So, Erdogan is Issuing USA Ultimatums Now.

Tigerace117 said:

The problem with that, of course, is that lots of those left wing movements are just as authoritarian as the right wingers when they get into power.

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Rightist malarkey painting the "reds" as rabid Hitlerites. Name-calling, that's all - for those bereft of any historical perspective.

There is NOT a Left-wing government in Europe that is "authoritarian". The only two left are in the far east. Besides, that bent is typically Rightist in nature.

In fact, most people complain of the Left for not being sufficiently authoritarian in the execution of public policy. ("Spineless Lefties" is the appellation that comes to mind.) True enough, the Left knows how to care for people, but get the execution of policy mostly wrong.

And finally, it is the Centrists who have the high-ground. Namely because they realize that government authority depends upon the nature of the problem and not "party doctrine". Some solutions call for measures that please the Right, and some please the Left. (When that happens, one knows that the government must be doing most things correctly.)

And who should give a damn, frankly, as long as they solve the given problem ... ?
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Lafayette said:

Rightist malarkey painting the "reds" as rabid Hitlerites. Name-calling, that's all - for those bereft of any historical perspective.

There is NOT a Left-wing government in Europe that is "authoritarian". The only two left are in the far east. Besides, that bent is typically Rightist in nature.

In fact, most people complain of the Left for not being sufficiently authoritarian in the execution of public policy. ("Spineless Lefties" is the appellation that comes to mind.) True enough, the Left knows how to care for people, but get the execution of policy mostly wrong.

And finally, it is the Centrists who have the high-ground. Namely because they realize that government authority depends upon the nature of the problem and not "party doctrine". Some solutions call for measures that please the Right, and some please the Left. (When that happens, one knows that the government must be doing most things correctly.)

And who should give a damn, frankly, as long as they solve the given problem ... ?
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Oh, I'd say the FARC and Shining Path and the like fit the bill, in some ways. In Eastern Europe there was a running competition to see who could be most relentlessly awful.

Honestly, authoritarianism isn't exclusive to the right. Far from it. It's just the left wing guerillas and movements have to pretend to care about the people in order to get more fighters, so they gave more of a happy shiny face then their right wing counterparts.

FieldTheorist said:

Erdogan is dangerous. He's an authoritarian fascist who places value in theocracy. He has power where few in that region do, and under the right circumstances, he could do real damage.

What to do about him? I'm not sure. I wouldn't give him military weapons, however, or be hopeful about working with him. With the radicalization of right-wing groups across the world, from Putin to Erdogan to Trump to the fascists in Eastern Europe and Poland and France, it seems that there's quite a bit of danger in these authoritarian leaders. If they decide to start working together, that could be very, very bad.

The more neoliberalism suppresses left-wing movements, the more they ensure that right-wing despots will continue to crop up all over the world. Despite my seething dislike of authoritarianism and also Islamism, I think that neoliberal capitalism is probably the most dangerous ideology in human history. It's superficially rational, but when it's policies are implemented, it leads to wild disintegration of social structures and establishments --which promotes the massive instabilities that follow. And that opens the door to otherwise totally unacceptable ideas, like fascism, Islamism, Communism, etc.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. He's also pulling NATO into Putin's camp by scapegoating terrorism (the way Bush did with Iraq). Before long the U.S. will be completely isolated due to Turkey and Europe's growing disillusionment with Washington. I bet a large factor of that last point is due to the Presidential Candidates the U.S. Government is fielding.

NATO Says Turkey Is ‘Valued Ally’ After Erdogan Visit to Russia
NATO says Turkey remains a ‘valued ally’ after Erdogan visits Putin in Moscow

And yet, nearly every other NATO country is going "WTF!? STAHP!":


Whether you agree with the West or not, NATO is being irresponsible and essentially giving its member-states the finger by continuing to enable, support and legitimize these psychopaths.

Hawkeye10 said:

Wasn't one of the half dozen biggest blunders offering them entry into Europe when near as I can figure almost no one wanted them, and then doing nothing much to promote getting it done?

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Not necessarily. The EU could have (and probably would have) reigned in on Erdogan's tyranny to some degree.

