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Worst UK Prime Minister in last 100 years?

Infinite Chaos

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Margaret Thatcher has been named the worst Prime Minister of the last 100 years, closely beating fellow Conservative David Cameron in a new survey of leading historical writers. The Historical Writers’ Association (HWA) asked its members to give their views on the last 19 Prime Ministers, in a survey released to mark Theresa May’s 100th day in office on 22 October. Link.

Let me be clear I disagree Margaret Thatcher was the worst Prime Minister we had in the last 100 years; in my view, she was one of the best and she turned the country from a basket case heading for more economic gloom into a powerhouse and one which stopped being the sick man of Europe. I partially agree with Paddy Ashdown who also disagrees the poll - Thatcher did destroy what really needed to be destroyed but yes, she didn't rebuild where she took things down.

She should have rebuilt council stock she allowed to be sold vs allowing poor and council home owners to own their own homes.

She didn't push hard enough for regeneration of areas where steel and coal mining were to die off - however these areas were also heavily subsidised and performed badly

On the other hand, she liberalised the stock markets and allowed weak industries to die. She was with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul, instrumental in the freeing of the Eastern European Soviet Bloc countries and in the eventual downfall of the USSR. These outweigh the social and economic problems.

Second position - both David Cameron and Tony Blair have a lot more to answer for - Blair lied and took us into Iraq, we lost many good servicemen and became embroiled in the troubles of the middle east. Worse still he enabled Bush to create the mess in Iraq which still haunts us today with ISIS. Cameron, despite the regeneration of the economy to where it is now, did not do enough to spread wealth and then gambled with the economy when he set about the EU referendum

Neither of those two have anything in their positives folder anywhere near what Margaret Thatcher achieved.
 
Sounds like a objective and non-partisan survey ......:roll:
 
Let me be clear I disagree Margaret Thatcher was the worst Prime Minister we had in the last 100 years; in my view, she was one of the best and she turned the country from a basket case heading for more economic gloom into a powerhouse and one which stopped being the sick man of Europe. I partially agree with Paddy Ashdown who also disagrees the poll - Thatcher did destroy what really needed to be destroyed but yes, she didn't rebuild where she took things down.

She should have rebuilt council stock she allowed to be sold vs allowing poor and council home owners to own their own homes.

She didn't push hard enough for regeneration of areas where steel and coal mining were to die off - however these areas were also heavily subsidised and performed badly

On the other hand, she liberalised the stock markets and allowed weak industries to die. She was with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul, instrumental in the freeing of the Eastern European Soviet Bloc countries and in the eventual downfall of the USSR. These outweigh the social and economic problems.

Second position - both David Cameron and Tony Blair have a lot more to answer for - Blair lied and took us into Iraq, we lost many good servicemen and became embroiled in the troubles of the middle east. Worse still he enabled Bush to create the mess in Iraq which still haunts us today with ISIS. Cameron, despite the regeneration of the economy to where it is now, did not do enough to spread wealth and then gambled with the economy when he set about the EU referendum

Neither of those two have anything in their positives folder anywhere near what Margaret Thatcher achieved.

I think you are right in Thatcher's case except that her social decisions do not weigh against her. Blair does seems to have been overcomfident. But I do not think he jumped the wrong way in principle. The last PM was really less than optimal. But again, he was right about the structural deficiencies in the EU. But the workmanship was bad.
 
Sounds like a objective and non-partisan survey ......:roll:

I guess it depends on the priorities one weights the PMs with.
 
A lot of people my age will say Thatcher just because it's pop culture and they woukd of heard comedians etc slamming her. Most people don't know why they dislike her, they mutter something about the coalmines despite the fact they are from Essex.
 
Summary, where economics are concerned
~..................... she didn't rebuild where she took things down.

She should have rebuilt council stock she allowed to be sold vs allowing poor and council home owners to own their own homes.
to address

She didn't push hard enough for regeneration of areas where steel and coal mining were to die off - however these areas were also heavily subsidised and performed badly
her failure to push regeneration resulted in those areas then not performing at all, any more.

