Germany-Migrants are Vacationing to the Same Countries they Fled [W: 76]

Lafayette said:

Pure exaggeration.

They aren't a numerous as you think. In fact, the French government puts the total number of French jihadists with ISIS at 960, one third of which are women ...



What the hell do you think they do? Walk around with "ISIS" written on their backs ... ?
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Is that why the Paris terrorists were hidden in Muslim neighborhoods?

Lafayette said:

Many? How many? The Daily Mail, as usual, is making a mountain out of a mole-hill, being one the more prevalent "rags" of the British press with hysterical reporting.

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Who knows the actual number, I don't expect Merkel to authorize an investigation, considering that she already has completely obliterated her legacy with the migrant crisis, and likely set her political party up for failure in future elections.

In fact, the challenge in Germany, and in Europe generally, can be resumed in this Economist info-graphic titled "Who will fill the jobs?"

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Do you think that migrants from the Mideast and Africa are going to make suitable replacements for German workers??
Which rock have you been living under?

The migrants are a God-send to Europe. It is by means of their massive assimilation (and entry into the work-force) that Europe will be able to "see the light at the end of the economic tunnel"!

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Totally unproven nonsense. 970,000 "God-sent" migrants are currently living on welfare benefits in Germany, because they lack the necessary skills needed for even performing basic unskilled labor. These people will likely live in poverty, and create offspring who live in poverty.

So, to hell with the "scare-rumours" being peddled by the bigoted Rabid Right. The True Course is to assimilate these workers and obtain the economic benefit that they promise.

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Pie in the sky fantasies are so enticing, unfortunately I am a realist, and cannot fathom your Pollyanna visions of migrants creating prosperity in Europe.

Let's all remember the Golden Rule. Pensions are not a gift of heaven - they are a government "gift" to the elderly paid out of Tax Revenues, and without economic-turnover, tax-revenues levels ultimately are lesser.

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Subtract $22,000,000,000 from Germany's budget this year. That it's the estimated sum that German taxpayers will pay to feed, house, and care for their migrants. The $22bn per year sum it's expected to continue for the next several years, and will likely increase.

When do these migrants start benefitting Germany? Is there a timeframe for your ideas of migrants creating great wealth in Europe?

And England, that did not want the migrants, so they decided to go Brexit, will feel the pain of reduced tax-revenues and that same phenomenon of reduced total taxable-revenues. Truly, the Brits have made the wrong choice and at the wrong time.

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I'd obviously disagree; if migrants had brought forth the rosy wonderland you've entailed here, the UK wouldn't have chosen to leave the EU. Instead, London is facing catastrophic housing shortages where elderly English pensioners are being driven from their lifelong homes, all the while that Islamic communities are swallowing up entire neighborhoods that were once English.

You should pay more attention to Brexit, as it demonstrates your ideas in action, and completely refutes them.

Refugees can afford a vacation? That's terrible!! They should be suffering in sweat-shops and living in tents! Who let them get $500 spare cash?!

Second-class citizenship must be enforced!!

Auvergnat said:

Lats time I checked the number was ten times higher. I guess you are actually only referring to those ready to perform terrorist actions.

And the number of severely retrograde assholes among Muslims is well above a million, with two or three more millions to help them spread this religion, mostly concentrated in Paris, the echo chamber of France.

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That's not my experience of Paris, nor of the French muslim community.

Can you please justify, with valid sources, your figure of "above a million" and the exact sociological definition of "severely retrograde assholes" with references, s'il vous plaît?

Urethra Franklin said:

Can you please justify, with valid sources, your figure of "above a million" and the exact sociological definition of "severely retrograde assholes" with references, s'il vous plaît?

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The document mentioned above, in one of my recent posts, states that 28% of the 3-4 millions of Muslims are what they called "ultras" (support for niqab and other markers), so you get your million of what I called "severely retrograde assholes". And this is a pro-Muslim study with pro-Muslim overstretched conclusions from the Institut Montaigne, without any control factor to account for the fact that people massively hide their controversial opinions. The real number of Muslims and assholes is therefore plausibly a lot higher (for the FN there used to be 2.5 times less interviewees admitting to vote FN than actual voters).

