Brexit: a very British coup.

Infinite Chaos · Sep 22, 2016

BBC iPlayer available 1 week

Some compelling and very revealing interviews, the words from the people inside the decisions and not TV pundits putting words in their mouths.

Shocking stuff - we knew Boris went into the campaign to further his political career and not for the win, we knew Aaron Banks and Farage were pushing hard with an email campaign within the Conservative Party for Leadsom to become the new leader once Cameron resigned but the oily Brexit campaigner who also made £200million on his bet the markets would crash in the case of a Brexit win was the worst example of the worst kind of politics behind the referendum.

Only a shame there weren't any inside cameras following similar shenanigans in the Labour party where the fallout was even bigger.

Andalublue · Sep 23, 2016

I watched it. No one came out of it well, especially that hedge fund carpet-bagger and the utterly disingenuous Jacob Rees-Mogg, tying himself in knots to justify his back-stabbing. I think many people assumed that Farage and Banks would do what they could to foist the hopeless ideologue Leadsom on the Tories, and the country.

Infinite Chaos · Sep 23, 2016

Andalublue said:
~ the utterly disingenuous Jacob Rees-Mogg ~

Have to say I totally agree. If Etonians could be banned from politics we might have a better and more honest class of politician.

Manc Skipper · Jun 30, 2018

It seems Mr Banks has more questions to answer across the pond. One could only wish the British authorities were so keen to uncover the Russian-assisted fraud driving Brexit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/...ron-banks.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimesworld

Infinite Chaos · Jul 1, 2018

Manc Skipper said:
It seems Mr Banks has more questions to answer across the pond. One could only wish the British authorities were so keen to uncover the Russian-assisted fraud driving Brexit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/...ron-banks.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimesworld

Solidifies for me that Brexit support is split in 3 camps / motives

Free-marketeers of the worst kind - Rees-Mogg / Banks / Odey etc prepared to bank and make money on UK losses.
Small businesses / owners who have little to do with the EU or are dealt harshly by EU rules like Dyson who stopped manufacturing in the UK and moved to Malaysia.
The vast majority worried about immigration or even fiercely anti any immigrants

Banks fits in the first category and most of the most rabid free-marketeers tended to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher and these guys have a natural ally in Putin or they think they have. What most of US have to remember is that people like Banks / Wilders / le Pen / Farage / Trump are all useful idiots for Putin

Putin is not simply the lead guy for white nationalism - he is actively pushing for the post-West era where western ideals and western style liberalism is a thing of the past. Sergei Lavrov has been pushing this for the last few years.

Lavrov 2017

RT feature on Lavrov interview for channel 4 this week.

Lavrov on Channel 4 this week. I watched this at the time, he's a really interesting guy.

Westphalian · Jul 1, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Solidifies for me that Brexit support is split in 3 camps / motives

Free-marketeers of the worst kind - Rees-Mogg / Banks / Odey etc prepared to bank and make money on UK losses.

Small businesses / owners who have little to do with the EU or are dealt harshly by EU rules like Dyson who stopped manufacturing in the UK and moved to Malaysia.

The vast majority worried about immigration or even fiercely anti any immigrants

Banks fits in the first category and most of the most rabid free-marketeers tended to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher and these guys have a natural ally in Putin or they think they have. What most of US have to remember is that people like Banks / Wilders / le Pen / Farage / Trump are all useful idiots for Putin

Putin is not simply the lead guy for white nationalism - he is actively pushing for the post-West era where western ideals and western style liberalism is a thing of the past. Sergei Lavrov has been pushing this for the last few years.

Lavrov 2017

RT feature on Lavrov interview for channel 4 this week.

Lavrov on Channel 4 this week. I watched this at the time, he's a really interesting guy.

Yes, Lavrov is immensely talented and hugely experienced. He knocks spots off all his western peers.

But he's not a one off. Russian foreign policy has for many decades been rooted in the Westphalian ideals of mutual respect for state sovereignty. Thus, Lavrov frequently criticises the West for destroying the state system it largely set up. The UN Charter is fundamentally Westphalian. It forbids military action against another member state (except in self defence) without UN Sec Co approval. The West has trampled upon that principle repeatedly over the last 30 years - most recently in Syria in 2018.

It is therefore with a comic irony that the West accuses Russia of wanting to destroy the world order. The West has done that itself - it only has a problem when other states take actions with which it does not approve.