Abbazorkzog said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. He's also pulling NATO into Putin's camp by scapegoating terrorism (the way Bush did with Iraq). Before long the U.S. will be completely isolated due to Turkey and Europe's growing disillusionment with Washington. I bet a large factor of that last point is due to the Presidential Candidates the U.S. Government is fielding.[/INDENT]

Whether you agree with the West or not, NATO is being irresponsible and essentially giving its member-states the finger by continuing to enable, support and legitimize these psychopaths.

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I'm not going to commit to the idea that NATO is being irresponsible on this particular issue (although by induction, they probably are), but I will say that in general, I stand by my statement that the world is becoming unstable. People are calling this the "China century," but frankly I have no idea how any of this is going to go down. The only thing that I will lay money down on is that neoliberal capitalism is in a crisis stage. I'm not sure what happens from there. In a very real sense, we're writing the history book on how humanity responds to this. Right now, I'd say that things look particularly bleak to me.

Between the West's refusal to reign in neoliberalism (which we can see with the outcomes of the presidential primaries), the only successful counter-neoliberal groups are reactionary right-wing, the fact that the most pessimistic models of global warming are appearing to be the ones that Nature is following, and so forth, things are not looking up for humanity.

Tigerace117 said:

The problem with that, of course, is that lots of those left wing movements are just as authoritarian as the right wingers when they get into power.

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I agree that left-wing authoritarian movements exist, too (China, USSR, Khmer Rouge, etc). But that's not what I'm seeing crop up; there's usually a tenuous, partial adoption of left-wing economics (e.g. things like so-called "white socialism" --which is an oxymoron if taken literally, but they mean "whites-only social safety nets"). But the rest is very right-wing and authoritarian, e.g. a concentration of private wealth, hierarchical leadership, a desire for racial stratification and/or cultural purity, etc.

Neoliberalism has nearly destroyed every last left-wing authoritarian government at this point. Between the corporate coups, the fall of the USSR, trade deals that necessitate things like China's name-only "market socialism" (which essentially just a bizarre form of mixed/state capitalism with a highly authoritarian oligarchy). There's only a small handful of them left in Asia and South America.

Tigerace117 said:

Oh, I'd say the FARC and Shining Path and the like fit the bill, in some ways. In Eastern Europe there was a running competition to see who could be most relentlessly awful.

Honestly, authoritarianism isn't exclusive to the right. Far from it. It's just the left wing guerillas and movements have to pretend to care about the people in order to get more fighters, so they gave more of a happy shiny face then their right wing counterparts.

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Both comets passing in the political firmament. Neither of which exists any longer today. So we should ask Why?

Fringe, militarized political formations make the headlines for some gruesome years and then just fade away. FARC took 60 years to see the light - it lasted longer than most. They don't "work the system" in a politically evolved country but tend to militate their grievances in the lesser-developed world.

That's on the Left. On the Right, and in developed countries - because they are highly moneyed - the "political movements" go on and on and on by controlling parliaments (Congress). For instance, so that absolutely nothing is done about America's outrageous Income Disparity* due to Reaganite upper-income flat-rate taxation at less than 30%!

That started in the 1980s, more than 30 years ago! And it continues unabated today.

Lest we forget, Romney's rate of taxation of 14% during his presidential bid**. Until a politically evolved democracy wakes up to the BigMoney rip-off by a select group of plutocrat rich, nothing can really-'n-finally be done legislatively to correct the abject unfairness ...

*From here.
**See here.
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RELIGIOUS SCHISM

FieldTheorist said:

EHe has power where few in that region do, and under the right circumstances, he could do real damage.

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He is indicative of the region, and of the Muslim Religion itself. In Turkey, and elsewhere in the Middle-east, the people at present want their religion to be practiced as "law of the land". That can never work in the development of a true democracy, since the proof of a Higher Being (upon which religion is based) is lacking.

Nonetheless, the situation elsewhere is not hopeless. I can show you practicing Muslims in France who have no wish whatsoever that Muslim "law" become primary in France. They are every bit as much democrats as any of the French. But that is France. The Muslims are all immigrants who brought their religion with them and adapted to local conditions. They practice their religion as freely as, say, the Jews in France, or the Buddhists.