Here is another study, with a better methodology (they used Muslim interviewers as a control factor), that shows that half of second generation French Muslims are antisemites and homophobes. This Germano-European study initially intended to demonstrate that Muslims are poor victims (which made their research legal and eligible for funding) but their results demonstrated the exact opposite, that Muslims are massively intolerant. They held back the study for five years before releasing it. I am sure they made their public self-criticism since then and vowed to never ask questions that could lead to undesirable results in the future.

As for your own experience, maybe it is because you only experience Muslims in environments dominated by non-Muslims. Or maybe because you only frequent bourgeois Muslims who come from the most westernized families. I would like to provide you more data to show you how distorted your perception is, but we live in France where it is prohibited to collect data and to express criticisms towards Islam. Two years of jail each. Keep that in mind when you ask for evidences.

coldjoint said:

Is that why the Paris terrorists were hidden in Muslim neighborhoods?

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Where would you "hide" as a Muslim?

In Palm Springs (with no money) ... ?
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Auvergnat said:

The document mentioned above, in one of my recent posts, states that 28% of the 3-4 millions of Muslims are what they called "ultras" (support for niqab and other markers), so you get your million of what I called "severely retrograde assholes". And this is a pro-Muslim study with pro-Muslim overstretched conclusions from the Institut Montaigne, without any control factor to account for the fact that people massively hide their controversial opinions. The real number of Muslims and assholes is therefore plausibly a lot higher (for the FN there used to be 2.5 times less interviewees admitting to vote FN than actual voters).

Here is another study, with a better methodology (they used Muslim interviewers as a control factor), that shows that half of second generation French Muslims are antisemites and homophobes. This Germano-European study initially intended to demonstrate that Muslims are poor victims (which made their research legal and eligible for funding) but their results demonstrated the exact opposite, that Muslims are massively intolerant. They held back the study for five years before releasing it. I am sure they made their public self-criticism since then and vowed to never ask questions that could lead to undesirable results in the future.

As for your own experience, maybe it is because you only experience Muslims in environments dominated by non-Muslims. Or maybe because you only frequent bourgeois Muslims who come from the most westernized families. I would like to provide you more data to show you how distorted your perception is, but we live in France where it is prohibited to collect data and to express criticisms towards Islam. Two years of jail each. Keep that in mind when you ask for evidences.

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Interesting studies, thank you, and I don't deny the levels of homophobia and anti-semitism which exist, but also in the white French population too. Look at the kinds of vermin who were on the manif pour tous - Cathloics don't score so well homophobia either.

I'm also interested when you say "niqab and other markers" - I vehemently detest women covering themselves out of fear, family pressure or community expectation. But there are also muslim women who wear "other markers" such as the headscarf who are very liberal in their views. I don't like what their headscarves represent, but I don't jump to conclusions about them either.

I would like to see some qualitative, phenomenological social research done revealing the core processes operating withing these communities, rather than these rather simple, quantitative studies quoting a "25% said this" etc. which don't really reveal the bare bones of what's going on.

As for my own experience, I've years of working with underpriveliged communities and currently have work contact (general public and colleagues) with many muslims, essentially working class. I am the partner of a Senegalese man from a muslim background -my white, non-muslim, atheist, feminist being doesn't pose a problem, nor does our living out of wedlock.

truthatallcost said:

Who knows the actual number, I don't expect Merkel to authorize an investigation, considering that she already has completely obliterated her legacy with the migrant crisis, and likely set her political party up for failure in future elections..

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You obviously dived into this forum without reading what has come before.

I suggest you either read or re-read my previous post here where I explain why welcoming the migrants is an absolute must if Europe is to flourish economically in the future. That argument as described is solid, though it might be above your level.

Europe needs those migrants, unlike the US*, but people like you cannot see beyond their noses ...

*And, in fact, if the US doesn't need the migrants (according to the argument in that linked post), it is because they have been coming for quite some time massively, and they contribute to the economy positively. For which, the US has no real need for them beyond their present level of entry. But, shutting them out would be a really stoopid mistake.
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Lafayette said:

Where would you "hide" as a Muslim?

