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France Closes 4 Mosques for Promoting 'Radical Ideology'

Social identities. Human beings have an inherent tendency to form coalitions/groups/identities and to discriminate across them. This is true for all causes of identities, including those resulting from simple coin tosses in social experiments. The concept was pioneered by Henri Tajfel and is prevalent in modern social sciences.

From the inevitable existence of those identities derive the inevitable consequences: outgroup perception, ingroup favoritism, group polarization, outgroup derogation, self-segregation, ... As a result emerge beliefs (grounded or not) of injustice, vulnerability, distrust, superiority and helplessness (see Eidelson & Eidelson).

Simplistically, conflicts occur when one of those feelings become too prevalent and the net cost of conflict decreases.


Regarding the Muslim world, the rise of the Muslim identity results from the relative failure of the national identities. Historically there were tribe identities or imperial identities more often than national ones. People in those countries were disunited, distrusting each other, fragmented, and this made ordinary life unbearable and full of resent and suspicions against everyone (the beliefs mentioned before). Islam was the answer: the only identity able to solder them all and restore the social mesh. And of course religion naturally conditions the outgroup perception to religious considerations, resulting in an increased hostility towards those who do not share the same beliefs, or who violate the religious prescriptions.

Nazism and fascism were born in similar conditions: Germany and Italy were recent and immature nations, fragmented between different identities, in the turmoil of economic crises. Totalitarian ideologies that reformed the social mesh and restored relationships under a common identity have allowed to solder people. They organized movie projections, offered activities for the youth, ...


And what we have today in the West? A multiethnicity and multiculturalism that offer many daily opportunities to create beliefs of injustice, helplessness, vulnerability, superiority and distrust (France is becoming a very defiant country, moving from first-world levels to third-world ones). A weakening national identity that is deliberately undermined to attempt to artificially fabricate an European identity. Because politicians after the ww2 have concluded that the problem was nations and that by destroying them they would destroy social identities conflicts, which is a pathetic and dramatic ignorance of human nature, as later explicated by social sciences.

How does this current situation look to you? In my eyes, this is a recipe for disaster, a belief that human nature can be ignored, that leaves us with a tragic situation. The far-right is not the cause, it is the consequence. It is the main danger but also the only possible source of remedy. Tragic.

Interesting comment ...
 
Neither Israel nor Israelis have any right whatsoever to even step foot into the West Bank. Thus, their presence there at present is illegal.

But, who is going to enforce a UN decision more than six decades old? But, that inaction, still leaves an entire people both "stateless and homeless". (Israel giving back the Gaza Strip was nothing. It is entirely barren land.)

And, of course, Palestinian hot-head are not making any compromise possible, so the people continue to suffer ...
a) The entire legal perspective is fallacious in my opinion. Territorial affairs have always been a matter of force, and what we call international law is simply the paperwork forged a posteriori to legitimate the new situation. Even outside of territorial questions, what we call "international law" is actually a set of gentlemen's commitments to cooperate together. There is no international law because there is no international authority, and this is an excellent thing; universalism is a remnant from the past, when Europe was still convinced that it would make the whole world European.

Now, morally speaking, Israel was of course founded on a sin. But this sin was committed by the ancestors of those who live there and it cannot, even remotely, form the basis of a modern consensus or be called justice. Crimes cannot be indefinitely prosecuted, possibly centuries later, and extended to descendants. If we venture this way, then the whole world has recriminations against their neighbors.


b) It is not that Palestinians are hot-headed: the whole Arab world entrapped itself in something they can no longer extirpate from.

Consider that seventy years after the 1948 conflict, countries like Lebanon are still burdened with millions of descendants of Palestinian refugees who are prohibited to ask for the Lebanese nationality and forced to live in refugee camps! Not because the Liban does not want them, simply so that this conflict would never become a Israel victory and that someday it would be undone.

To serve this impossible justice, Arab countries have wasted the lives of tens of millions of Palestinians' descendants, prevented them to seek a real life, and educated in a vengeful mindset those kids whose neither parents nor great-parents were actually born in Palestine!

And after those generations of absurdity and fallacious promises, how could Arab countries finally acknowledge reality and tell those people it was all for nothing? They cannot, it would be admitting their own foolishness and that they condemned millions of innocents to an absurd mutilated life. To not face their criminal absurdity, Arab countries have to perpetuate their criminal absurdity.


