UK EU referendum [W:40:728]

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Harry Guerrilla said:

Uhhh what?
I'm not an American nationalist.

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No, but you act like them and support them it seems. Point is next to the US or China there is no nation that can compete and the only way to compete is join forces to compete and not to be bullied by others.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PeteEU said:

No, but you act like them and support them it seems. Point is next to the US or China there is no nation that can compete and the only way to compete is join forces to compete and not to be bullied by others.

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Just how do I act like them?

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Abbazorkzog said:

The only reason I do not think it would be a good idea for the UK to leave the EU; is it would essentially render the UK extinct. Scotland would leave, and would probably initiate a 'domino effect' of sorts causing Northern Ireland and Wales to follow shortly thereafter. The former would more than likely go back to Ireland, with nowhere else to go, or Scotland. This would leave England isolated on the international stage at a time of increasing Russian aggression and Islamic terrorism. England would probably also lose NATO and critical American ties. This is what my head tells me, anyway.

In my heart I am all for it, if they can convince Scotland to work with them and the Irish inside of a sort of 'British-Celtic Union' of sorts to compliment the EU, whilst persevering their cultural 'British Isles heartland' of sorts.

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Without a doubt an out vote would force another independence referendum in Scotland, on the basis, they want to stay in the EU. I suspect this time they would vote for independence. I don't sense a massive independence drive in Wales. As for Ulster, the Unionists would want to cling on to the Union as it's their only prospect of survival.

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Jack of Devon said:

Without a doubt an out vote would force another independence referendum in Scotland, on the basis, they want to stay in the EU. I suspect this time they would vote for independence. I don't sense a massive independence drive in Wales. As for Ulster, the Unionists would want to cling on to the Union as it's their only prospect of survival.

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Yup, I think a Scottish yes-to-independence vote would be pretty much guaranteed. NI is a tricky one, but a Brexit could serve to reignite the sectarian conflict as the pro-EU and pro-reunification side might well find common cause. Wales is generally anti-independence, but strip it of all the assistance that it has received from the EU over the years and they might consider independence within the EU as the lesser of two evils. Frankly, who has treated Wales better? Brussels or London?

Nick Cohen, not a writer I'm usually very enthusiastic about, makes a very interesting point in today's Observer when he talks about the degree of faith the 'out' campaign seems to have in the EU.

Of course, the EU will agree to give us everything we want, they say. Brussels will allow Britain to have all the advantages of being a member of the EU with none of the burdens. Presumably, no Eurosceptic has ever been through a nasty divorce. Obviously, it has never occurred to them that the EU will want to discourage other members from leaving by making Britain pay a price.

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The loudest noises in the out campaign (Farage, Redwood, Cash, Hannan, Carswell, Fox et al) are deluded, xenophobic, and reactionary little Englanders. There are a few seriously eurosceptic voices that are not, that make excellent points about the EU's democratic deficit and dictatorial instincts, especially in the economic realm, but they aren't the ones setting the agenda.

Those in favour of Bremain should be simultaneously horrified that the bunch of braying, white, old Tories are the ones painting the image of Britain in a terrible light to the rest of the entire world, but also slightly heartened to remember that British people generally are not as reactionary or as short-sighted and dogmatic as the richest, whitest and most conservative element of British society would have us believe.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PeteEU said:

No you dont like it is not your nation/you that is doing the whacking... that is what the anti-EU people want, which is why most come from the right wing with ties to the UK and US.

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Pete, the EU has benefited from most of the member states being part of NATO, peace in Europe has had a lot more to do with joint commitment to mutual defence but that is not to say increased business interests through the common market didn't play a major part.

As the BBC article I posted states - we haven't had foreign military forces marching in victory through these lands for centuries so our views of why we are part of the EU and what we want from the EU are naturally different. That doesn't mean UK concerns are not valid.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Infinite Chaos said:

Some really good points, yes the Labour Party was equally split with its own anti and pro parties - I remember Peter Shore making some very strong arguments about staying in or leaving but I also think the Labour Party tried to learn (under Blair) that perceived unity which the conservatives were famous for. Ironic now that the Conservatives own divisions are so public and have been for a few years.