In Palm Springs (with no money) ... ?
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In plain sight. Your laws and ours make it very easy for them to plot our demise almost anywhere.

Urethra Franklin said:

Interesting studies, thank you, and I don't deny the levels of homophobia and anti-semitism which exist, but also in the white French population too. Look at the kinds of vermin who were on the manif pour tous - Cathloics don't score so well homophobia either.

I'm also interested when you say "niqab and other markers" - I vehemently detest women covering themselves out of fear, family pressure or community expectation. But there are also muslim women who wear "other markers" such as the headscarf who are very liberal in their views. I don't like what their headscarves represent, but I don't jump to conclusions about them either.

I would like to see some qualitative, phenomenological social research done revealing the core processes operating withing these communities, rather than these rather simple, quantitative studies quoting a "25% said this" etc. which don't really reveal the bare bones of what's going on.

As for my own experience, I've years of working with underpriveliged communities and currently have work contact (general public and colleagues) with many muslims, essentially working class. I am the partner of a Senegalese man from a muslim background -my white, non-muslim, atheist, feminist being doesn't pose a problem, nor does our living out of wedlock.

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Does he work?

Auvergnat said:

The document mentioned above, in one of my recent posts, states that 28% of the 3-4 millions of Muslims are what they called "ultras" (support for niqab and other markers)

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The studies that you site are authentic, but you are drawing the wrong conclusions.

To get to the right conclusions, we have to see the comparative differences between the Muslim religions and the Christian religions. The latter have formal training in the development of their preachers, the Muslims do not. In fact, the two main Muslim groups (Sunnites and Shiites) have been fighting one another since the 8th century.

Ottoman law gave equal rights to all Muslims, so there was far less of a conflict amongst the sects. This all came apart with the end of the Ottoman Empire, and the evolution of the countries (established as a consequence of the first World War and the demise of the Ottoman Empire) unleashed the historical hatred between the two sects. Which has continued until this day.

ISIS was founded in Iraq by disgruntled ex-officers of Saddam Hussein's army, and are mostly Sunnites. They re-instituted domination of the Sunnite Sect wherever they control people by conquest. They actually persecute both Kurds and Shiites under their domination.

The French have just agreed to tackle the problem of the distinction between the two sects by means of an agreement establishing a forma training program for imams such that the division between Sunnite and Shiite is not exaggerated as it is in the Middle-east today. And no imam will be allowed to preach "religious war" against the other sect - or they will loose their ability to preach.

This is an important advance in the assimilation of both Muslim sects in France, with the outcome hopefully to be like the Protestants and Catholics that also had internecine strife of the same nature three or four centuries ago - whereas both live peacefully together today. (Even Northern Ireland has come a long way to changing its habits regarding its religious differences.)

My point: Europe has had exactly the same religious strife as does Islam today. It will take time to heal ...
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Lafayette said:

Where would you "hide" as a Muslim?

In Palm Springs (with no money) ... ?
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Actually, in the case of the majority of the Paris attackers, in the borough that I originally grew up in. More conveniently so, as it's not in the country that I'm planning to attack.

In other words the attackers did not spring from cover in France nor were they using any Muslim neighbourhood in France (which seems to be what someone wants to imply here), they came across the border.

Urethra Franklin said:

Look at the kinds of vermin who were on the manif pour tous - Cathloics don't score so well homophobia either.

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Certainly. However this study and others made the comparison with other religious groups and emphasized a significant radicality for Muslims, far above every other group.

I'm also interested when you say "niqab and other markers" - I vehemently detest women covering themselves out of fear, family pressure or community expectation. But there are also muslim women who wear "other markers" such as the headscarf who are very liberal in their views. I don't like what their headscarves represent, but I don't jump to conclusions about them either.

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When I mentioned "other markers", I referred to other markers of radicalism, not other markers of Islam. The support for scarves was not considered as a radicality marker by those researchers.

