• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

shooting in shopping centre, Munich-Germany[W:111. W:209]

PIPEWRENCH said:
For the law abiding citizen. The criminal still steals them or brings them in illegally the same as drugs.
Click to expand...

The law abiding citizens are facilitating a massive pool of weapons from which it is easy to draw a massive pool of illegal weapons. Unless you are accusing the likes of Smith and Wesson of manufacturing specifically illegal weapons then where exactly are the illegal weapons coming from?
 
Chagos said:
I won't even attempt to unravel the convoluted logic here. :roll:
Click to expand...

Some people appear to have made an idol of their constitution like some people do with the Bible and you just cannot reason them out of doing the same things over, and over, and over again with the same result.
 
William Rea said:
The law abiding citizens are facilitating a massive pool of weapons from which it is easy to draw a massive pool of illegal weapons. Unless you are accusing the likes of Smith and Wesson of manufacturing specifically illegal weapons then where exactly are the illegal weapons coming from?
Click to expand...
There are speculations (no more) that in this particular case acquisition might have been via the dark net. But whether the contact was anonymous or there was RL negotiation with an illegal dealer, question to be solved is where the shooter got the money from. Hartz-4 (UB 40) doesn't really cut it for a 9mm Glock that's already expensive if you can acquire it legally.
 
William Rea said:
Some people appear to have made an idol of their constitution like some people do with the Bible and you just cannot reason them out of doing the same things over, and over, and over again with the same result.
Click to expand...
Yeah, ideology poisoning is like being on a drunk binge. No room for critical distance, let alone thinking of that nature.
 
Chagos said:
So?

That's still a helluva lot more troublesome and thus difficult than being able to just buy a piece at a local show.
Click to expand...

Dream on. At the gun shows I was at there were lots of cops walking around. Every gun dealer I talked to had to follow the same rules and laws as if I were in their place of business. If it was a private citizen they had to follow the same rules and laws as if I wanted to buy a gun from them any other time or place. So unless one of us is uninformed the law applies the same at gun shows as it does anywhere else or any other time. It is even illegal to shoot people at a gun show the same as every place else. I have yet to find a single law that you can get around or circumvent at a gun show legally. So a lot of misinformed people are making one hell of a mountain not out of a mole hill but nothing at all.
 
Last edited:
PIPEWRENCH said:
Dream on. At the gun shows I was at there were lots of cops walking around. Every gun dealer I talked to had to follow the same rules and laws as if I were in their place of business. If it was a private citizen they had to follow the same rules and laws as if I wanted to buy a gun from them any other time or place. So unless one of us is uninformed the law applies the same at gun shows as it does anywhere else or any other time. It is even illegal to shoot people at a gun show the same as every place else. I have yet to find a single law that you can get around or circumvent at a gun show legally. So a lot of misinformed people are making one hell of a mountain not out of a mole hill but nothing at all.
Click to expand...
Well, apart from this thread not being about gun laws in the US, however much you want to turn it into that, there are no gun shows in Germany anyway.
 
William Rea said:
The law abiding citizens are facilitating a massive pool of weapons from which it is easy to draw a massive pool of illegal weapons. Unless you are accusing the likes of Smith and Wesson of manufacturing specifically illegal weapons then where exactly are the illegal weapons coming from?
Click to expand...

Did you know that all criminals were law abiding citizens who could purchase a gun legally before they were caught and became criminals. So we should take away the rights of all people because we know a few people will use their rights to do harm to others. Please. How about we just punish those that do wrong and leave everyone else alone. I am not a fan of the minority report type of justice.
 
I did not bring up gun shows but was responding to a post that infers that somehow people at gun shows do not have to obey the law or have some legal way of circumventing the law putting guns in the had of criminals that could not happen otherwise. Just providing information to the uninformed.
 
Re: shooting in shopping centre, Munich-Germany[W:111]

The shooter visited Winnenden last year and took photos there. To those that followed all this with attention, there was a "Columbine style" shooting there over 7 years ago. Beyond this extensive literature dealing with spree killings was found in his dwellings. He was, as previously stated, equally infatuated with Breivik and, like Breivik, he composed a "manifesto". That is currently being evaluated by the police, no details published as yet. The "manifesto" was found on his PC and there are still terrabytes to be evaluated. Police disclosed so far that it dwelled headily upon the Winnenden shootings, references to Breivik so far not found in it, however.

The Glock-17 used was once disabled to serve as a theatre prop but had been re-conditioned to its original functionality again. It is assumed to have come from Slovakia and evaluation of the perp's PC confirms that he purchased it via the Darknet.

He was in stationary psychiatric treatment in a clinic for two months last year and, following that, undergoing (non-stationary) treatment by other doctors.

Corresponding medication was found where he lived, whether he took it regularly or not cannot be determined right now.

