EU should prepare for waves of returning Jhiadists.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

Mosul battle: EU 'should prepare for returning jihadists' - BBC News

Remember those lovely lads and lasses that left the UK and Europe to fight their holy war in Syria? Well they should be heading back our way in the next few months. Still want them to have their passports?

PeteEU · Oct 18, 2016

Most will be killed in the battle.

And are you for taking away citizenship of people who only have one?

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
Most will be killed in the battle.

And are you for taking away citizenship of people who only have one?

Passports seized upon entry and then imprisoned.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

Or alternatively have surrounding countries refuse entry to foreign fighters and then they will be trapped In Syria.

PeteEU · Oct 18, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Passports seized upon entry and then imprisoned.

Imprisoned for what exactly and based on what proof? Just trying to figure out the legalities in all this.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
Imprisoned for what exactly and based on what proof? Just trying to figure out the legalities in all this.

Imprisoned on terror charges Pete, you realise that aiding and fighting for terror groups is illegal in the EU Pete?

joG · Oct 18, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Mosul battle: EU 'should prepare for returning jihadists' - BBC News

Remember those lovely lads and lasses that left the UK and Europe to fight their holy war in Syria? Well they should be heading back our way in the next few months. Still want them to have their passports?

Sure. I don't think it is the government's business to mess in citizen's matters. That includes forbidding people moving freely.

PeteEU · Oct 18, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Imprisoned on terror charges Pete, you realise that aiding and fighting for terror groups is illegal in the EU Pete?

But did they commit terror in the UK or EU? Did they commit terror in an allied country? no. Hell can you even prove that they did commit terror against UK or EU citizens in Syria and Iraq? probably not.

Listen I hate these guys and I dont want them back, but I do not want to open Pandoras box so that the government can use similar rules/methods to target political opponents or other undesirables. And that is the problem.. the present legislation is a load of bull**** when it comes to this..say these people claim they were in Syria to fight Assad... our supposed enemy. Is it terror then or freedom fighting? Do we only punish those that joined ISIS or similar groups.. what about those that joined the Kurds or "friendly" rebel groups. They have ALL committed acts of terror.

What I want is the following.

Ban on travelling to conflict zones. Punishment is prison and loss of dual citizenship. This will make it illegal to go there, so people know this before they go. Right now, we are playing catch up with band-aid rules and laws that are put in place to fit a situation instead of the overall problem. It is poor legislation and very undemocratic frankly.

Lets put it this way. We know that it is illegal to speed. We know the consequences for doing so and getting caught. There is no such knowledge when it comes to going to Syria or Iraq.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

joG said:
Sure. I don't think it is the government's business to mess in citizen's matters. That includes forbidding people moving freely.

It becomes the government's issue when those citizens start dabbling in terrorism, genocide and become traitors of the State.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
But did they commit terror in the UK or EU? Did they commit terror in an allied country? no. Hell can you even prove that they did commit terror against UK or EU citizens in Syria and Iraq? probably not.

Listen I hate these guys and I dont want them back, but I do not want to open Pandoras box so that the government can use similar rules/methods to target political opponents or other undesirables. And that is the problem.. the present legislation is a load of bull**** when it comes to this..say these people claim they were in Syria to fight Assad... our supposed enemy. Is it terror then or freedom fighting? Do we only punish those that joined ISIS or similar groups.. what about those that joined the Kurds or "friendly" rebel groups. They have ALL committed acts of terror.

What I want is the following.

Ban on travelling to conflict zones. Punishment is prison and loss of dual citizenship. This will make it illegal to go there, so people know this before they go. Right now, we are playing catch up with band-aid rules and laws that are put in place to fit a situation instead of the overall problem. It is poor legislation and very undemocratic frankly.

Lets put it this way. We know that it is illegal to speed. We know the consequences for doing so and getting caught. There is no such knowledge when it comes to going to Syria or Iraq.

Then we rewrite the legislation to target these returning fighters. We did in the UK after 9/11 and we can do it again.

PeteEU · Oct 18, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Then we rewrite the legislation to target these returning fighters. We did in the UK after 9/11 and we can do it again.

So more crappy targeted (and most likely illegal btw) legislation to fix already crappy legislation? It is typical right wing reactionary crap. I want to punish these people, but I want to do it the right way.

But regardless, there was another article on the subject today.. cant find it at the moment, where an middle east expert said that few of these "people" will survive the Mosul attack and the collapse of ISIS, but of course it only takes 1 or 2 to do a lot of damage.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
So more crappy targeted (and most likely illegal btw) legislation to fix already crappy legislation? It is typical right wing reactionary crap. I want to punish these people, but I want to do it the right way.
But regardless, there was another article on the subject today.. cant find it at the moment, where an middle east expert said that few of these "people" will survive the Mosul attack and the collapse of ISIS, but of course it only takes 1 or 2 to do a lot of damage.