But on a personal side, I do think that the generalization of the scarves will inevitably harm women's rights in France. French feminist movements will have to clash with Islam as a whole at some point or another. Right now I assume they will focus on scholarly interpretations (imam formation, etc) like politicians are doing, but at some point we will all have to admit that the core of the issue is the excessive prevalence of religion in most of Muslim communities. Combined with the inherent authoritarianism of Islam, its aborted modernization, and its reaction against westernization, the result is spontaneously very aggressive.

As for my own experience, I've years of working with underpriveliged communities and currently have work contact (general public and colleagues) with many muslims, essentially working class. I am the partner of a Senegalese man from a muslim background -my white, non-muslim, atheist, feminist being doesn't pose a problem, nor does our living out of wedlock.

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Senegalese Muslims are a category of their own, even more so than Western Africa, which is already distinct from what is found in Asia, Northern Africa or the Middle East.

For the start the majority of Senegalese Muslims are Sufis, a group that everywhere in the world very rarely exhibit negative religious traits. But even among Sunnis the beautiful Senegalese culture produced something very different from what is found in the Arab world. Even though Senegal is not immune to the radicalization wave of the recent decades and the global foreign movements, from the Muslim Brotherhood to Salafism.

Urethra Franklin said:

I would like to see some qualitative, phenomenological social research done revealing the core processes operating withing these communities, rather than these rather simple, quantitative studies quoting a "25% said this" etc. which don't really reveal the bare bones of what's going on.

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Unfortunately I have no definitive book to recommend about the French context. Gilles Képel, Michael Cook, Olivier Roy and Farhad Khosrokhavar are good readings but this field is full of disagreements, and for one I do not share many of their conclusions. The gist is the following though:

a) There is a worldwide rise of Islamism since the 80's. Resurrected in the former Ottoman empire, first in Egypt, it resulted from the failures of Arabs to give birth to proper nations. Without any proper identity, stuck between remnants of tribalism and failed nations, communities are reforming around another identity: Islam. Add a desire for a strong, trustable and efficient power, and revanchism. This quest for identity and community has parallels to what happened in Italy and Germany between the two world wars, and in many other places. People need a common identity, a tribe, they want problems to be fixed, and they want to reconquer their pride. Besides a community built around a religion can only fall victim of religious radicalism. Religion was not important a few decades ago in Muslim countries, now they are preys to fundamentalism.

b) French suburbs are both influenced by the worldwide Islamist wave, and victims of similar identity mechanics: for them being loyal to France means a betrayal towards their roots, ancestors and a submission to the former colonial power. They cannot be French, they cannot be Algerian, so what are they? The ghetto has been their tribe for a while but Islam is more and more taking over this role; religion has been on the rise in our suburbs since the 90's. Of course there is also racism, poverty, and integration problems, but they must no be overblown and every other immigrant group around the world faces the same hardships without the same consequences.

c) Arab cultures are a problem. High intolerance (against every group, religion, neighbor town, etc), strong defiance and tribalism ("communautarisme"), patriarchy and violence, etc. The hatred or defiance against French people especially is very high, although it is not always visible, both for cultural, historical and religious reasons (a Christian Evangelist will be a lot more respected than an atheist or agnostic, and France is/was very little religious).

d) One consequence of identity plays is that even moderate Muslims will defend Islamic radicalism, even when they are its first victims (women especially). They may dislike radicalism but they identify to them. And they like the community, its activities, the youth associations, the charity groups, the neighborhood's community life and solidarity born out of Islam and Islamic organizations. Once again parallels can be drawn with fascism and Nazism. Another consequence is that it moves Muslims farther from the national community, and creates a besieged mentality and group polarization. Assimilation is probably declining but no data exist to prove it.

Lafayette said:

My point: Europe has had exactly the same religious strife as does Islam today. It will take time to heal ...

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Your whole exposé, attributing radicalism to Sunni-Shia conflicts, demonstrates a complete lack of historical perspectives and does not make sense. Forget ISIS, they are an insignificant spout on a long and ample historical wave towards Islamic radicalism (see the above post). And for the third time, I do not give a damn about terrorism, which is a minor problem. *I* am talking about cultural influences.