In countries of the Mahgreb of North Africa, we see Muslim nations trying to establish the very same sort of democracy, free from Muslim theocratic hierarchical control. They must learn to divorce religion (belief in God) from the law (passed by elected representatives), and allow that key division to function equitably.

It's going to be a long, long fight ... longer than many imagine today.

Democracy will inevitably win out, but first the Muslims themselves must fix the schism between the Shiites and the Sunnites that has existed for more than a millennium. Why do Shiites and Sunnites live in comparative peace in European countries?

Because they have learned that religion has nothing whatsoever to do with control of the state and its apparatus - and therefore a country's wealth, typically hydrocarbon in the Middle-east.

As the Christians did in Europe as regards their own schism (Catholic and Protestant), I might add, centuries ago ...
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Abbazorkzog said:

He's (Erdogan) also pulling NATO into Putin's camp by scapegoating terrorism (the way Bush did with Iraq).

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What makes you think that? He's just mending fences. (He went to kiss Putin's ass because Turkey shot down a Russian fighter that had strayed onto its territory some months ago. And since then, Russian tourism in Turkey had plummeted.)

It was a smart-move because Turkey shares a common boundary with Russia called the Black Sea, and Crimea (a major Russian Navy port now) is right across that sea from Turkey.

It was a smart move on his part. But that does not mean Turkey's long term "strategic alliance" should not be the EU, which is a far larger and richer marketplace than Russia.

He was mending fences so that Russian tourists would once again to come to Turkish beaches on vacation. I.e., the move was commercial and not political ...
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Lafayette said:

*Snip* I.e., the move was commercial and not political ...
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Sorry, but if that is the appearance Erdogan is going for, it makes his ulterior motives all the more suspicious and more difficult to believe.

Wiggen said:

I didn't say he was Far Left. I said the European Far Left loves him because he's virulently anti-American. Just like you. You might learn to read before you post ignorance. But then again, why should you start now?

"Ribald comments"? Is English a second language for you? If so, I'd suggest investing in a good dictionary and then the first word you should look up is 'ribald'.:lamo

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Quite funny your comments.
think of this: that American Repulican voters hate lefties does not mean that European leftwingers hate America. May be they hate far right political actions, but thats all. That is Democracy. Tells us something about your big Ego that you think your own political ideas are "America"....

Abbazorkzog said:

Sorry, but if that is the appearance Erdogan is going for, it makes his ulterior motives all the more suspicious and more difficult to believe.

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Not in the least. Besides, he IS the preferred political leader at the moment.

Let's not confuse ourselves. He is a Muslim, but quite unlike either Assad of Syria or Saddam of Iraq or, for that matter, whatever "Muslim Pope" of Iran.

The Turkish people were not keen on the Army's putsche. The military establishment had been running Turkey for decades, and the Turks welcomed free-elections. The elections that Erdogan has won seem to have been tainted, but there was a clear majority of more than 50% of Turkish voters that voted him into power.

I see no evidence provided that voting results were "rigged", just some accusations of the Pace Commission that there was pre-voting harassment of opposition parties. The Pace Commission printed this comment regarding the elections:

19. With regard to freedom of expression and of the media, the Assembly shares the concerns of the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights about ”the alarming scale of recourse to an overly wide notion of terrorism to punish non-violent statements and criminalisation of any message that merely coincide with the perceived interests of a terrorist organisation”.

The Assembly urges Turkey to fully comply with its obligations under all the human rights treaties it has ratified. The Assembly remains concerned by the extensive interpretation of the Anti-Terror Law, which contradicts Council of Europe standards and leads to criminalisation and prosecution of human rights defenders and lawyers. It thus reiterates the call it made in 2013 for Turkey to review its definitions of offences related to terrorism and membership of a criminal organisation in line with the case law of the European Court of Human Rights.

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I do not see from the above any very evident condemnation of the Turkish elections, just a warning to "do better". Turkey will have to "do better" as it seeks admission to the EU.

It has a long row-to-hoe before it gets there, however ...
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Lafayette said:

Not in the least. Besides, he IS the preferred political leader at the moment.