As for Brexit - the UK voters made a decision they were not supposed to make. The political class thought they would easily win the argument, but they managed to lose it. That's what happens when your political class is a self serving and perpetuating elite, where electoral failure is rewarded with a life peerage to the Upper House.

Infinite Chaos · Jul 2, 2018

Westphalian said:
Yes, Lavrov is immensely talented and hugely experienced. He knocks spots off all his western peers.

Can't disagree with you there. Putin and Lavrov have been clear in their aims for the last 10 years and no Western leader including their sycophants have truly understood or tried to argue the case. Trump's response rather than stand up for Western ideals is to look to isolationism.

Westphalian said:
Thus, Lavrov frequently criticises the West for destroying the state system it largely set up. The UN Charter is fundamentally Westphalian. It forbids military action against another member state (except in self defence) without UN Sec Co approval. The West has trampled upon that principle repeatedly over the last 30 years - most recently in Syria in 2018.

It is therefore with a comic irony that the West accuses Russia of wanting to destroy the world order. The West has done that itself - it only has a problem when other states take actions with which it does not approve.

True, however some of Russia's actions around the world are similar. Russia is now a lesser world power (I don't mean nuclear) than China whose world aims are completely different and their methods to achieve this are equally different.

Westphalian said:
As for Brexit - the UK voters made a decision they were not supposed to make. The political class thought they would easily win the argument, but they managed to lose it. That's what happens when your political class is a self serving and perpetuating elite, where electoral failure is rewarded with a life peerage to the Upper House.

No, the core issue was mass immigration. This has been a huge issue badly handled on all sides of the political elite. The rules existed to deal with EU migrants without resources or in terms of impact on local services in the UK. Resentment built up which the political classes ignored or brushed under the carpet and the resulting vote happened.

german hick · Jul 2, 2018

Westphalian said:
The UN Charter is fundamentally Westphalian. It forbids military action against another member state (except in self defence) without UN Sec Co approval. The West has trampled upon that principle repeatedly over the last 30 years - most recently in Syria in 2018.

??? I´m Westphalian, but how the heck the UN Charter can be Westphalian too - don´t get that...

Or is there any other Westphalia on the planet?

Chagos · Jul 2, 2018

german hick said:
??? I´m Westphalian, but how the heck the UN Charter can be Westphalian too - don´t get that...

Or is there any other Westphalia on the planet?

The Westphalian principle, better said the Westphalian sovereignty it addresses, is that part of international law which states that each nation-state has exclusive sovereignty over its territory and that thus external powers should not interfere in another country's domestic affairs.

It's the basis of the UN Charter and takes its name from the Westphalian peace treaty (Westfälischer Friede) that in 1648 ended the thirty years war in (primarily but not exclusively) Germany.

More interesting in this totally partisan summons of the above (clearly not applied to matters Ukrainian or Syrian when Russia gets involved) would be (at least to me) whether the new address of Ulitska Optikov 4 in Petrograd holds advantages over the previous address in Savushinka Street.

I know that the new premises offer more room for expanding the staff of the troll factory there and that may explain why one gets to see more and more of their activity in more and more unlikely places, but by what I remember of Petrograd, Savushinka was sort of more "homely".

Infinite Chaos · Jul 3, 2018

Chagos said:
The Westphalian principle, better said the Westphalian sovereignty it addresses, is

Spoilsport. I had researched the principle but I was also enjoying German Hick's confusion. Sorry German Hick...

Chagos said:
whether the new address of Ulitska Optikov 4 in Petrograd holds advantages over the previous address in Savushinka Street.

I hear the views are better and the coffee is delivered faster. Apart from that, disservice as usual. :mrgreen:

german hick · Jul 3, 2018

Chagos said:
It's the basis of the UN Charter and takes its name from the Westphalian peace treaty (Westfälischer Friede) that in 1648 ended the thirty years war in (primarily but not exclusively) Germany.

Thank you for enlightening me. I already thought something like that - because Wetphalia wasn´t sovereign since duke Wittekind (Charles the great´s times AD 800) and the peace treaties are the only thing it´s been known in the world for. ;o)

for topic matters - I´m mostly a reader here, because I feel my backround on this is way to thin for comenting.

Sweden · Jul 3, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Solidifies for me that Brexit support is split in 3 camps / motives

Free-marketeers of the worst kind - Rees-Mogg / Banks / Odey etc prepared to bank and make money on UK losses.

