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Should police allow officers to wear burka on patrol

Should police allow officers to wear burka on patrol?

  • Total voters
    25
Infinite Chaos said:
Yup, several muslim regiments fought for the UK in WW1 and 2. Apparently there was even an SS mountain unit fighting for the Nazis in WW2.

More importantly, what I think is there are not enough muslims joining the UK forces. More muslims have gone to fight for ISIS than joined the UK military and that needs addressing.
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But at this time we were not fighting Muslims. For the upcoming decades the vast majority of our threats will be Muslims, so a rational mind should worry how many Muslim soldiers will betray us and what danger this will pose to their brothers-in-arms and other citizens.


And given what we know, many would betray:
* After bombings on Kosovo, in 1999, sixty Muslim sailors revolted on the Foch carrier and detained their commandant as a hostage.
* Another set of problems occurred a few years later on another carrier, with self-claimed imams organizing illegal prayers and "subverting the meaning of the engagement in the French army" (no further explanation available).
* Muslim soldiers are 3.5 times more prone to abandon their duty, 6 to 8 times more to disobedience.
* Out of ten young French Muslims, only one claim that he would be ready to defend his country. But two are ready to join the army (half of them being women, to escape familial oppression).
* The head Muslim almoner in the army claimed that he is "Algerian by heart" and petitioned for the penalization of blasphemies.
* 46% of French Muslims say they are Muslims first. 3% in Spain, 7% in GB, 13% in Germany. Source. I bet for non-Muslims in France, the answer would be above 80%.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Let's get some facts out there before our usual suspects go crazy -

1) Muslim Association are against the idea.
2) This is just an idea at the moment.
3) Only one police force is considering this idea - it's not the whole UK.
4) Sikhs in the UK police forces are allowed to wear turbans on patrol (but not on "armed officer" duty)

My position on burkas on patrol is an absolute no: you need to be able to see the face of the officer dealing with you and to see their facial signals if you are under arrest or any other conversation. I also think I.D purposes are essential - if the police officer has committed an error or carried out their duties wrongly, you need to be able to identify them.
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Absolutely not. For the reasons you give, obviously. This is a bad time in history to be giving the public one less reason to trust you by refusing to even show your face.

But also, imagine she's out on a call for an assailant with a weapon, and she can't see what the hell is going on because she has no peripheral vision at all, and possibly also reduced vision from the front. The burkas that have the gauze eye slits are like wearing sunglasses, so they'd be impaired by day and basically blind by night. Burkas also muffle your hearing, so they can't rely on that either. And then there's the length of them and the lack of articulated arms, so they can't move properly in addition to all that. They'd be unable to either run or draw a weapon quickly enough for it to make a difference.

Impaired sight, impaired hearing, impaired movement. That sounds like a recipe for a dead cop, to me. Her very first crime-in-progress, and she'll be leaving the scene on a stretcher.

It's a bad idea for their relations with civilians and police transparency, yes. But it's also a bad idea for the safety of the officer.
 
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Patrickt said:
Really? I'm surprised. I have no idea what your comment has to do with my post that you quoted.
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If you didn't get what I posted then the Europe forum is probably not the place for you.
 
Auvergnat said:
But at this time we were not fighting Muslims.
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False
For the upcoming decades the vast majority of our threats will be Muslims, so a rational mind should worry how many Muslim soldiers will betray us and what danger this will pose to their brothers-in-arms and other citizens.
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a rational mind will work on what is or can be established as fact and not waste itself on speculations.

None of what follows and edited by me for brevity being evidenced in any way, certainly not as Islamic jihadism being the main drive for anything happening where it did happen.
 
Chagos said:
Falsea rational mind will work on what is or can be established as fact and not waste itself on speculations.
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This is a blatant non-sense. Unknowns are unavoidable and they have to be taken into account on almost every topic and in almost every field, including the most formal sciences. The very concepts of "threat", "anticipation" or "probability" relate to uncertainty.

By deciding to ignore the dangers posed by Muslim countries and soldiers you make an arbitrary and irrational choice in front of uncertainty. By ignoring this uncertainty and claiming you should ignore it, you are as irrational as a man racing at 250km/h while claiming that he cannot have accident or be arrested.

certainly not as Islamic jihadism being the main drive for anything happening where it did happen.
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The contribution of jihadism or lack of is irrelevant. What matters is that whenever France fights a Muslim country or Muslim group, many or most of Muslims side against us. And most of our threats are Muslims. This poses a manifest problem to the military and police recruiters. At least it should.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
The numbers are low but female officers do exist. The hijab has been approved since 2001 and the muslim police officer's federation has recorded and supports some 2000 practicing muslim officers. A small number are female but they exist.
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Alright, you're from the UK, right? Have you ever seen a Muslim woman police officer wearing a burka, with your own eyes?
 