On the other hand, she liberalised the stock markets and allowed weak industries to die.
but, in the final outcome, not just the weak ones.

The fact that UK is devoid of any notable manufacturing industry today is rooted in her reign, the fact that financial markets have long since turned into casinos, as well.

Her sole responsibility? Doubtful!

I won't address her international political impact, yet the idea that she contributed towards the Soviet downfall I find amusing and almost "French". French in that France's nuclear ambitions were once described to me by a Russian counterpart as the likeness "of an enamoured ant crawling up an elephant's leg while promising to be gentle".:mrgreen:

On her infatuation with the Chilean dictator and her stance towards Mandela I'll be dismissive (others have been as bad, if not worse).

The one thing that has generated either the most love or the most hate for her, is her economic savvy or lack of it.

The only economists I'll take seriously are those who admit (either readily or grudgingly) that economics do not constitute a science. Certainly not a "hard" one but in all likelihood no science at all. There's nothing impartial about anyone holding the views of a particular school, come hell or high water, and there's no greater ideological partisanship to be seen than in "economics". Not even, I'd wager, in politics.

In this failing she was no exception.

Where her (often cited) statement of "all you need learn about economics is what you can acquire by living above a corner shop" was an intentional over-simplification, made (in equally intentional exaggeration) to drive home the KISS point, it nevertheless revealed a lot. Because all subsequent schooling never overrode this initial "wisdom".

You're losing out, get suppliers to lower their prices so you can still sell at the necessary profit. Rent is going up, you need to hike your sales prices. Failing to be able to do that, get your suppliers to lower theirs.

What you don't learn in a corner shop is production. It's costs, the management of same, how to sensibly arrange manufacturing to competitive levels, et.c etc. etc. Most of all you don't learn how to address bad management by replacing it with better management.

This item isn't worth the hassle? Throw it out. These unions are a royal pain (and boyohboy, weren't they just?), destroy them. This branch suffers from intolerably incompetent management, flog it!

In unperturbedly sticking to that dogma she was no worse than others of opposing stance sticking as unperturbedly to theirs. But, the worst part, also as incapable of recognizing developments that did not fit her world view and thus incapable of addressing those with any inspiration.

She saw what was and addressed it. Of what could come, possible would come and, where her position was concerned, should come she saw nothing.

The worst in a 100 years?

Bah! The only thing that raised her above the mediocrity of those that would follow was that she left no middle ground for verdict upon her. Hate her or love her, you can't sit on any fence here. THAT I'll give her and that's something I've missed ever since.

They don't make 'em like that any more.
 
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The only economists I'll take seriously are those who admit (either readily or grudgingly) that economics do not constitute a science. Certainly not a "hard" one but in all likelihood no science at all.
If you want to criticize economics, first learn economics. If you want to claim it is not a science, first consider a definition of "science", and you will realize that economics are obviously one. In my eyes you are an ignoramus resting on crass prejudices and criticizing academics a lot more respectable than you are, with a vastly more humble and industrious attitude towards knowledge than yours.

Economics are a science, mind you. Just because they are not able to systematically provide a firm and reliable answer does not remove anything to their scientific approach of an object as deep, changing and chaotic as economy is, undoubtedly worthy of being studied and understood. Economics are as much of a science as medicine is, although the human body is in my opinion, in all of its complexity, less complex than economy is.


And if you think that economics can be dismissed simply because they cannot reliably provide a simple and definitive prediction, ask yourself what you prefer: a few divergent voices who agree on most things and each provide sound arguments about a topic they obviously have a deep understanding of, or a bunch of clueless idiots spouting all sort of funky and ignorant theories? An imperfect knowledge is still vastly superior to ignorance.

Economics are very good at qualitatively explaining reality. They are also pretty good at measuring realty. They are however pretty bad at predictability, although it greatly varies from one topic to another. Maybe one day they will improve. Until then, they are still a lot more useful than your ignorance.
 