There's a good article here charting some of the historical developments and economic change that has driven development in the UK since WW2. Ironic that the golden age did actually exist but it was also the end of empire and the beginning of UK turning it's back on trading partners in the empire.

I personally wonder whether we would ever get back those Australian and New Zealand markets which we once developed. I'd like to see the UK develop those markets again - as well as looking more seriously at China and India as export partners.

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Thanks for that. It is a really interesting article, with some wonderful old photographs. I don't get a sense here from UKIP and or the other "out"groups that we should replace trading with Europe by reforming economic relationships with the commonwealth. It hasn't really played any part of the debate. The commonwealth is largely viewed as a fairly meaningless concept now, although the Queen likes it, because it increases her number of subjects massively.

I do wonder if the right don't play it up, because even they have a sense of guilt about our imperialist history. Given how some commonwealth countries felt betrayed by the UK joining the EU, would they really want to strengthen trading relations with the UK now? Also, politically it is probably better to sell self determination, rather than any reliance on their old imperial masters.

Obviously China and India are huge markets and the conservative government is doing everything it can to suck up to the Chinese particularly.

Leaving aside the issues of the cost of EU membership and questions of sovereignty, the whole debate here is driven by immigration and an extremely worrying undercurrent of racism.

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Jack of Devon said:

Leaving aside the issues of the cost of EU membership and questions of sovereignty, the whole debate here is driven by immigration and an extremely worrying undercurrent of racism.

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Which is ridiculous since those European countries outside the EU (Norway, Switzerland) have a MUCH higher rate of net migration than does the UK. In the case of Norway, its immigration rate is higher than all EU members except for Cyprus and Luxembourg.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Infinite Chaos said:

Pete, the EU has benefited from most of the member states being part of NATO, peace in Europe has had a lot more to do with joint commitment to mutual defence but that is not to say increased business interests through the common market didn't play a major part.

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I disagree some what. Yes NATO membership and the threat of Soviet domination helped, but an alliance like NATO would not be possible if it was not for the cordial debate and trade between former enemies.. and that is where the EU/EEC and before it came in. Many wars in Europe was fought over land, and specifically what that land held... coal, food or whatever. This was done away with, as soon as the "battlefield" was leveled in business. No longer did France punish German goods by having them go through one border post that was only open once a week and so on.. because of the new civil discourse that happened within the EEC/EU. The common market, and even CAP helped Europe getting back on its feet after WW2 and then to challenge the US in the world market.. and that is where much of the anti-EU stuff comes from. You have American right wing nationalists trying to dismantle the EU as much as possible, and their UK allies still living in the Empire days, thinking that the UK could again become a financial superpower again... those two are dangerous allies since they control large portions of the media.

As the BBC article I posted states - we haven't had foreign military forces marching in victory through these lands for centuries so our views of why we are part of the EU and what we want from the EU are naturally different. That doesn't mean UK concerns are not valid.

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Never said the UKs concerns were not valid. Some of them are very valid.. like making the EU more effective and cutting "red tape".

My problem is that there is no real discussion going on.. it is half lies and fear mongering all the way without explanation.

Take the "red tape" and wanting powers back. While I sympathise with the idea, I totally am against the way the UK is going about it. First of all I expect them to explain what powers they want back from Europe. No one has done that yet. Do you want the national parliaments to have veto right over EU legislation? That would be.... idiotic. Picture the UK parliament having veto right over all NATO discisions..

And then there is "red tape".. most, if not all of the red tape that people hate actually originally came from the nation states. What the EU has done is to harmonize said red tape. Rarely is there new "red tape" issued, that has not been around in some form. Take agriculture. If there was no CAP or EU, then your farmers would still have to follow a lot of the red tape they follow today. But no one tells people this.. they live in the fantasy that it is the EU that has pushed said red tape on farmers, fishermen or what not.. it aint, it was mostly there before the EU.