Let's not confuse ourselves. He is a Muslim, but quite unlike either Assad of Syria or Saddam of Iraq or, for that matter, whatever "Muslim Pope" of Iran.

The Turkish people were not keen on the Army's putsche. The military establishment had been running Turkey for decades, and the Turks welcomed free-elections. The elections that Erdogan has won seem to have been tainted, but there was a clear majority of more than 50% of Turkish voters that voted him into power.

I see no evidence provided that voting results were "rigged", just some accusations of the Pace Commission that there was pre-voting harassment of opposition parties. The Pace Commission printed this comment regarding the elections:

I do not see from the above any very evident condemnation of the Turkish elections, just a warning to "do better". Turkey will have to "do better" as it seeks admission to the EU.

It has a long row-to-hoe before it gets there, however ...
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What in the world are you ranting and raving about?

german hick said:

Quite funny your comments.
think of this: that American Repulican voters hate lefties does not mean that European leftwingers hate America. May be they hate far right political actions, but thats all. That is Democracy. Tells us something about your big Ego that you think your own political ideas are "America"....

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I believe your name adequately reflects your understanding of American politics. And had you read this forum at all, you would know that I'm not an "American Republican'.

Your last sentence is incomprehensible so I assume you are another for whom English is a second language.

And the European Left hates the United States with a passion. They have ever since we first saved them from Hitler (you remember Hitler, right?) and then second consigned the Soviet Union - their idea of utopia - to the dustbin of history.

But thanks for sharing.

Lafayette said:

He is indicative of the region, and of the Muslim Religion itself.

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No, he isn't. While the French were still German barbarians scratching their balls and going on holy crusades with children, the Islamic Empire was in a golden age, inventing algebra and advanced pre-calculus mathematics, including some of the basics of calculus.

I don't like Islam. I don't like Christianity. I don't like Judaism, Baha'i Faith, Yazdism, Manichaeism, Mandaeism, and all of the rest of the ridiculous monotheistic Abrahamic religions. But people are people. Islam used to represent a lot of tolerance (relative to the day), social structure (relative to the day), and racial harmony and cosmopolitanism. And they conquered half of the world, and were directly responsible for Europe (via Islamic Spain and Portugal libraries) for reintroducing the West to all of the doctrines, texts, etc, that the Christians had burned as heresy hundreds of years earlier. That lead to the scientific revolution and the Enlightenment. Turkey was originally a very secular, Western nation. Over time, that's been damaged, but it's not the fault of Muslims. It's Erdogan's intense desire to be a despot.

Now, sure, the Qur'an is an outdated text that's outlived its purpose. But that's not more true of Islam than it is of Christianity. And Islam is not more inherently prone to despots, or need you be reminded of the fact that only very recently has Europe and the West been rid of dictators.

Tigerace117 said:

I fail to see the humor in the idea that someone could be convinced to betray their country for a donation.

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And I fail to see where you have shown that anyone has done any such thing.:roll:

Wiggen said:

I believe your name adequately reflects your understanding of American politics.

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I never said I´m an expert on American politics, in opposition to you, it seems you think you are a full expert on European politics. I thought debating in a debate forum means to exchange points of view. My Name is a kind of understatement, I like the idea of not taking myself as serious and infallible as others seem to take themselves.

Wiggen said:

And had you read this forum at all, you would know that I'm not an "American Republican'.

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Never said you were.

Wiggen said:

Your last sentence is incomprehensible so I assume you are another for whom English is a second language.

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No big intellectual performance to assume that. I do my very best and beg for your tolerance.

Wiggen said:

And the European Left hates the United States with a passion. They have ever since we first saved them from Hitler (you remember Hitler, right?) and then second consigned the Soviet Union - their idea of utopia - to the dustbin of history.

But thanks for sharing.

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Thats your opinion. I have another.

btw: as I don´t feel guilty for the Nazi times, you never saved me - your ancestors might have.

To return to the Sultan.......................so he's now back to bombing the Kurds (again).

Our great NATO ally bombing the very people that NATO supports in their fight against IS.

Maybe it's time the US applied for the extradition of Erdogan?