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~ her failure to push regeneration resulted in those areas then not performing at all, any more

Well, there have been PMs since who could have changed what she did, she left power in 1990 so the 25 years in between are a vast expanse of time for any who wished to redevelop could have. Same with housing stock, she did allow people on the lowest income the chance to own their own homes and in the 25 years since, failure to rebuild new is not just hers alone.

~ The fact that UK is devoid of any notable manufacturing industry today is rooted in her reign

You don't see any causes for failure in the creation and running of British Leyland which took a variety of manufacturers and then slowly crashed them into the ground over a period of 30 years? You don't see economic whirlwinds in the battles with unions all the way through the 70's?

~ the fact that financial markets have long since turned into casinos, as well.

"Casinos" which sustain around 8-9% of UK GDP.

~ On her infatuation with the Chilean dictator

Loyalty to someone who took an unpopular and dangerous stance in South America by supporting UK forces and offering advance radar warning of aircraft heading towards the UK taskforce.

~ and her stance towards Mandela

That I'll take however she also paved the way for independence in Zimbabwe, a huge stumbling block toward eventual freedom in South Africa. My feeling is her stance toward Mandela in particular was defined by the US continuing to keep him on the terrorist list and her friendship with Reagan who also could not accept that African freedom fighters could be battling for a good cause. You forget the almost eternal view of African Americans in the US as semi moronic imbeciles with low IQ.

~ They don't make 'em like that any more.

A shame.
 
I think that the Thatcher-lovers' inability to suggest anyone worse tells us all we need to know. Thatcher destroyed British primary and manufacturing industry in favour of tertiary service and financial service sectors, which are now threatened with heading south post-Brexit. She failed to reverse the liberalisation of British society, merely drip-fed the reactionary forces with headline-grabbing nonsense like Clause 28, and engineered silly FP adventures like the Falklands. She deregulated the banking sector, setting it on course for the repeated booms and busts that are now the normal situation for the British economy, and she instituted no reforms that have brought anything like economic, social or cultural stability.

Case closed.

I'm surprised none of her fan-boys have suggested alternative candidates such as Neville Chamberlain, Anthony Eden or even Jim Callaghan, but I guess making a case for a worse PM from the past century is pretty much impossible.
 
I think that the Thatcher-lovers' inability to suggest anyone worse tells us all we need to know. Thatcher destroyed British primary and manufacturing industry in favour of tertiary service and financial service sectors, which are now threatened with heading south post-Brexit. She failed to reverse the liberalisation of British society, merely drip-fed the reactionary forces with headline-grabbing nonsense like Clause 28, and engineered silly FP adventures like the Falklands. She deregulated the banking sector, setting it on course for the repeated booms and busts that are now the normal situation for the British economy, and she instituted no reforms that have brought anything like economic, social or cultural stability.

Case closed.

I'm surprised none of her fan-boys have suggested alternative candidates such as Neville Chamberlain, Anthony Eden or even Jim Callaghan, but I guess making a case for a worse PM from the past century is pretty much impossible.

Surprised you haven't mentioned Blair.
 
Surprised you haven't mentioned Blair.

He'd be about Number 4 on my list. Who'd be top of yours?

It's really quite funny that no one seems to have any suggestions, just a half-hearted defence of the sainted Margaret, the squaddies' darling.

It's as if IC created the thread just to warble on about Maggie... again! :2razz:
 
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Not my County and I'm not entirely familiar with all of the Policies of the Prime Ministers of the past 100 years but of those I am, I'm not a fan of either Thatcher of Blair.

Thatcher also supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa, and Blair, despite the largest political demonstration in Londons history, refused to listen to his people and the invasion of Iraq began just over a month later. It’s difficult to accept that such a united display of people power could have proven to be so ineffectual and was so easily disregarded and ignored. How anyone could still respect him after the Chilcot report release is beyond me.
 