Basically the debate in the UK and most of Europe is based on fear and not facts.. and THAT is a problem. Cameron saying that the Calais camps would move to Kent.. it is horse**** somewhat and fearmongering, and then yet it might actually happen. Point is no one knows how the French and EU will act. Will they allow these migrants to board boats and go to the UK? That certainly will mean that the camps will come in Kent.. And all of this depends on how much the UK right will piss of the rest of Europe with their fearmongering and borderline hate speech.

The main thing in the discussion at the moment is migrant and denying them access to "benefits" in the UK. No where in the discussion is the sane people saying the fact, that these migrants actually pay for not only their own "benefits" but also for the British people on benefits. Why is that? And no where in the discussion is anyone pointing out that what Cameron and the Tories are asking for is, people pay taxes in the UK to pay for healthcare and other stuff, but not being allowed to access said things... talk about taxing without representation or whatever the phrase is. Basically what Cameron is asking for, is that you pay car insurance or health insurance for 4 years but in that period are not allowed to claim anything if something happens... I mean wtf?

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:

Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

Economically, the UK will be royally effed if it leaves the EU: it will still need to abide by all those regulations that form the backbone of the 'out' argument, otherwise it will not be able to trade with the EU. The global corporations will leave, so goodbye Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tata, and tens of thousands of jobs, welcome home tens of thousands of expats who no longer qualify to work and/or remain in EU countries.

The idea that leaving the EU will result in the repatriation of democratic powers to the British people is a sad joke when the corporately-owned Tory government has no interest in seeing any such thing as democracy - witness their electoral gerrymandering, hostility to devolution and sad, electioneering lies about decentralisation and the creation of a 'Northern Powerhouse'. Funny how George Osborne hasn't mentioned that since the election, isn't it?

I hate much about the EU - the Christian capitalists' club - and hope to see Schäuble, Dijsselbloem, Merkel and the bunch kicked hard in the nads, but my dislike how the EU is currently operating doesn't make me want to ditch it, but want to change it. It certainly doesn't drive me into the arms of crypto-fascists, ethnic nationalists and corporatist libertarians.

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Leave obviously. Your last paragraph must be a contender for the 1916, hotly contested 'Drivel' Prize. Good luck!

It is NATO (thank you USA) that has ensured peace in Europe. The misconceived anti-democratic corrupt heap of steaming ordure that is the EU contributed nothing. Instead it has stirred up fear and loathing between the nations of my beloved Europe.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Abbazorkzog said:

The only reason I do not think it would be a good idea for the UK to leave the EU; is it would essentially render the UK extinct. Scotland would leave, and would probably initiate a 'domino effect' of sorts causing Northern Ireland and Wales to follow shortly thereafter. The former would more than likely go back to Ireland, with nowhere else to go, or Scotland. This would leave England isolated on the international stage at a time of increasing Russian aggression and Islamic terrorism. England would probably also lose NATO and critical American ties. This is what my head tells me, anyway.

In my heart I am all for it, if they can convince Scotland to work with them and the Irish inside of a sort of 'British-Celtic Union' of sorts to compliment the EU, whilst persevering their cultural 'British Isles heartland' of sorts.

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The Act of Union - which united England and Scotland has long outlived its usefulness. Separation would permit Scots to grow out of their whining spoilt teen-ager mode and same England a load of money and the risk of another socialist government. England would remain a key member of NATO; Scotland might even join. Why on earth would England be 'isolated' on the international stage?

I really hope the SNP win and Scotland becomes independent next time round. And there will be another referendum - much truth in the 'neverendum' joke.

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:

Yup, I think a Scottish yes-to-independence vote would be pretty much guaranteed. NI is a tricky one, but a Brexit could serve to reignite the sectarian conflict as the pro-EU and pro-reunification side might well find common cause. Wales is generally anti-independence, but strip it of all the assistance that it has received from the EU over the years and they might consider independence within the EU as the lesser of two evils. Frankly, who has treated Wales better? Brussels or London?

Nick Cohen, not a writer I'm usually very enthusiastic about, makes a very interesting point in today's Observer when he talks about the degree of faith the 'out' campaign seems to have in the EU.