Israel giving back the Gaza Strip was nothing. It is entirely barren land.
Not at all: it is the only coastal land of Palestine and it has a common border with Egypt. This is big deal! Actually I think the Israeli far-right are trying to reduce Palestine to the Gaza strip.

It is harsh and it is unfair. But it may also be for the best.
* Palestinians can move elsewhere, fifty kilometers away, while many Israeli have no other country to go.

* I do think this is the only stable peace in the long term. Because an easier peace that would create an insecure Israel at the mercy of Arabs would quickly lead to a new Shoah. So the only solution is to have a country with a Jewish demographic and enough distance between the borders of Israel and its urban centers. This does not seem compatible with a Palestine, for the most part.
 
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The West-bank "Palestine" is an entity formulated by the UN. From WikiP (here):

Neither Israel nor Israelis have any right whatsoever to even step foot into the West Bank. Thus, their presence there at present is illegal.

But, who is going to enforce a UN decision more than six decades old? But, that inaction, still leaves an entire people both "stateless and homeless". (Israel giving back the Gaza Strip was nothing. It is entirely barren land.)

And, of course, Palestinian hot-head are not making any compromise possible, so the people continue to suffer ...
All of this belongs into the I/P sub-forum of the ME forum.

Just as a heads-up (and a warning). :)
 
There is no international law because there is no international authority, and this is an excellent thing; universalism is a remnant from the past, when Europe was still convinced that it would make the whole world European..

There I would differ with you.

There is an International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, and it was formed by an international treaty (see here):
All 193 UN member states are parties to the Statute by virtue of their ratification of the UN Charter. Under Article 93 of the UN Charter, states which are not a member of the UN may become a party to the Statute, subject to the recommendation of the UNSC and approval of the UNGA. As of 2015, neither of the UN observer states, the State of Palestine and the Vatican City, nor any other state are parties to the statute under these provisions.

There is jurisdiction, but what may be missing is that some countries refuse to recognize that jurisdiction. For instance, the US saying that since Palestine is not a signatory, (and just an "observer)" then no grievance from Palestine can be heard by the court.

Which is just a cop-out - especially when Netanyahu (Trump's new best friend) kills innocent Gaza civilians* by means of rocket-attacks aimed at their homes. Neither Israel nor the Gaza-faction (Hamas) have bothered to bring their differences up before the ICJ - surprise, surprise.

But both feel equally justified in provoking one another with attacks.

*2,104 Palestinian died, including 1,462 civilians, of whom 495 were children and 253 women, according to the UN.
 
Pray tell, how was I suppose to know that?

Seriously, 'cuz I am confused about the matter ...

Moderator's Warning:
Per the Rules:

Notes

- Specific additional rules are in effect in the *Breaking News* forums and in the Middle East forum. Please read the Sticky Rules located at the top of these two forums. All threads related to global warming and climate will be housed in the Environment & Climate Issues forum. All discussions specific to the Israel and Palestine conflict are to be housed in the Middle East forum. Violation of these placement rules incur penalties. The Rules above also pertain to DP Blogs. Be advised that the Basement Forum is a separate entity with its own rules and consequences.

Found here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/misc.php?do=vsarules

Please do not further discuss the I/P conflict in this thread.
 
There is jurisdiction, but what may be missing is that some countries refuse to recognize that jurisdiction.
But precisely how could a legal system be called a law when everyone is free to disobey it (just leave the treaty or do not enter it), and judges refuse to prosecute their buddies who incidentally happen to be the cops (USA, France, UK, etc), some of those cops officially reject this legal system and openly violate its laws?

Do you expect to see Georges W Bush or Kim Jong Un ever prosecuted?

The international law is a system through which winners can prosecute losers when they see fit. Which is fortunate for us because the law of war is only applicable when all parties honor it. It is unfit for asymmetric war where groups like ISIS take shelter in cities and civilian buildings.
 
I understand it's difficult, but you should educate yourself on Judaism before you start speaking lies as you just did. That particular belief is believed by those who are the most extreme Orthodox Jews, people who belong to the extreme right wing Hasidic group know as Chabad-Lubavitch. The extreme do not reflect the views of those of the general population. You have been corrected.

I know it's difficult, but you should stop evading/ignoring the facts, which I've presented on numerous occasions. And the facts are:

It matters not what the views of the general population are because of Israel's electoral system which favors the smaller more radical parties. Any honest Israeli will admit that.