Not my County and I'm not entirely familiar with all of the Policies of the Prime Ministers of the past 100 years but of those I am, I'm not a fan of either Thatcher of Blair.

Thatcher also supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa, and Blair, despite the largest political demonstration in Londons history, refused to listen to his people and the invasion of Iraq began just over a month later. It’s difficult to accept that such a united display of people power could have proven to be so ineffectual and was so easily disregarded and ignored. How anyone could still respect him after the Chilcot report release is beyond me.

They were both terrible people and horrible PMs. I think in foreign policy terms, Blair was considerably worse than Thatcher. In economic and social terms Thatcher was infinitely worse than Blair. Both deserve their dishonourable mentions on this list.
 
He'd be about Number 4 on my list. Who'd be top of yours?

It's really quite funny that no one seems to have any suggestions, just a half-hearted defence of the sainted Margaret, the squaddies' darling.

It's as if IC created the thread just to warble on about Maggie... again! :2razz:


I'm too young for Thatcher so I would probably say Cameron, no matter what side you are on its hard to argue that he hasn't fractured the country both socially and politically.
 
I'm too young for Thatcher so I would probably say Cameron, no matter what side you are on its hard to argue that he hasn't fractured the country both socially and politically.

I think it's more of an historical question than a question about PMs we remember. The question was about the worst PM in 100 years. I doubt anyone remembers MacDonald, Baldwin or Bonar Law.

I agree Cameron's likely to be treated harshly by history, but the worst?
 
I think that the Thatcher-lovers' inability to suggest anyone worse tells us all we need to know.

I was defending my good lady Thatcher rather than deflecting bile onto others. She is certainly not in my list of worst PMs. I think there are very few who would remember how horrible the country was under Jim Callaghan, Harold Wilson and Ted Heath let alone Neville Chamberlain.

You mention Anthony Eden but his only fault is not realising that the US would dress him down and impose her will and policy on anyone who she now realised she could.

~ It's as if IC created the thread just to warble on about Maggie... again!

I actually created it to show I could discuss failings in my own political party Andy. I also got bored of how easy it was to bash Corbyn, antisemitism and his horrible policies.

But I also love warbling, I consider myself a warbler of avian proportion.
 
I think it's more of an historical question than a question about PMs we remember. The question was about the worst PM in 100 years. I doubt anyone remembers MacDonald, Baldwin or Bonar Law.

I agree Cameron's likely to be treated harshly by history, but the worst?


I guess it will depend on how Brexit turns out.
 
Let me be clear I disagree Margaret Thatcher was the worst Prime Minister we had in the last 100 years; in my view, she was one of the best and she turned the country from a basket case heading for more economic gloom into a powerhouse and one which stopped being the sick man of Europe. I partially agree with Paddy Ashdown who also disagrees the poll - Thatcher did destroy what really needed to be destroyed but yes, she didn't rebuild where she took things down.

She should have rebuilt council stock she allowed to be sold vs allowing poor and council home owners to own their own homes.

She didn't push hard enough for regeneration of areas where steel and coal mining were to die off - however these areas were also heavily subsidised and performed badly

On the other hand, she liberalised the stock markets and allowed weak industries to die. She was with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul, instrumental in the freeing of the Eastern European Soviet Bloc countries and in the eventual downfall of the USSR. These outweigh the social and economic problems.

Second position - both David Cameron and Tony Blair have a lot more to answer for - Blair lied and took us into Iraq, we lost many good servicemen and became embroiled in the troubles of the middle east. Worse still he enabled Bush to create the mess in Iraq which still haunts us today with ISIS. Cameron, despite the regeneration of the economy to where it is now, did not do enough to spread wealth and then gambled with the economy when he set about the EU referendum

Neither of those two have anything in their positives folder anywhere near what Margaret Thatcher achieved.

I disagree. I think David Cameron is worse by a considerable margin, with Tony Blair not close behind.
 
i'm too young for thatcher so i would probably say cameron, no matter what side you are on its hard to argue that he hasn't fractured the country both socially and politically.