His disorder was for anxiety, aggression, social phobia etc., all linked to heavy depression.

He did not hack into anybody else's FB-account but created the account in question himself, using a false (girl) identity and instrumentalizing the account to circulate a "random" invitation to meet at the McDonalds. It's meanwhile been disabled.

No political or religious motive can be established so far, no signs of any affiliation with or leaning towards IS or jihadism of any other nature/source.

*press conference held by Munich police, ending some minutes ago*
 
Last edited:
William Rea said:
Some people appear to have made an idol of their constitution like some people do with the Bible and you just cannot reason them out of doing the same things over, and over, and over again with the same result.
Click to expand...

How many European states can say they've never been an authoritarian state or a dicatatorship?
 
Carjosse said:
Did not take long to find that.
Click to expand...

'Left' gives priority to the collective over the individual. It is for big government funded by high taxes and for government changing society by regulation and coercion. The far left believes in absolute state power.

*Right' is suspicious of the state and seeks to limit its power and keep its activities to a minimum. It is for freedom of speech, economic activity and assembly. The further right one goes the closer one gets to libertarianism and individual freedom.

What Socialism, Communism, Fascism and Nazism have in common is a powerful state which demands conformism and which stifles dissent. They are absolutist differ and only in minor ways such as attitudes to private property.

I write my own posts Carjosse in preference to cutting and pasting misleading text.
 
Sweden said:
'Left' gives priority to the collective over the individual. It is for big government funded by high taxes and for government changing society by regulation and coercion. The far left believes in absolute state power.

*Right' is suspicious of the state and seeks to limit its power and keep its activities to a minimum. It is for freedom of speech, economic activity and assembly. The further right one goes the closer one gets to libertarianism and individual freedom.

What Socialism, Communism, Fascism and Nazism have in common is a powerful state which demands conformism and which stifles dissent. They are absolutist differ and only in minor ways such as attitudes to private property.

I write my own posts Carjosse in preference to cutting and pasting misleading text.
Click to expand...
There's already a mod's warning in post #111 and another at post #209 reminding of the same.

Maybe you've missed both, so you're welcome.
 
I was tempted to start a new thread with this, but changed my mind. let's see if it changes anyone elses. Some fascinating background to the shooting/shooter.

" ...In this context, many young people from immigrant backgrounds - people who were born and raised in the West and saw themselves as part of their countries - began to realise that in the eyes of others, they were foreigners and would always be foreigners. This racist current had a tremendous effect on the self-image of many young people - and I consider myself one of them - and for many young people of Muslim background in particular it created many mental health problems.
Many Iranians in Western countries actually left their own country due to the rise of the Islamist current there, many second-generation Iranians have extreme hostility toward not only their homeland's government, but also to Islam in general.

Before the 1979 Revolution [in Iran] the idea that Iranians were "Aryans" and descended from a grand race with roots in India and links to Europe was widely taught and believed. Just like nationalist myths in every country, in Iran, this was useful for the government and helped create resentment and a sense of superiority over Turks, Arabs, and Islam.

In recent years, some young Iranian men have been attracted to such views, and on the internet they are widely promoted by white supremacists… the exceptional thing in the Iranian case is that it aligns with European right-wing nationalist beliefs..."

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...shooting-and-rightwing-extremism--ZyxgPR9QH8b
 
Manc Skipper said:
I was tempted to start a new thread with this, but changed my mind. let's see if it changes anyone elses. Some fascinating background to the shooting/shooter.

" ...In this context, many young people from immigrant backgrounds - people who were born and raised in the West and saw themselves as part of their countries - began to realise that in the eyes of others, they were foreigners and would always be foreigners. This racist current had a tremendous effect on the self-image of many young people - and I consider myself one of them - and for many young people of Muslim background in particular it created many mental health problems.
Many Iranians in Western countries actually left their own country due to the rise of the Islamist current there, many second-generation Iranians have extreme hostility toward not only their homeland's government, but also to Islam in general.

Before the 1979 Revolution [in Iran] the idea that Iranians were "Aryans" and descended from a grand race with roots in India and links to Europe was widely taught and believed. Just like nationalist myths in every country, in Iran, this was useful for the government and helped create resentment and a sense of superiority over Turks, Arabs, and Islam.

In recent years, some young Iranian men have been attracted to such views, and on the internet they are widely promoted by white supremacists… the exceptional thing in the Iranian case is that it aligns with European right-wing nationalist beliefs..."

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...shooting-and-rightwing-extremism--ZyxgPR9QH8b
Click to expand...
Yes, very instructive. Especially on the non-status that those born in the country now "theirs" (not "host" like to their once migrating parents) perceive as holding.