I'll take aggressive methods over the alternative which we saw last summer during the refugee crisis. Basically the left running around with their hands in the air doing nothing. We are dealing with battle hardened soldiers who have engaged in mass genocide, can't afford to wait and see.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 18, 2016

Higgins86 said:
Passports seized upon entry and then imprisoned.

We shouldn't even let them in. This has to be Europe wide, not just the countries with the balls to stand up.

PeteEU said:
So more crappy targeted (and most likely illegal btw) legislation to fix already crappy legislation? ~

Funny, when I advocated passport removal in another thread you argued we should use legislation, i.e. make travel to Syria illegal. Here you are arguing against the suggestion of legislation.

PeteEU · Oct 18, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Funny, when I advocated passport removal in another thread you argued we should use legislation, i.e. make travel to Syria illegal. Here you are arguing against the suggestion of legislation.

I am? I am arguing for good legislation, not against it. And the debate was not on passport removal, but on citizenship removal.

Higgins86 · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
I am? I am arguing for good legislation, not against it. And the debate was not on passport removal, but on citizenship removal.

I mean it's essentially the same thing if the EU bans entry for these individuals. Pretty much seize to be a citizen if your country won't even allow you entry.

gunner · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
I am? I am arguing for good legislation, not against it. And the debate was not on passport removal, but on citizenship removal.

personally, I'd remove all the niceties and have a bullet waiting for them.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
I am? I am arguing for good legislation, not against it. And the debate was not on passport removal, but on citizenship removal.

SO what makes "good legislation?"

And I am as much for passport removal as I am for citizenship removal but like I said, it can't just be some countries, has to be all.

And from this very thread -

PeteEU said:
~ And are you for taking away citizenship of people who only have one?

Damn straight I am.

gunner · Oct 18, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
SO what makes "good legislation?"

And I am as much for passport removal as I am for citizenship removal but like I said, it can't just be some countries, has to be all.

And from this very thread -

Damn straight I am.

The lengths that some of these posters go to protect these terrorist, is truly frightening.

Auvergnat · Oct 18, 2016

PeteEU said:
But did they commit terror in the UK or EU? Did they commit terror in an allied country? no. Hell can you even prove that they did commit terror against UK or EU citizens in Syria and Iraq? probably not.

In this case extra-territoriality is irrelevant because it still proves that you associate yourself with a terrorist organization. They will not be judged for the crimes perpetrated on foreign ground, but they will be judged for being allies on our territories of terrorist groups.

The real problem is rather the burden of proof. I do not advocate for dismissing this very important principle and imprisoning innocents on the basis that they may have gone to Syria and may have helped a terrorist organization.

PeteEU · Oct 19, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
SO what makes "good legislation?"

And I am as much for passport removal as I am for citizenship removal but like I said, it can't just be some countries, has to be all.

Yes it has to be all, but since the UK blocked revision of the rules, then that was dead on arrival..

Damn straight I am.

Would never hold up in the UK supreme court, let alone the EU court system. Hence my "good legislation" issue.

PeteEU · Oct 19, 2016

gunner said:
The lengths that some of these posters go to protect these terrorist, is truly frightening.

Has absolutely nothing to do with protecting terrorists.. it has to do with protecting other people from similar action in the future because the government sees them as undesirables. And dont tell me it wont happen.. This is the problem with poor selective legislation. More than often it be overturned once challenged in the court system.

joG · Oct 19, 2016

Higgins86 said:
It becomes the government's issue when those citizens start dabbling in terrorism, genocide and become traitors of the State.

Exactly. When a citizen fights against American citizens or property, she commits a crime. Going to Syria is not necessarily an attempt to do that. So, while I agree that attacking and killing persons visibly at war with us, our allies or our interests and is inaccessible to our law enforcement, I do not believe that learning how to build a bomb in the internet or visiting the terrorists to try to understand them is a legitimate crime.

Auvergnat · Oct 19, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
And I am as much for passport removal as I am for citizenship removal but like I said, it can't just be some countries, has to be all.

But other countries will have your citizens on their land and they will want to send them back to you. You will deny them this right and force them to keep your citizens because you declared they are no longer yours?

It's like leaving your child at school and tell teachers to deal with him because you no longer want it. Or throwing away your garbage on your neighbor's garden. It's despicable and will only cause you a crapton of diplomatic problems with no substantial gain.

You are leftist when you should be rightist, rightist when you should be leftist.

gunner · Oct 19, 2016

PeteEU said:
Has absolutely nothing to do with protecting terrorists.. it has to do with protecting other people from similar action in the future because the government sees them as undesirables. And dont tell me it wont happen.. This is the problem with poor selective legislation. More than often it be overturned once challenged in the court system.

Yea, some people hate that targeted legislation, that actually targets said groups, who are ultimately the actual perpetrators of said acts, has some effect.

PeteEU · Oct 19, 2016

gunner said:
Yea, some people hate that targeted legislation, that actually targets said groups, who are ultimately the actual perpetrators of said acts, has some effect.

yes like how a certain German targeted Jews for targeted legislation.. and no I am not comparing Jews to Terrorists... but the principle.