The loudest noises in the out campaign (Farage, Redwood, Cash, Hannan, Carswell, Fox et al) are deluded, xenophobic, and reactionary little Englanders. There are a few seriously eurosceptic voices that are not, that make excellent points about the EU's democratic deficit and dictatorial instincts, especially in the economic realm, but they aren't the ones setting the agenda.

Those in favour of Bremain should be simultaneously horrified that the bunch of braying, white, old Tories are the ones painting the image of Britain in a terrible light to the rest of the entire world, but also slightly heartened to remember that British people generally are not as reactionary or as short-sighted and dogmatic as the richest, whitest and most conservative element of British society would have us believe.

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I couldn't have put it better myself

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The 'stay' campaigners are fond of saying that to leave the EU would be 'a leap into the unknown'. No, the opposite; it would be the return of Britain to self-government and its proper historical position as an independent nation state - after two nightmare decades as a member of the EU. (The EU was founded on 1 November 1993.)

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Sweden said:

Leave obviously. Your last paragraph must be a contender for the 1916, hotly contested 'Drivel' Prize.

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I'll let you know when the semi-literate ramblings of a forum noob mean more to me than a loose stool. Till then...

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:

Yup, I think a Scottish yes-to-independence vote would be pretty much guaranteed. NI is a tricky one, but a Brexit could serve to reignite the sectarian conflict as the pro-EU and pro-reunification side might well find common cause. Wales is generally anti-independence, but strip it of all the assistance that it has received from the EU over the years and they might consider independence within the EU as the lesser of two evils. Frankly, who has treated Wales better? Brussels or London?

Nick Cohen, not a writer I'm usually very enthusiastic about, makes a very interesting point in today's Observer when he talks about the degree of faith the 'out' campaign seems to have in the EU.



The loudest noises in the out campaign (Farage, Redwood, Cash, Hannan, Carswell, Fox et al) are deluded, xenophobic, and reactionary little Englanders. There are a few seriously eurosceptic voices that are not, that make excellent points about the EU's democratic deficit and dictatorial instincts, especially in the economic realm, but they aren't the ones setting the agenda.

Those in favour of Bremain should be simultaneously horrified that the bunch of braying, white, old Tories are the ones painting the image of Britain in a terrible light to the rest of the entire world, but also slightly heartened to remember that British people generally are not as reactionary or as short-sighted and dogmatic as the richest, whitest and most conservative element of British society would have us believe.

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So Andalublue am I also a Little Englander? I was born in one European country am a citizen of two others and was educated for several years in a forth. I have lived in three others making seven in all. I actually love the peoples of Europe, which is more than can be said of the Euocracy who seek to rule them through subterfuge and deceit.

I find your blend of arrogance and ignorance very unattactive. But needs must - I will continue to read your insult-ridden posts while holding my nose (metaphorically).

re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Moderator's Warning:

EU UK Referendum - leave or stay? That's the topic here. Let's just focus on that, stop the baiting and leave the personal comments aside please.

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sweden said:

The 'stay' campaigners are fond of saying that to leave the EU would be 'a leap into the unknown'. No, the opposite; it would be the return of Britain to self-government and its proper historical position as an independent nation state - after two nightmare decades as a member of the EU. (The EU was founded on 1 November 1993.)

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"Britain" is not a nation state and never was; there are three nations in Britain, the dominant English, the Scottish, and the Welsh. The English want to leave the European Union because the Tories from the south who run the country cannot have it all their own way with the Europeans as they do with the English in the "Northern Powerhouse", the Scots, and the Welsh. They are driven by a sense of xenophobic superiority over other Europeans and do absolutely nothing but bellyache about having to honor human rights, non-discriminatory work practices, and European values. They are a drag on continued cooperation of EU states and further closeness of its people. Let them go. The Scottish know they are welcome to remain as a proud European nation prepared to continue its full membership of a Union with a bright future and prosperous destiny.

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sweden said:

So Andalublue am I also a Little Englander? I was born in one European country am a citizen of two others and was educated for several years in a forth. I have lived in three others making seven in all. I actually love the peoples of Europe, which is more than can be said of the Euocracy who seek to rule them through subterfuge and deceit.