I've found that when one gets to know even a third generation Maghrebinian in Spain or France or a third generation Turk in Germany, scratching the surface (if one can establish sufficient intimacy to achieve that) will often have this diffuse sense of inadequacy come to the fore. Manifesting itself in expressions of superiority that go far beyond simple pride in national and cultural origin and are, of course, the manifestation of an enormous inferiority complex. The latter being, of course, rooted in feelings of inferiority heavily denied.

Dangerous to paint with the proverbial broad brush though, I've seen at least as many cases not demonstrating this.

Yet the issue of integration is light years from having reached a satisfactory conclusion, even those "non-indigenous" (and excuse the foul language) with lesser problems over it have managed more along a path of "suck it and see" than anything else. Any argument over who's more to blame (locals, state institutions, "the furriners") is nothing much more than the chicken and egg thing. I don't know the answer other than paying attention starting with the small things. Like railway police (for instance) not so obviously checking on the clearly recognizable "other" first of all. Hell, if it means being equally rude to everyone, I'll prefer that.

Regarding this immediate issue here, that somebody not even two years out of own completely different cultural circle (war-torn at that) and having travelled Gawd knows what perilous route to leave and arrive, will become a beer swigging and Bratwurst munching Lederhosen-Kraut in a short time is hardly to be expected (even where that latter image is very much a cliché as well). Especially when having spent however long in a shelter after arrival and, other than Moroccans coming to France or Spain, not having any of the local language at all. Subsequent feeling of complete loss of identity need not lead to substance abuse and all the additional problems that entails, but where it does that's hardly a surprise.

continued................
 
....carried on from #215...........

..........as a side note, almost all of the 9/11 perps attended university in the Wests, the leader Mohammed Atta and others in Hamburg. By comparison a somewhat privileged class in this where the hosting conditions ere concerned. Yet at least he is reported of having complained over having to pass rows and rows of porn shops, peep show joints and similar establishments on his morning walk to the campus (not to mention the night passage back home). His disgust was very obvious to German neighbors who don't even notice such "ventures" any more.

Now that's no rational reason to go and randomly kill as many of the culture as possible. Nevertheless resentment is just around the corner from disgust and from there it's hardly more than a step to hatred. The ultimately fertile ground for radicalism and we don't need to go Godwinning to find not so distant examples in own (figuratively speaking) history. Any snake oil salesman looking for fertile ground to plant his product (read ideology) will be over the moon at finding such ready conditions.

Even where it's by now pretty much established that the Munich shooter wasn't holding any ideology of political or religious nature or of both, his mental anguish clearly arose out of a similar conundrum, eventually leading to deterioration of upstairs health.

Not confined to Muslims at all (once again), the shooter of Winnenden had the same identity problems and was German to the core. A kid as well, like the one in Erfurt, Sandy Hook and those of Columbine.

As to Arabs, Iranians, Turks and others all looking down upon each other, plenty of reasons for that to be found in history alone. Recent and longer ago. Arabs usurping Persian sovereignty 1400 years ago, Seljuks usurping that of both, European powers playing them all against each other.

Endless list.

Edit: in the last paragraph of #215 I was referring to the knife artist in Reutlingen. My bad, different thread.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Eamon de Valera for Ireland. During the Second World War he basically ran the country.
Click to expand...

I would not really call that an Authoritarian state. It was a sate of emergency, a world war. But it still existed within Irish democracy.
 
Given that he targeted Turks among others I suspect this was a nonspecific shooting. He shot whoever was there.

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thought. With our thoughts we make the world.
 
They've meanwhile detained a 16 year old "friend" of his on account of the kid having had advance knowledge of the perp's intentions and not reporting them. In Germany that is at least a misdemeanour's and can be, depending on gravity of crime then committed, be a crime of itself.

Appears that the kid went to the police of his own accord but there entangled himself in contradictory statements.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
News happens, a new story happens and takes over the front pages. .
Click to expand...

Plus, there seems to be a new incident of refugees and asylum seekers attacking someone in Europe every day. Nice is a distant memory by now, Wurzberg is forgotten. Munich shall be replaced by the asylum seeker who detonated a bomb in Germany, etc, etc.
 
Chagos said:
They've meanwhile detained a 16 year old "friend" of his on account of the kid having had advance knowledge of the perp's intentions and not reporting them. In Germany that is at least a misdemeanour's and can be, depending on gravity of crime then committed, be a crime of itself.

Appears that the kid went to the police of his own accord but there entangled himself in contradictory statements.
Click to expand...
Heard he's been released again on account of the judge refusing to sign the arrest warrant. That doesn't mean charges dropped, just that no reason seen for incarceration during investigation.

Investigation into his conduct continues.
 
truthatallcost said:
Plus, there seems to be a new incident of refugees and asylum seekers attacking someone in Europe every day. Nice is a distant memory by now, Wurzberg is forgotten. Munich shall be replaced by the asylum seeker who detonated a bomb in Germany, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
Munich was neither about an asylum seeker nor about a refugee.

Neither was Nice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom