Jeremy Corbyn: 'We'll win election as socialist party'

Andalublue said:

As Steel points out, the irony of the Labour RW attacking him for sowing disunity is especially gob-smacking. Frankly, until they get their own way and return a centrist, neo-con, Tory-lite to the leadership they will be attacking the leadership and doing everything to ensure that Labour loses. I'm not in favour of expulsions, but I'm not hopeful that any of Corbyn's internal opponents have any intention of fostering party unity.

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I've got to be honest, one of the statements that a lot of people are saying, is when you look into the audience of a Corbyn rally is where are the normal people :lol:

See that's it, if you don't appeal to the mainstream you don't have a hope in hell of gaining power.

They'll never shake the fact of friendship groups such as the IRA: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...rbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html

gunner said:

I've got to be honest, one of the statements that a lot of people are saying, is when you look into the audience of a Corbyn rally is where are the normal people :lol:

See that's it, if you don't appeal to the mainstream you don't have a hope in hell of gaining power.

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I know a lot of normal people and I've never heard that said. How normal are all these chattering people ?

Manc Skipper said:

I know a lot of normal people and I've never heard that said. How normal are all these chattering people ?

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The 77% of British people who align themselves with the centre ground.

gunner said:

The 77% of British people who align themselves with the centre ground.

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So everyone is centre ground apart from Corbynite Labour? UKIP? Centre-ground. Andrea Leadsom, IDS-style Tories? Centre ground. I think your centre of gravity has swung so far off to the right in recent months that you're losing touch with political reality, Paul.

Manc Skipper said:

Some of the diehard Labour RW, and the almost unanimous media, including the BBC have been rubbishing him since he won the leadership. Thousands of "ordinary people" have joined to make the Labour party bigger than it's ever been, and they voted twice now to keep him there. The idea that somehow they and he are deluded trotskyites is mental. The working people are taking the party back from the champagne Tory lite socialists. I was reading a comment earlier this week that this vilified demonised wrecker would be a middle of the road social Democrat in Scandinavia.

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Yep. People tend to learn the hard way that socialism and even its milder forms lead to misery and turn away from it. Then the experience fades in memory and a new generation falls prey to populist Pied Pipers march the merry band off again to make their own experiences with the shoddy economics of social progress.

joG said:

Yep. People tend to learn the hard way that socialism and even its milder forms lead to misery and turn away from it. Then the experience fades in memory and a new generation falls prey to populist Pied Pipers march the merry band off again to make their own experiences with the shoddy economics of social progress.

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I know, those horrid socialists that forced better working pay and conditions on unsuspecting people and raised living standards are like vermin. What did they ever do for us?

Corbyn and Labour party are not going to win the election in 2020, and the way they are going, I will be surprised if they manage to hold onto being an opposition party. Note that I firmly believe in need for strong opposition party, and at the moment Labour is not it.

I note the mention of socialism, and believe this one should interest:

Theresa May hires former Blair policy boss to review workers' rights

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...ny-blair-policy-boss-to-review-workers-rights

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We then have to consider the EU Referendum, which many Labour MP's want to ignore (not Corbyn). Despite the political posturing from number of pro EU MPs not to mention the legal actions initiated in an attempt to stop Brexit, it is not going to happen. A point a poster raised within another thread within this forum not that many hours ago. Brexit will happen, and this one may interest: Brexit: Theresa May to announce Britain will enshrine ALL Brussels law before UK leaves EU | Politics | News | Daily Express

As someone with a socialist lean I like a lot of the current policies being mooted but I have no faith that Corbyn can deliver a Labour majority to enable them to form a government and implement them. What with his rather dodgy past associations, lack of charisma, and the fact the the Tories, if he is around come election time, will be able ask him, "If 80% of your own MPs don't support you why should the public?"

I have little faith that Labour can find anyone to oppose him at the moment and if Owen Smith was the best the could do then Labour's in trouble for years. Smith wasn't their best, of course, he was just the first stage of dismantling Corbyn over the next three years.

Whatever happens, the PLP, with the failed coup and then the purge of new members, have shown themselves to be dishonest and not caring about party democracy so a plague on both their houses.

The only good thing I can see is that Corbyn has moved the Overton window of what is considered centrist politics and acceptable debate to the left quite a bit.

Baltim said:

As someone with a socialist lean I like a lot of the current policies being mooted but I have no faith that Corbyn can deliver a Labour majority to enable them to form a government and implement them. What with his rather dodgy past associations, lack of charisma, and the fact the the Tories, if he is around come election time, will be able ask him, "If 80% of your own MPs don't support you why should the public?"