^^^this^^^
 
Well, there have been PMs since who could have changed what she did, she left power in 1990 so the 25 years in between are a vast expanse of time for any who wished to redevelop could have. Same with housing stock, she did allow people on the lowest income the chance to own their own homes and in the 25 years since, failure to rebuild new is not just hers alone.
Yes indeed. I was going to add that, the phone rang and bang went focus. But you're right, there's been plenty of time since her leaving for successors to make corrections and it would appear that nobody was sufficiently dissatisfied to make any such effort.
You don't see any causes for failure in the creation and running of British Leyland which took a variety of manufacturers and then slowly crashed them into the ground over a period of 30 years? You don't see economic whirlwinds in the battles with unions all the way through the 70's?
Not only do I see it now, I saw all of it at the time. I also saw (or assumed to) where the counter measures would lead in the long run and warned against the single minded approach. Turns out my assumptions were not that far off.

One needs to know that I was dealing with the markets of the world (and linked economies) from a German base at the time. Where that had me involved in plenty of dealings with the UK as well, even setting up a London office and running it for nearly a year until as suitable local could be found (a Brit who, unlike myself, breathed British first but was capable of viewing the bigger picture), the emotive brouhaha that reigned unbridled didn't get too my by then pretty much expat soul anymore. Outside looking in probably gave me advantages.
"Casinos" which sustain around 8-9% of UK GDP.
You call that kind of GDP base healthy? And I don't mean the percentages.
Loyalty to someone who took an unpopular and dangerous stance in South America by supporting UK forces and offering advance radar warning of aircraft heading towards the UK taskforce.
You mean "he may be a SoB, but he's our SoB"?

Well, I had Chilean friends at the time that I did my bit towards supporting, once they'd managed to flee. Many of them had equally Chilean friends that they never heard of again. Forgive me if I share into the "free the kelper" jingoism as little now as I did then. My desire for jingoism was by then heavily satiated on account of myself and others having been left in the lurch more than a decade prior, in a place far less conducive to personal health than Chile.

No saluting of flags, no singing of national anthems for me ever since. Not for some bloody islands in the Antarctic, not for any further bloody desert land, thank you very much.
That I'll take however she also paved the way for independence in Zimbabwe, a huge stumbling block toward eventual freedom in South Africa.
Mugabe, anyone?
My feeling is her stance toward Mandela in particular was defined by the US continuing to keep him on the terrorist list and her friendship with Reagan who also could not accept that African freedom fighters could be battling for a good cause. You forget the almost eternal view of African Americans in the US as semi moronic imbeciles with low IQ.
Revering Pinochet and at the same time reviling Mandela is a hard act to follow when the game of myopia is to be demonstrated. That sticks to her no matter what mitigation anyone tries to come up with.

Shows that Blair wasn't the first US poodle and while one could say very much the same of Churchill, he at least had motives and reasons that I can follow.
Yes, despite all that I have to criticize wrt her, she provided meat that teeth could be sunk into.

What we've had since (and not just in UK) is tasteless candy that nobody even wants to suck.
 
Can we call you Dr Chagos? :)
You can call me a-hole if you like :mrgreen:

I've never used the title in my name, even where I'd be authorized to.

Doctor is what I call my physician (when I don't call him a-hole, that is :lol:).
 
I'm too young for Thatcher so I would probably say Cameron, no matter what side you are on its hard to argue that he hasn't fractured the country both socially and politically.
Hell, I'm too young for Chamberlain and, what's more, neither have I been around for a hundred years yet, nor will I be likely to make that claim when I croak.

What I have seen in my time though leads to the assessment that what we get today is mediocrity incarnate. I wouldn't level that at Thatcher but at virtually everyone we've had since her. In any company that I ever ran they wouldn't even have made it to the first interview.

She would have (which says nothing about follow-up).
 
Ramsey McDonald, the architect of appeasement and unilateral disarmament.
 
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