one, not necessarily militarily), as the continent would become divided between NATO and Europe nations. Obviously the debate would drive a wedge in European Unity, as the issue of redundancy would inevitably cascade to the forefront, and as countries lined up to fall on either the "NATO is obsolete!" side, or the "EU is obsolete" side, you would have two blocs arguing that the opponents' preferred faction is the one that is the "correct" one to be replaced.

Logically speaking, with NATO - there is zero legit reason for an "EU Army"...

That is very well observed. Additionally the costs would go up and it is questionable that either organization could project power as well as Nato. There would be a major danger of confrontation between core Nato and the new EU military that would let political deterioration between the major countries develop along Putin's desired path.
 
But not when they gripe about us?

My suggestions are just as relevant as any of their suggestions about the USA, if not moreso, buddy..

Aye, ignore them when they gripe on us. Laugh at them, and shake the dust off your feet.
 
Lame..

The US has more say over Europe than Europe has say over the US.. Calm down so I can make this clear..

You aren't going to tell me to keep my nose out of Euro politics period, especially while plenty of your libby Euro noses are in my countries politics..


So.. You softie leftist better buck up quick and find some real men to form a decent military with, which I figure you will struggle with..

OR.. Give me my money, for providing for the security or your families for you if you yourselves are incapable..

You are so naive. The chances of Europe paying for whatever debt you think they owe us are about as good as the chances of Mexico actually paying for a wall built on our southern border :lamo
 
Lame..

The US has more say over Europe than Europe has say over the US.. Calm down so I can make this clear..

You aren't going to tell me to keep my nose out of Euro politics period, especially while plenty of your libby Euro noses are in my countries politics..


So.. You softie leftist better buck up quick and find some real men to form a decent military with, which I figure you will struggle with..

OR.. Give me my money, for providing for the security or your families for you if you yourselves are incapable..

You are so naive. The chances of Europe paying for whatever debt you think they owe us are about as good as the chances of Mexico actually paying for a wall built on our southern border :lamo

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b3dd98-0193-11e6-9203-7b8670959b88_story.html

5% of US troops stationed in Europe and only a hundred or so nukes.

Without naval ports, air force bases, hospitals and command centers in Italy, Spain, Germany and Turkey, U.S. military operations in the Middle East, South Asia, the Mediterranean, Africa and the Arctic would be nearly impossible. In recent years, for example, 95 percent of people and materiel delivered to U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan crossed through Europe.

Shouldn't we be charging you rent for your staging posts?
 
If you weren't claiming European nations owe the US a debt then I was wrong.

I essentially claimed that european nations owing us some sort of debt is preposterous, and that if we were to claim they did for some stupid reason, they wouldnt pay it anyways.
 
This would cause a European Civil War (a political one, not necessarily militarily), as the continent would become divided between NATO and Europe nations. Obviously the debate would drive a wedge in European Unity, as the issue of redundancy would inevitably cascade to the forefront, and as countries lined up to fall on either the "NATO is obsolete!" side, or the "EU is obsolete" side, you would have two blocs arguing that the opponents' preferred faction is the one that is the "correct" one to be replaced.

Logically speaking, with NATO - there is zero legit reason for an "EU Army"...
I don't see why the proposed European army is necessarily contrary to NATO. Why couldn't this European army be a power within NATO, making the NATO alliance even stronger?
 
I don't see why the proposed European army is necessarily contrary to NATO. Why couldn't this European army be a power within NATO, making the NATO alliance even stronger?

We already have EU battlegroups. Look up 'Nordic Battlegroup' and 'Multinational Land Force (MLF)'...
 
We already have EU battlegroups. Look up 'Nordic Battlegroup' and 'Multinational Land Force (MLF)'...
I remember when they were started. Back just after 9/11 as I recall.

I presume that this new EU Army proposal will involve something more than the existing battlegroups, or else it would not be touted as a "new" proposal.

I like this new proposal for the same reason why I liked (and still like) the EU battlegroups. The US may not always agree with the Europeans, but they are fellow civilized democracies. Any time the world faces a truly dire threat, we will be able to count on them being on our side. Therefore in my view, the stronger Europe is, the better off we all are.
 
I remember when they were started. Back just after 9/11 as I recall.

I presume that this new EU Army proposal will involve something more than the existing battlegroups, or else it would not be touted as a "new" proposal.

I like this new proposal for the same reason why I liked (and still like) the EU battlegroups. The US may not always agree with the Europeans, but they are fellow civilized democracies. Any time the world faces a truly dire threat, we will be able to count on them being on our side. Therefore in my view, the stronger Europe is, the better off we all are.

That would essentially simply be a Battlegroup Oversight Department (BOD). :shrug:
 
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