I find your blend of arrogance and ignorance very unattactive. But needs must - I will continue to read your insult-ridden posts while holding my nose (metaphorically).

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I don't know you from Adam. I certainly don't detect that you necessarily have the best interests of the UK and the British people at heart. Why should you? You're not British.

What the Brexit crowd seem unable to get their heads around is that you can be deeply, deeply EUrosceptic, as am I, while realising that no good will come of fracturing the continent once again into selfish, barely sustainable, nation states, each with their own agenda and seeing cooperation and concerted action as weakness and fundamentally anti-democratic.

There's an awful lot about the EU that is anti-democratic, but its fundamental existence isn't one of those things. There's also a huge amount that is undemocratic about the UK - its unelected second chamber with built-in Tory majority; its archaic and unrepresentative electoral system; its dynastic head-of-state; its unequal and discriminatory budget allocations that always favour the government of the day's heartland. The Brexit crowd would prefer us to ignore the UK's democratic deficit and instead only focus on the problems of the EU. That's demagoguery, in my book.

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Heinrich said:

"Britain" is not a nation state and never was; there are three nations in Britain, the dominant English, the Scottish, and the Welsh.

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You seem to have forgotten the Northern Irish.

The Scottish know they are welcome to remain as a proud European nation prepared to continue its full membership of a Union with a bright future and prosperous destiny.

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Not really true. Barroso let the Scots know in no uncertain terms during the independence referendum debate that there is no automatic right to remain for a country declaring independence. Things may be different if the UK leaves the EU, and the Scots vote to secede and remain in the EU, but no one has ever addressed that hypothetical situation. It's terra incognita as of now.

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:

You seem to have forgotten the Northern Irish.

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North Ireland is not part of Britain. There is no Northern Irish nation. The Irish are a nation of course but they are a seperate member state of the European Union.

Andalublue said:

Not really true. Barroso let the Scots know in no uncertain terms during the independence referendum debate that there is no automatic right to remain for a country declaring independence. Things may be different if the UK leaves the EU, and the Scots vote to secede and remain in the EU, but no one has ever addressed that hypothetical situation. It's terra incognita as of now.

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Barroso was mistaken and only gave his opinion because it was solicited by one of his bosses, the English Tory David Cameron who was attempting to frighten the European-minded Scots that their membership of the EU would be in peril if they voted for independence from England. Ironically, having just about kept Scotland in the UK on the promise of continued membership of the European Union, they are now planning on dragging the Scots out of the EU. What a shower of two-faced mendacious blackguards they are. Good riddance!

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Heinrich said:

North Ireland is not part of Britain.

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No, but it is definitely a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There is no Northern Irish nation.

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That depends on how you define a nation. They are no less a nation than England or Wales.

The Irish are a nation of course but they are a separate member state of the European Union.

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The Republic of Ireland has never exercised sovereignty over the Six Counties, no matter how much some of us might have wished that they had. Northern Ireland is a separate country. For now.

Barroso was mistaken and only gave his opinion because it was solicited by one of his bosses, the English Tory David Cameron who was attempting to frighten the European-minded Scots that their membership of the EU would be in peril if they voted for independence from England.

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No one has subsequently retracted that opinion or offered an alternative ruling. Until they do we must assume that Juncker, Merkel and the Brussels bunch agree with Barroso's assessment. What evidence are you putting up to support your claim that he was mistaken?

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PeteEU said:

I disagree some what. Yes NATO membership and the threat of Soviet domination helped, but an alliance like NATO would not be possible if it was not for the cordial debate and trade between former enemies.. and that is where the EU/EEC and before it came in. Many wars in Europe was fought over land, and specifically what that land held... coal, food or whatever. This was done away with, as soon as the "battlefield" was leveled in business. No longer did France punish German goods by having them go through one border post that was only open once a week and so on.. because of the new civil discourse that happened within the EEC/EU.

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And a lot of that discourse wouldn't have happened without the umbrella of NATO. Joint military allegiances support the development of civilian allegiances.