Anyway I am not saying that Islam is the first religion to experience radicalism, nor that it will never solve its problems. But why, oh why, should I have to suffer their mess for centuries, until they finally come to their minds? Not my problem.

Besides, you gratuitously assume that the whole world is fated to follow the same path than we did, to lose religion and embrace our values. No, those are OUR values, OUR culture. They have different values, different cultures and they will probably always have. Therefore the cultural differences between Muslims and koufars will persist. We will forever remain two distinct ethnic groups, unless one of us assimilates the other one or exterminates it. So far you assumed that we would assimilate them, even though everything indicates it is not happening. If two groups are forced to cohabit, conflicts inevitably ensue, whose violence is function of their cultural gap.

Auvergnat said:

French feminist movements will have to clash with Islam as a whole at some point

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Yes and no. Remember the success of Ni Pute Ni Soumise? You do get these unlikely alliances like fundamentalist Christians and radical feminists united against pornography.
Through the many strong muslim women I know I do see hope, but as you say, it is sure gonna take some time.

Auvergnat said:

b) French suburbs are both influenced by the worldwide Islamist wave, and victims of similar identity mechanics: for them being loyal to France means a betrayal towards their roots, ancestors and a submission to the former colonial power. They cannot be French, they cannot be Algerian, so what are they? The ghetto has been their tribe for a while but Islam is more and more taking over this role; religion has been on the rise in our suburbs since the 90's. Of course there is also racism, poverty, and integration problems, but they must no be overblown and every other immigrant group around the world faces the same hardships without the same consequences.

c) Arab cultures are a problem. High intolerance (against every group, religion, neighbor town, etc), strong defiance and tribalism ("communautarisme"), patriarchy and violence, etc. The hatred or defiance against French people especially is very high, although it is not always visible, both for cultural, historical and religious reasons (a Christian Evangelist will be a lot more respected than an atheist or agnostic, and France is/was very little religious).

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I personally think French society is very sectorised in this sense.

Look to the health sector: low levels of discrimination, high levels of black and Arab workers, in senior positions too. The muslims you find here are well integrated, liberal, tolerant, etc etc.

Look to other sectors where you have a hard time even getting hired if you're called Mohammed. You might see a different picture.

Urethra Franklin said:

Yes and no. Remember the success of Ni Pute Ni Soumise? You do get these unlikely alliances like fundamentalist Christians and radical feminists united against pornography.

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They did ally with the right because the left treated them as a plague carriers.

The left-wing, once heralds of feminism and progressiveness, is now torn apart by its Muslim clientelism. The whole left is poisoned by its allegiance to Islam and they still do not know how to solve this contradiction. Meanwhile the right-wing wants to attract the Muslim electorate on the long-term while spitting on them right now. Even the far-right tries to attract a few! And finally Muslims have gave birth to a social-Islamic movement, half socialist (for welfare and immigration), half Islamist (for morale values), and they hope to be what the greens used to be.

We will see many strange alliances in the future: Progressives, Jews and gays voting far-right, feminists voting on the right, ... Between the rise of nationalism (on the left and the right), and the love-hate relationship of parties with Islam, I wonder what the future political landscape will looks like.

Through the many strong muslim women I know I do see hope, but as you say, it is sure gonna take some time.

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Like most French people you assume that eventually they will assimilate. What if it never happens?


For the start we both influence each other. They changed us. Mocking religion was once normal, now mocking religion is seen as severely offensive. We still officially adhere to laïcité but many schools, hospitals, enterprises and administration are already providing halal meals (more expensive), subsides for mosques are commonplace (disguised as cultural subsides), and our government is currently busy setting up additional funding sources, from a halal contribution to public corporations' donations (both mostly involving non-Muslims' money). Within fifteen years, hate speech laws will be used to punish blasphemy and the European Justice Court will likely sanction us for prohibiting veils in schools and maybe among civil agents. Every day we tolerate useless animal suffering in the name of a 7th century's prophet, and every Friday in several cities Muslims openly occupy the streets in front of their Mosques.