Auvergnat said:
This is a blatant non-sense.
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That's what I implied, so thanks for the confirmation. I also realize you find it inopportune to address your own false statement of Muslims never having fought in the French army against other Muslims, but that was to be expected with you.
Unknowns are unavoidable and they have to be taken into account on almost every topic and in almost every field, including the most formal sciences. The very concepts of "threat", "anticipation" or "probability" relate to uncertainty.
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Yes, but that has nothing to do with the speculations that you constantly supply as a supposed factual basis for anything. Even where it's nice that you admit uncertainty here rather than factuality. But you probably didn't realize it.
By deciding to ignore the dangers posed by Muslim countries and soldiers you make an arbitrary and irrational choice in front of uncertainty. By ignoring this uncertainty and claiming you should ignore it, you are as irrational as a man racing at 250km/h while claiming that he cannot have accident or be arrested.
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Basing decisions upon uncertainties may be the latest rage where you come from, but one can safely (and happily) assume that nobody is considering you for a decision making position anywhere, on account of pursuing such irrational rot. Beyond which the analogy is actually too silly for me to consider it worthy of any further address.
The contribution of jihadism or lack of is irrelevant. What matters is that whenever France fights a Muslim country or Muslim group, many or most of Muslims side against us. And most of our threats are Muslims.
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......and once again you provide absolutely nothing in corroboration, let alone even outline what you actually mean.

What are most Muslims? Are those being fought the ones siding (against)? Are others?

Try and add some coherence and cogency to your suppositions instead of simply gish galloping all over the place
This poses a manifest problem to the military and police recruiters. At least it should.
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Well, does it or should it?

If you can't even make your mind up over that, how do you expect your suppositions to be taken seriously at all?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Got a link in English?
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No. And it is hard enough to get data about Muslims in France/EU given our repressive anti-discrimination laws. If we had better data we would have already stopped immigration a long time ago.

Your source (PEW) shows stats for both muslims and Christians, not muslims alone.
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The label is misleading, it is about Muslims in Western countries, and about Christians in Muslim countries (Nigeria). See the full document.

Other points of interest:
* Very/fairly strong sense of Islamic identity: 59% (US), 84% (DE), 76% (FR).
* Is Islamic identity growing in your country? 47% (US), 72% (DE), 68% (FR)
* Is the growth of Islamic identity a good thing? 87% bad for French citizens, 59% good for French Muslims.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Got a link in English?
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It isn't any better in French even if one goes to sources other than those depicted. What those depict absolutely shows no KNOWING, they show suspicions and rumours and readily admit to both.
Your source (PEW) shows stats for both muslims and Christians, not muslims alone.
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PEW can often be sloppy in its titles. The first column actually DOES show "Muslims" on the left, just above "Great Britain"

What it does not supply are replies to the question "would you rise against your command if you were employed against people of your own faith?"

I have no way of KNOWING this, but I'll speculate :mrgreen: that being due to the question not having been asked.
 
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Auvergnat said:
No. And it is hard enough to get data about Muslims in France/EU given our repressive anti-discrimination laws. If we had better data we would have already stopped immigration a long time ago.....~
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Sez who? You?

Well, in that case forgive us for moving on upon the basis of "nothing much to see here". As adequately demonstrated so far.
 
Chagos said:
Muslims never having fought in the French army against other Muslims, but that was to be expected with you.
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While muslims appear to comprise an insignificant percentage of France's military, they do represent themselves quite well in other areas of French life:

"France's prison population is estimated to be 70 per cent Muslim - and yet there are fewer imams visiting French prisons than British. "

That's truly an astonishing figure, isn't it?
What is going wrong in France's prisons? - Telegraph
 
Chagos said:
It isn't any better in French even if one goes to sources other than those depicted. What those depict absolutely shows no KNOWING, they show suspicions and rumours and readily admit to both.
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The source I provided is mainly a collection of quotes and figures from official reports, high-ranked officials, renowned medias and renowned authors, some leftists and pro-Muslims.