Chabad-Lubavitch is not the fringe sect you imply: The Jewish Virtual Library states, "The Lubavitch movement ... has become a world-wide Jewish outreach movement. More than 3,700 emissary couples work in more than 100 countries worldwide. Since 1995, more than 400 shlichim (emissaries) were assigned to new posts and more than 500 new Chabad institution have been established, bringing the total to nearly 2,600 institutions (seminaries, day camps, schools, etc) worldwide. According to headquarters, almost one million children participates in Chabad activities worldwide in 1999."

Lubavitch and Chabad | Jewish Virtual Library

In 1995, this sect's leader, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the "Lubavitcher Rebbe", became the first religious leader ever to be awarded the United States Congressional Gold Medal.

"Shortly after his death, Schneerson was posthumously awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, honoring Schneerson for his "outstanding and enduring contributions toward world education, morality, and acts of charity".[21] President Bill Clinton spoke these words at the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony:

“The late Rebbe's eminence as a moral leader for our country was recognized by every president since Richard Nixon. For over two decades, the Rabbi's movement now has some 2000 institutions; educational, social, medical, all across the globe. We (the United States Government) recognize the profound role that Rabbi Schneerson had in the expansion of those institutions.”

"In 2009, the National Museum of American Jewish History selected Schneerson as one of eighteen American Jews to be included in their "Only in America" Hall of Fame.[182]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson

And:

"Fundamentalist rabbis have approved murder, attacks on Arabs and their property, the illegal takeover of land, racist segregation between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi female pupils, and have ignored (at least ) the murder of a prime minister... What is new is that these are no longer "hilltop rabbis," "wild weeds" or "fence hoppers" who are turning their backs on the instructions of great rabbinical figures and the law. They and their supporters are transforming zealous fundamentalism and the shameful "The King's Torah "into the mainstream...

"But these fundamentalists, responsible for the training of tens of thousands of yeshiva students who become soldiers, wash their hands when their followers and students carry out the rabbis' orders. No rabbi has been tried for an illegal act by a civilian or soldier because of his teachings... states like Saudi Arabia or Egypt... arrest and imprison, exile or silence in different ways the preachers who raised generations of murderous zealots. Turkey removes from the military anyone who expresses excessive religious fervor... In Israel, on the other hand... The following was said about the Israel Defense Forces' ethics code: "When there is a conflict between orders based on the ethics code and a halakhic instruction, of course one must follow halakha" - Jewish law."

Fundamentalism into the mainstream - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com


And:

"Israel is already a semi-theocracy. The Israelis who were frightened by (Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman's) remarks and who love viewing their country as liberal, Western and secular are forgetting that our life here is more religious, traditional and halakhic than we are prepared to admit ...there is no other country in the Western world where religion has its holy iron grip on the state as it does in Israel."

Gideon Levy / Let's face the facts, Israel is a semi-theocracy - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com
 
I know it's difficult, but you should stop evading/ignoring the facts, which I've presented on numerous occasions. And the facts are:

It matters not what the views of the general population are because of Israel's electoral system which favors the smaller more radical parties. Any honest Israeli will admit that.

Chabad-Lubavitch is not the fringe sect you imply: The Jewish Virtual Library states, "The Lubavitch movement ... has become a world-wide Jewish outreach movement. More than 3,700 emissary couples work in more than 100 countries worldwide. Since 1995, more than 400 shlichim (emissaries) were assigned to new posts and more than 500 new Chabad institution have been established, bringing the total to nearly 2,600 institutions (seminaries, day camps, schools, etc) worldwide. According to headquarters, almost one million children participates in Chabad activities worldwide in 1999."

Lubavitch and Chabad | Jewish Virtual Library

In 1995, this sect's leader, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the "Lubavitcher Rebbe", became the first religious leader ever to be awarded the United States Congressional Gold Medal.

"Shortly after his death, Schneerson was posthumously awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, honoring Schneerson for his "outstanding and enduring contributions toward world education, morality, and acts of charity".[21] President Bill Clinton spoke these words at the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony:

“The late Rebbe's eminence as a moral leader for our country was recognized by every president since Richard Nixon. For over two decades, the Rabbi's movement now has some 2000 institutions; educational, social, medical, all across the globe. We (the United States Government) recognize the profound role that Rabbi Schneerson had in the expansion of those institutions.”