So we both influence each other. Will one of us still assimilate the other? Not necessarily, there is no such natural law. It occurred with other immigration sources but they followed very different trajectories and was already assimilated by this time.

And it could be that WE will eventually assimilate to their culture, just like we once assimilated ourselves to the Roman culture even though there were few Romans and they did rule few things. It is not just a matter of numbers, assimilation is led by perceived strength, cohesion, pride, etc. Many French people are ashamed of their culture and prefer to present themselves as "European citizens" or "citizens of the world", and spit on France and its economy as soon as possible. We equated the nation with hate and bellicism since the ww2, and we now do everything possible to replace our nation with... an European nation. Even though France is the socle of our identity, culture and democracy. But Muslims strongly claim their religious identity, their assabiyah is strong while ours is weak, and their communities are very busy. And when it comes to strength we now assimilate brown or dark skin with force and energy, and many envy their virile, patriarcal and violent cultures, and we commonly romanticize this, while ostracizing strength and power when they come from our culture.

Madness, madness everywhere.

Urethra Franklin said:

I personally think French society is very sectorised in this sense.

Look to the health sector: low levels of discrimination, high levels of black and Arab workers, in senior positions too. The muslims you find here are well integrated, liberal, tolerant, etc etc.

Look to other sectors where you have a hard time even getting hired if you're called Mohammed. You might see a different picture.

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This is an interesting remark. I am not familiar enough with the health sector but I suspect it is related to the fact that medicine is one of the few sectors for which we deliver working visas. While other immigrants come from familial immigration or French ghettos, physicians are usually straight products of foreign bourgeoisie. Even before the colonization, westernization was strong among Muslim bourgeoisies: elites openly attempted a political westernization of Muslim societies at this time.

Auvergnat said:

They did ally with the right because the left treated them as a plague carriers.

The left-wing, once heralds of feminism and progressiveness, is now torn apart by its Muslim clientelism. The whole left is poisoned by its allegiance to Islam and they still do not know how to solve this contradiction.

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I beleive you are wrong to say the whole left. I think the left is divided on this issue. The left has never been perfect on sexism - old fashioned macho syndalicalistes etc., but it remains streets ahead of the right.

Many on the left condemn the misogyny of traditional Islam. I speak as a very left wing woman with a muslim partner who is pro-Israel. I am not unique in that stance.

Auvergnat said:

Like most French people you assume that eventually they will assimilate. What if it never happens?

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Who's to say it shouldn't happen?

Btw, I've lived here for many years but I'm not French. Shouldn't jump to conclusions or rely on stereotypes, my aligot eating friend

Auvergnat said:

Mocking religion was once normal, now mocking religion is seen as severely offensive. We still officially adhere to laïcité but many schools, hospitals, enterprises and administration are already providing halal meals (more expensive), subsides for mosques are commonplace (disguised as cultural subsides), and our government is currently busy setting up additional funding sources, from a halal contribution to public corporations' donations (both mostly involving non-Muslims' money).

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Well, I come from a country where since the 1970s hospitals have routinely provided asian vegetarian (for hindus), halal and kosher options, and if the funding's there to do that I'm alright with it, provided it's not just one group that's singled out for special treatment. Sick people often need to be encouraged to eat and a sick Muslim or Jew isn't going to be enticed by a tartiflette. Some hospitals provide a "sans porc" option for staff which does the Muslims and Jews in one go. So long as pork isn't eliminated for everybody, I'm OK with that.

Auvergnat said:

This is an interesting remark. I am not familiar enough with the health sector but I suspect it is related to the fact that medicine is one of the few sectors for which we deliver working visas. While other immigrants come from familial immigration or French ghettos, physicians are usually straight products of foreign bourgeoisie. Even before the colonization, westernization was strong among Muslim bourgeoisies.

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I'm not necessarily talking about incomers, but muslims born in France. Yes there is a degree of alienation, but in hospital settings where there is virtually no discrimination, you find very integrated, right on FRENCH citizens, regardless of their background. Go on any hospital nights out, it's the Naimas and Ayeshas that beat us hands down for garish make-up, ostentatious jewellery, tarty clothing and sexy dancing, believe me.