I have little faith that Labour can find anyone to oppose him at the moment and if Owen Smith was the best the could do then Labour's in trouble for years. Smith wasn't their best, of course, he was just the first stage of dismantling Corbyn over the next three years.

Whatever happens, the PLP, with the failed coup and then the purge of new members, have shown themselves to be dishonest and not caring about party democracy so a plague on both their houses.

The only good thing I can see is that Corbyn has moved the Overton window of what is considered centrist politics and acceptable debate to the left quite a bit.

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Well-argued contribution, and good to see you back here, Baltim. I agree with you more or less entirely. I think it's a sad indictment of Labour politics from furthest left to hardest right that there's not a single inspiring leader with gravitas, a popular touch and a hint of charisma. I love Corbyn's agenda and the rehabilitation of socialism as a respectable democratic alternative, but if only there were a natural leader/motivator there to communicate that alternative to the wider electorate.

Andalublue said:

Well-argued contribution, and good to see you back here, Baltim. I agree with you more or less entirely. I think it's a sad indictment of Labour politics from furthest left to hardest right that there's not a single inspiring leader with gravitas, a popular touch and a hint of charisma. I love Corbyn's agenda and the rehabilitation of socialism as a respectable democratic alternative, but if only there were a natural leader/motivator there to communicate that alternative to the wider electorate.

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Thanks, It's been a while since I've been here.

I'm torn with regard to Corbyn. On the one hand I think the PLP has behaved terribly towards but on the other I feel that any leader who loses the confidence of 80% of his team should step down.

Thing is, the plan to oust him had obviously been hatched about five minutes after his first election so how genuine those resignations and votes of no confidence were is up for debate.

I can totally understand his desire to cling on though. He wants to return the party to its socialist roots but after the last year there is no way a true left winger will ever get the requisite number of MP's votes to even make it into any future leadership election as the party currently stands.

Several of the MP's who voted for him did so to give the Left a voice in the leadership debates, as a sop to party members, without ever believing they could ever gain any traction. They won't make that mistake again.

It truly is a battle for the soul of the party and Corbyn's recent re-election won't do anything to stop the infighting.

Andalublue said:

Well-argued contribution, and good to see you back here, Baltim. I agree with you more or less entirely. I think it's a sad indictment of Labour politics from furthest left to hardest right that there's not a single inspiring leader with gravitas, a popular touch and a hint of charisma. I love Corbyn's agenda and the rehabilitation of socialism as a respectable democratic alternative, but if only there were a natural leader/motivator there to communicate that alternative to the wider electorate.

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It is going to be a slow process to pick apart what the New Labour project did to the party and its membership. Using a sports analogy, the supporters generally go along with the management when the team is winning and tend not to notice how the heart of the club itself is being ripped out. When the wins stop coming and the supporters realise that the pursuit of results has left them with an organisation that has no soul or connection to them then it is a problem. If the management team doesn't change, then they need to start getting results quickly, they didn't and so, it is left to the supporters to take control.

Unfortunately, in the meantime it is going to mean a lot more pain and hurt for those who can bear it least and successive governments and media outlets telling them the answer is even more of the same failed laissez-faire fundamentalist capitalism. The British obsession with the property cartel is now starting to kill the living standards of our young who are staying at home with their parents waiting for them to die so that they can inherit a deposit to enter the cartel themselves.

Unfortunately, the choice within Labour is to have this self indulgent disarray for a period of time in order to, as a previous poster put it, rearrange the Overton window, or have a Labour Party that passively rubber stamps conservative policy and says a few nice things about social justice to assuage the guilt of knowing that they are only slowing down the rate of change. I know which one I'd rather have at this point in the political cycle.

Baltim said:

Thanks, It's been a while since I've been here.

I'm torn with regard to Corbyn. On the one hand I think the PLP has behaved terribly towards but on the other I feel that any leader who loses the confidence of 80% of his team should step down.

Thing is, the plan to oust him had obviously been hatched about five minutes after his first election so how genuine those resignations and votes of no confidence were is up for debate.

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Yes, this winds me up. They say he lost the confidence of 80% of his MPs. He never had it. The loss of confidence that took place last year was the party membership losing confidence in the PLP, hence Corbyn's landslide. I don't think the PLP have come to terms with their own failure.

It truly is a battle for the soul of the party and Corbyn's recent re-election won't do anything to stop the infighting.

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I agree with that.