"In 2009, the National Museum of American Jewish History selected Schneerson as one of eighteen American Jews to be included in their "Only in America" Hall of Fame.[182]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson

And:

"Fundamentalist rabbis have approved murder, attacks on Arabs and their property, the illegal takeover of land, racist segregation between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi female pupils, and have ignored (at least ) the murder of a prime minister... What is new is that these are no longer "hilltop rabbis," "wild weeds" or "fence hoppers" who are turning their backs on the instructions of great rabbinical figures and the law. They and their supporters are transforming zealous fundamentalism and the shameful "The King's Torah "into the mainstream...

"But these fundamentalists, responsible for the training of tens of thousands of yeshiva students who become soldiers, wash their hands when their followers and students carry out the rabbis' orders. No rabbi has been tried for an illegal act by a civilian or soldier because of his teachings... states like Saudi Arabia or Egypt... arrest and imprison, exile or silence in different ways the preachers who raised generations of murderous zealots. Turkey removes from the military anyone who expresses excessive religious fervor... In Israel, on the other hand... The following was said about the Israel Defense Forces' ethics code: "When there is a conflict between orders based on the ethics code and a halakhic instruction, of course one must follow halakha" - Jewish law."

Fundamentalism into the mainstream - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com


And:

"Israel is already a semi-theocracy. The Israelis who were frightened by (Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman's) remarks and who love viewing their country as liberal, Western and secular are forgetting that our life here is more religious, traditional and halakhic than we are prepared to admit ...there is no other country in the Western world where religion has its holy iron grip on the state as it does in Israel."

Gideon Levy / Let's face the facts, Israel is a semi-theocracy - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com

So, you are still uneducated on this matter. There is nothing here that refutes what I said. The Chad-Lubavich movement is an extremist MINORITY group of Judaism. None of the things that you claimed in the post that I originally quoted are believed by those outside that minority group. NONE. You have consistently shown an ignorance on Judaism and a conspiracy-theory like anti-semitism. The post I quoted was no exception.
 
So, you are still uneducated on this matter. There is nothing here that refutes what I said. The Chad-Lubavich movement is an extremist MINORITY group of Judaism. None of the things that you claimed in the post that I originally quoted are believed by those outside that minority group. NONE. You have consistently shown an ignorance on Judaism and a conspiracy-theory like anti-semitism. The post I quoted was no exception.

Nope, you need to educate yourself. You could start by reading some Norman Zucker:

"One of the major successes of theopolitics has been the institutionalization of the Orthodox rabbinate within the state. The Orthodox rabbinate in Israel has been established as a monopoly - neither Reform nor Conservative rabbinic ordinations are recognized - and it is, in part, supported by the state. This monopoly and state support, in conjunction with the coercive tactics of the religious parties in the Knesset, has given the Orthodox rabbinate a good deal of power. It uses this power to further the observance of Orthodox norms, often violating the civil rights of the nonobservant Israeli ... Orthodox Judaism has become firmly established in Israel's armed forces. "

Norman L. Zucker, The Coming Crisis in Israel: Private Faith and Public Policy

So these fundamentalist and ultra-orthodox groups, Chabad-Lubavitch being the main one, have a great deal of influence on the Israeli government, especially the Likud governments. Overall the religious parties represent about 25% of the Israeli electorate, a percentage which will only increase due to the high fertility of these groups - 10-15 children per woman, and with the state of Israeli politics and the increasing numbers of these religious groups it is unlikely that future governments can be formed without their participation.

And it is this, a simple matter of demographics, which really destroys your argument:

"Ultra-orthodox British and American Jews are set to outnumber their more secular counterparts by the second half of this century according to research by a University of Manchester academic. Historian Dr. Yaakov Wise says the increase in religious British Jewry - recognisable by their traditional dress - is now outstripping the decline in the overall Jewish population which has been shrinking by one to two per cent each year since the 1950s. European ultra-orthodox Jewry is expanding more rapidly than at any time since before World War Two."

'Majority of Jews will be Ultra-Orthodox by 2050'

So there you have it. In just a few short decades the majority of Jews, in Israel and overseas, will be ultra-orthodox. IOW, the majority of Jews worldwide will then hold such racist and obnoxious views as described above.

Those are the facts and a far cry from "conspiracy-theory like anti-semitism."
 
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