I used to have a colleague who outside of work wears the Islamic headscarf, but her best friends were our gay male colleagues and she was a 100% signed up raving fag hag. Her case is not unique. We absolutely can't and shouldn't judge people by what they appear to be, or we sink to the level of calamity/Mickey W/coldsore.

Urethra Franklin said:

I beleive you are wrong to say the whole left. I think the left is divided on this issue. The left has never been perfect on sexism - old fashioned macho syndalicalistes etc., but it remains streets ahead of the right.

Many on the left condemn the misogyny of traditional Islam. I speak as a very left wing woman with a muslim partner who is pro-Israel. I am not unique in that stance.

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Of course they are divided, but this division will have to be solved. Failing so, many will move to movements ready to fight Islam, even though those movements are less inclined to progressiveness. First you deal with the big long-term threat, then you come back to the regular fights.

Who's to say it shouldn't happen?

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I want France to have a French culture, not a Franco-Islamic one. Period.

For me Islam is a despicable influence, from its very name and principle ("submission") to its religiosity, the fact that Muhammad was a feudal warlord, slaver, rapist, pedophile, or the idea that morale and truth should be derived from a 7th century book rather than discovered by ourselves. It is the antithesis of enlightenment and progressiveness. Islam is to France what an acid spray is to a woman's face.

And I find curious that a self-claimed feminist tells me "why not Islam?" You may have anecdotes about Muslims who shares your views but you very well know that Islam is not a neutral influence when it comes to feminism. At the civilizational level, it does make an influence.

Well, I come from a country where since the 1970s hospitals have routinely provided asian vegetarian (for hindus), halal and kosher options, and if the funding's there to do that I'm alright with it, provided it's not just one group that's singled out for special treatment. Sick people often need to be encouraged to eat and a sick Muslim or Jew isn't going to be enticed by a tartiflette. Some hospitals provide a "sans porc" option for staff which does the Muslims and Jews in one go. So long as pork isn't eliminated for everybody, I'm OK with that.

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But is it legit to ask public institutions, financed by everyone's taxes, to pay for the superstitions of everyone? All of this is far to be free and it ends up helping building Mosques with my money. It is like asking a Jew to pay for Nazism. Twenty years ago Muslims rarely cared about halal, now we should do everything possible to offer ten sorts of meals everywhere?

No. One normal non-religious meal, and if there is budget for this we add a neutral vegan meal. Anyway the more efforts we make, the more they ask for. No more concessions, not a single one, we lost enough. Compromises made things worse, now it is time for an unilateral hard line.

I'm not necessarily talking about incomers, but muslims born in France. Yes there is a degree of alienation, but in hospital settings where there is virtually no discrimination, you find very integrated, right on FRENCH citizens, regardless of their background. Go on any hospital nights out, it's the Naimas and Ayeshas that beat us hands down for garish make-up, ostentatious jewellery, tarty clothing and sexy dancing, believe me.

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I grew up in a Muslim ghetto, so I am familiar with the exuberance you mentioned and obviously not surprised an instant by your anecdote. But none of this contradicts what I said, I never pretended that Muslims are aliens from another planet, or all radicals busy praying all the day. They are humans, diverse, volatiles, full of paradoxes.

I simply say that overall they have a negative effect on my country, that I do not want their cultural influence, and that I no longer believe it will improve in the future.

As for the medical sector, once again I am not familiar with it. I am neither aware of a higher amount of Muslims (physicians excepted), nor able to analyze it.

Lafayette said:

You obviously dived into this forum without reading what has come before.

I suggest you either read or re-read my previous post here where I explain why welcoming the migrants is an absolute must if Europe is to flourish economically in the future. That argument as described is solid, though it might be above your level.

Europe needs those migrants, unlike the US*, but people like you cannot see beyond their noses ...

*And, in fact, if the US doesn't need the migrants (according to the argument in that linked post), it is because they have been coming for quite some time massively, and they contribute to the economy positively. For which, the US has no real need for them beyond their present level of entry. But, shutting them out would be a really stoopid mistake.
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What kinds of jobs are migrants capable of performing?