Small businesses / owners who have little to do with the EU or are dealt harshly by EU rules like Dyson who stopped manufacturing in the UK and moved to Malaysia.

The vast majority worried about immigration or even fiercely anti any immigrants

Banks fits in the first category and most of the most rabid free-marketeers tended to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher and these guys have a natural ally in Putin or they think they have. What most of US have to remember is that people like Banks / Wilders / le Pen / Farage / Trump are all useful idiots for Putin

Putin is not simply the lead guy for white nationalism - he is actively pushing for the post-West era where western ideals and western style liberalism is a thing of the past. Sergei Lavrov has been pushing this for the last few years.

Lavrov 2017

RT feature on Lavrov interview for channel 4 this week.

Lavrov on Channel 4 this week. I watched this at the time, he's a really interesting guy.

No, you have left out the great majority. People like me who want to restore DEMOCRACY in the UK. You know, that quaint old fashioned idea that people should be able to elect politicians who take decisions and make the laws. As opposed to being ruled by a narrow elite of unelected free loaders whose loyalty is only to themselves .

I have watched the EU for 50 years, sometimes from close up. My loathing and detestation of this institution, foisted on the British and other peoples through lies and deception has grown with each passing decade and I rejoice that that the whole rotten structure is now in its death throws.

Sweden · Jul 3, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Have to say I totally agree. If Etonians could be banned from politics we might have a better and more honest class of politician.

What a childish remark.

For other readers : Jacob Rees Mogg is a man of scrupulous honesty and the highest integrity. He is highly intelligent and strikes fear into these Eurofanatics who dare to attempt to thwart the will of the British people.

Sweden · Jul 3, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
BBC iPlayer available 1 week

Some compelling and very revealing interviews, the words from the people inside the decisions and not TV pundits putting words in their mouths.

Shocking stuff - we knew Boris went into the campaign to further his political career and not for the win, we knew Aaron Banks and Farage were pushing hard with an email campaign within the Conservative Party for Leadsom to become the new leader once Cameron resigned but the oily Brexit campaigner who also made £200million on his bet the markets would crash in the case of a Brexit win was the worst example of the worst kind of politics behind the referendum.

Only a shame there weren't any inside cameras following similar shenanigans in the Labour party where the fallout was even bigger.

Just more Remoaner propaganda. They will stoop to anything in their doomed effort to keep the UK in the EU.

(Non-Brits should know that the BBC has been anti-Brexit before during and since the referendum and are not to be trusted).

german hick · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
(Non-Brits should know that the BBC has been anti-Brexit before during and since the referendum and are not to be trusted).

so everybody with another opinion than yours is not to be trusted? Very democratic...

Sweden · Jul 3, 2018

german hick said:
so everybody with another opinion than yours is not to be trusted? Very democratic...

Do not not wilfully misinterpret other's posts. Such behaviour is in very poor taste.

german hick · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
Do not not wilfully misinterpret other's posts. Such behaviour is in very poor taste.

sorry, did not do that on purpose - can you tell me what I got wrong? "They are not to be trusted because they are anti - Brexit"

does such an attitude leave any room for discussion?

may be my bad English, I´m sorry

Chagos · Jul 3, 2018

german hick said:
sorry, did not do that on purpose - can you tell me what I got wrong? "They are not to be trusted because they are anti - Brexit"

does such an attitude leave any room for discussion?

may be my bad English, I´m sorry

Nothing wrong with your English, your understanding of it and your use of it.

Nothing wrong with your application of logic either.

Seeing how the statement made clearly indicates that the BBC is anti-Brexit and thus not to be trusted, and seeing how the poster in question is on a rabid rant-spree against anyone doubting the prudence of Brexit, your original conclusion, even where formulated as a question, is without fault.

Poor taste does not lie with you but rather more with someone unable to follow logic and shifting blame away from him- or herself when that is revealed.

None of which addresses the totally unsubstantiated claim of the BBC being anti-Brexit and on account of that lack of substance, rightly so.

And to add to the confusion, BBC even gets accused of throttling stories that deal with criticism of the Brexit camp altogether.

Like not covering the recent anti-Brexit marches sufficiently, let alone completely suppressing the incident of Christopher Wylie’s appearance in front of the Commons culture committee with folders of evidence alleging Vote Leave’s overspend during the referendum.