Does it sometimes over-interpret things or mentions a source that does so? Yes. But the figures and quotes remain exact. And I prefer an irritating partiality to the unbearably loud silence from consensual medias - another form of partiality.

As adequately demonstrated so far.
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Oh noes, Chagos once again demonstrated me to be wrong. What a pro demonstrator, he's so good at demonstrating with all of his definitive assertions that prove the truth with the best proving proofs. Pro best roxxor demonstrator ever, damn him! Much demontration, such good arguments, I am totally rofledmao by elite king demonstrator Chagos. If someone does not answer him, it's because he runs away of the POW of his assertions. One more WIN for Chagos! Social Justice triumphs again!

truthatallcost said:
"France's prison population is estimated to be 70 per cent Muslim - and yet there are fewer imams visiting French prisons than British. "
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Actually this number is only true about the prisons around Paris, where the highest concentration of Muslims is found (12% of the population in Paris itself, one third of high-schoolers in the region). This is a pretty bad and sensationalist article from the Telegraph.
 
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If the word POLICE is printed on the burka in large letters visible in the day and at night I don't see the problem.
 
Rico Suave said:
If the word POLICE is printed on the burka in large letters visible in the day and at night I don't see the problem.
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We should also add speakers to broadcast the Benny Hill music anytime they chase criminals.
 
Auvergnat said:
We should also add speakers to broadcast the Benny Hill music anytime they chase criminals.
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****! Good thing I wasn't drinking when I read this...........................................
 
Auvergnat said:
The source I provided is mainly a collection of quotes and figures from official reports, high-ranked officials, renowned medias and renowned authors, some leftists and pro-Muslims.

Does it sometimes over-interpret things or mentions a source that does so? Yes. But the figures and quotes remain exact. And I prefer an irritating partiality to the unbearably loud silence from consensual medias - another form of partiality.
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All very well and, while we're at it, let's also address the fact that coming up with evidenced reports is the least of your preferences.
Oh noes, Chagos once again demonstrated me to be wrong. What a pro demonstrator, he's so good at demonstrating with all of his definitive assertions that prove the truth with the best proving proofs. Pro best roxxor demonstrator ever, damn him! Much demontration, such good arguments, I am totally rofledmao by elite king demonstrator Chagos. If someone does not answer him, it's because he runs away of the POW of his assertions. One more WIN for Chagos! Social Justice triumphs again!
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Do you enjoy the embarrassment you cause yourself by having a meltdown of silliness in public such as here?

Well, enjoy yourself all you want, just don't expect your standing to improve by any of it.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
_89902367_hijab.jpg



There have been observant muslim female police officers for over 10 years.
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no burkas here
 
Auvergnat said:
~ The label is misleading, it is about Muslims in Western countries, and about Christians in Muslim countries ~
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Odd, strange for a centre as reputable as PEW to have such crude errors then, the headline is about Muslims in Europe and then the heading of the table you chose is about muslims and christians view of themselves.

truthatallcost said:
Alright, you're from the UK, right? Have you ever seen a Muslim woman police officer wearing a burka, with your own eyes?
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You READ and KNOW the OP is about whether we should start allowing this or not?

And as I said in my OP, I am against - equally, we allow Sikhs to wear religious garb (turban) in addition to the police uniform however nobody has shown that the nib / hijab / burka are religious attire.

We should NOT allow non religious attire to modify the uniform.

_Sal said:
no burkas here
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Yeah and there should never be, they're not religious attire and as significantly important like a Sikh's turban.
 
Chagos said:
Stop nit-picking. You'll raise some people's level of understanding to the point of their having a migraine. :mrgreen:
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some people "should" have a migraine...:2razz:

Infinite Chaos said:
Yeah and there should never be, they're not religious attire and as significantly important like a Sikh's turban.
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I agree and as my girlfriend (who refuses to wear a burqa or a hijab despite her families ire) says, they are the equivalent of wearing chains because that is what they represent...the enslavement of women...when are we going to accept that and ban them?
 
Henrin said:
Wait...I thought these women were tightly controlled. Why would the man controlling her allow her to be a police officer?
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There are such things as unmarried Muslim women. I know quite a few. Some of them actually live on their own. Amazing.
 
zyzygy said:
There are such things as unmarried Muslim women. I know quite a few. Some of them actually live on their own. Amazing.
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I actually know three divorced ones. Of the type where they filed for divorce (not the husbands). Living on their own as well.

Not saying that it was as easy for them as for a "standard" Western woman. Just that it can happen.
 
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