The kinds of low skilled labor that's currently being eliminated through the use of automation?

Did Berenberg take that into consideration while compiling their very pro-immigration results?

Or maybe Berenberg (a German bank), realizes that more migrants means more potential customers who will end up in debt to Berenberg?

I wonder if more migrants will also boost the real estate market, which Berenberg is also likely to benefit from?

Should Europe set their immigration policy based on what banks recommend? Would that be "stoopid"?

Urethra Franklin said:

Yes and no. Remember the success of Ni Pute Ni Soumise? You do get these unlikely alliances like fundamentalist Christians and radical feminists united against pornography.
Through the many strong muslim women I know I do see hope, but as you say, it is sure gonna take some time.

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Radical feminism loses to primal cultures' disregard for women every time.

Auvergnat said:

Of course they are divided, but this division will have to be solved. Failing so, many will move to movements ready to fight Islam, even though those movements are less inclined to progressiveness. First you deal with the big long-term threat, then you come back to the regular fights.


I want France to have a French culture, not a Franco-Islamic one. Period.

For me Islam is a despicable influence, from its very name and principle ("submission") to its religiosity, the fact that Muhammad was a feudal warlord, slaver, rapist, pedophile, or the idea that morale and truth should be derived from a 7th century book rather than discovered by ourselves. It is the antithesis of enlightenment and progressiveness. Islam is to France what an acid spray is to a woman's face.

And I find curious that a self-claimed feminist tells me "why not Islam?" You may have anecdotes about Muslims who shares your views but you very well know that Islam is not a neutral influence when it comes to feminism. At the civilizational level, it does make an influence.


But is it legit to ask public institutions, financed by everyone's taxes, to pay for the superstitions of everyone? All of this is far to be free and it ends up helping building Mosques with my money. It is like asking a Jew to pay for Nazism. Twenty years ago Muslims rarely cared about halal, now we should do everything possible to offer ten sorts of meals everywhere?

No. One normal non-religious meal, and if there is budget for this we add a neutral vegan meal. Anyway the more efforts we make, the more they ask for. No more concessions, not a single one, we lost enough. Compromises made things worse, now it is time for an unilateral hard line.


I grew up in a Muslim ghetto, so I am familiar with the exuberance you mentioned and obviously not surprised an instant by your anecdote. But none of this contradicts what I said, I never pretended that Muslims are aliens from another planet, or all radicals busy praying all the day. They are humans, diverse, volatiles, full of paradoxes.

I simply say that overall they have a negative effect on my country, that I do not want their cultural influence, and that I no longer believe it will improve in the future.

As for the medical sector, once again I am not familiar with it. I am neither aware of a higher amount of Muslims (physicians excepted), nor able to analyze it.

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We'll agree to differ Auvergnat. As a foreigner here I've been warmly welcomed, and I'm proud of the diversity of France. I don't see others as a threat, and I think if the French try too hard to assert an aggressive Franco-français and nothing else identity, it will backfire.

Urethra Franklin said:

We'll agree to differ Auvergnat. As a foreigner here I've been warmly welcomed, and I'm proud of the diversity of France. I don't see others as a threat, and I think if the French try too hard to assert an aggressive Franco-français and nothing else identity, it will backfire.

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First of all I appreciate that we have been able to clearly express what we disagree upon. Thank you for this.

Second of all I do not see others as a threat, only Islam as a nasty influence. Interestingly in France, "diversity" has become an euphemism to say "quota of Muslims". French diversity is regrettably not cosmopolitanism, which would suit Paris well, it is not about people from all continents, it is about a big pack of Muslims, Mosques, veiled women and halal food.

Third of all I am not afraid of backfire; conflict is way better than submission. Furthermore there is no guarantee that submission would yield peace; a civil war may be already inevitable. If our blood is the price to pay to not peacefully succumb to Islam, so be it.

Auvergnat said:

First of all I appreciate that we have been able to clearly express what we disagree upon. Thank you for this..

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I have also appraciated the discussion (and its civil tone!!) and found your perspective interesting. Merci!