Infinite Chaos · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
~ You know, that quaint old fashioned idea that people should be able to elect politicians who take decisions and make the laws ~

OK, so you don't know how EU directives and laws are produced. That's clear.

Sweden said:
What a childish remark.

For other readers : Jacob Rees Mogg is a man of scrupulous honesty and the highest integrity. ~

Um, I'm no Corbyn supporter but didn't Rees Mogg get caught out for lying about Corbyn's voting record on the Good Friday Agreement?

And how about this?

Sweden said:
Just more Remoaner propaganda.

OK, you shot the BBC, easy target - now shoot the message down...

Manc Skipper · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
Just more Remoaner propaganda. They will stoop to anything in their doomed effort to keep the UK in the EU.

(Non-Brits should know that the BBC has been anti-Brexit before during and since the referendum and are not to be trusted).

That is not true. The BBC has been onboard the brexit runaway train from the start, parroting the government line. It's politics section is almost entirely Conservative politically, and fervently anti Corbyn
The reality is that there is no version of brexit which leaves the average Brit better off, and crashing out without one of the deals on offer will take us out of the largst trading block in the world and cast us adtrift on Trumpy seas.

Sweden · Jul 3, 2018

german hick said:
sorry, did not do that on purpose - can you tell me what I got wrong? "They are not to be trusted because they are anti - Brexit"

does such an attitude leave any room for discussion?

may be my bad English, I´m sorry

No the BBC is not to be trusted because in constant betrays its duty to be impartial - on everything from Brexit to 'climate change. The public broadcaster, funded by a polltax, leans to the left, an has done for very many years.

german hick · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
No the BBC is not to be trusted because in constant betrays its duty to be impartial - on everything from Brexit to 'climate change. The public broadcaster, funded by a polltax, leans to the left, an has done for very many years.

that may be or not may be - most papers have a leaning. But may be they are right? Wouldn´t it be smarter to convince with arguments but with "I don´t play with you if you´re not my opinion"? Unless they don´t lie...

I have no interest in discussions where everybody claps my shoulder and says "you´re right, buddy" - that´s not only boring, but does not help me on my challenge trying to get an objective opinion.

e.g. I wouldn´t have a Problem with vox if they would´nt steadily, proovable lie - than it would be a leaning (not mine

)and not the trial to pull me over the table with dupery

Manc Skipper · Jul 3, 2018

Sweden said:
What a childish remark.

For other readers : Jacob Rees Mogg is a man of scrupulous honesty and the highest integrity. He is highly intelligent and strikes fear into these Eurofanatics who dare to attempt to thwart the will of the British people.

He's an elite scumbag who short-sold Britain before and will do so again. Like many of the Brextremists He's moved his business base to Ireland, so He can remain in Europe while the hoi-polloi get their blue passports. And poverty.

Westphalian · Jul 4, 2018

Manc Skipper said:
He's an elite scumbag who short-sold Britain before and will do so again. Like many of the Brextremists He's moved his business base to Ireland, so He can remain in Europe while the hoi-polloi get their blue passports. And poverty.

As a matter of fact, since most of the Lords support Remain, it's far more of a truism to say that most of the elite support the status quo.

Who can blame them for that - by definition they've done very well out of it. They don't want change. The real drivers of change are the dis-affected working class for whom the current system offers nothing but an endless supply of cheap foreign labour, and consequently no incentive for employers to invest in training and upskilling the least skilled.

No wonder most of big business also supports the EU.

Godric1970 · Jul 4, 2018

Sweden said:
No the BBC is not to be trusted because in constant betrays its duty to be impartial - on everything from Brexit to 'climate change. The public broadcaster, funded by a polltax, leans to the left, an has done for very many years.

the BBC has a massive credibility problem in Scotland after the last Indyref .... both the BBC and the UK establishment know they are living on borrowed time when the brexit negotiations are finalised Indyref2 will be launched no vows of more power etc will work this time

Brexit: a very British coup.

Infinite Chaos

Andalublue

Hello again!

Infinite Chaos

Manc Skipper

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Infinite Chaos

Westphalian

Infinite Chaos

german hick

Chagos

Infinite Chaos

german hick

Sweden

Sweden

Sweden

german hick

Sweden

german hick

Chagos

Infinite Chaos

Manc Skipper

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Sweden

german hick

Manc Skipper

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Westphalian

Godric1970

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