PeteEU said:

You have American right wing nationalists trying to dismantle the EU as much as possible, and their UK allies still living in the Empire days, thinking that the UK could again become a financial superpower again... those two are dangerous allies since they control large portions of the media.

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Worth discussing but I feel this isn't the thread for that.

PeteEU said:

~ My problem is that there is no real discussion going on.. it is half lies and fear mongering all the way without explanation.

Take the "red tape" and wanting powers back. While I sympathise with the idea, I totally am against the way the UK is going about it. First of all I expect them to explain what powers they want back from Europe. No one has done that yet. Do you want the national parliaments to have veto right over EU legislation? That would be.... idiotic. Picture the UK parliament having veto right over all NATO discisions..

And then there is "red tape".. most, if not all of the red tape that people hate actually originally came from the nation states. What the EU has done is to harmonize said red tape. Rarely is there new "red tape" issued, that has not been around in some form. Take agriculture. If there was no CAP or EU, then your farmers would still have to follow a lot of the red tape they follow today. But no one tells people this.. they live in the fantasy that it is the EU that has pushed said red tape on farmers, fishermen or what not.. it aint, it was mostly there before the EU.

Basically the debate in the UK and most of Europe is based on fear and not facts.. ~ Basically what Cameron is asking for, is that you pay car insurance or health insurance for 4 years but in that period are not allowed to claim anything if something happens... I mean wtf?

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You've often said in the past that the powers are already there and that Cameron's position was an empty one - but then why have there been major splits in Europe about powers that already exist? You talked about the migrant and benefits thing before saying it was in the rules but your end sentence shows that there is something that the EU has to sort out.

Basically, if Cameron's 4 requests were a pile of hot air - why have EU leaders discussed them / objected to them / supported them since they were announced? If the requests were meaningless - wouldn't other leaders have said so and if they haven't - why not?

Jack of Devon said:

Thanks for that. It is a really interesting article, with some wonderful old photographs. I don't get a sense here from UKIP and or the other "out"groups that we should replace trading with Europe by reforming economic relationships with the commonwealth.

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To be fair to Farage, he has often mentioned this. UKIP the party may have attracted some of the worst of political supporters who want out at any cost and have no thought to consequences but Farage has spoken a lot about reactivating the ties with the commonwealth. Trouble is the biggest commonwealth economies have all made their own links to other nations and we lost their trust a while ago. Canada looks to the US; Australia has benefitted hugely from working with China and India is developing wider links of its own.
We'd also have to rebuild some form of manufacturing to develop what these countries may want - they trade very well with Germany because of German manufacturing reputation.

Jack of Devon said:

the whole debate here is driven by immigration and an extremely worrying undercurrent of racism.

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Sadly true.

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Andalublue said:

No, but it is definitely a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

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"and Northern Ireland", yes.

Andalublue said:

That depends on how you define a nation. They are no less a nation than England or Wales.

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Hardly; the people of North Ireland are Irish, part of the Irish nation. Everyone knows this.

Andalublue said:

The Republic of Ireland has never exercised sovereignty over the Six Counties, no matter how much some of us might have wished that they had.

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"never" goes back a long time but the Republic of Ireland has existed only since 1949. It is a political entity, not one that includes all the Irish people because the English supported the Protestant sectarian Orangemen in having their own political statelet. Do not confuse national identity with political borders.

Andalublue said:

Northern Ireland is a separate country. For now.

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"Northern Ireland" is not a country.

Andalublue said:

No one has subsequently retracted that opinion or offered an alternative ruling.

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Because it is neither here nor there, never was.

Andalublue said:

Until they do we must assume that Juncker, Merkel and the Brussels bunch agree with Barroso's assessment.

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The has-been's opinion is the furthest thing from their minds.

Andalublue said:

What evidence are you putting up to support your claim that he was mistaken?

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There is no mechanism in the treaties which govern the European Union for stripping citizens of their EU membership. Sovereign member states may secede but when the Scottish were considering independence from England, there was never an intention for them to leave the EU.

I feel a bit sorry for the hundreds of thousands of English old age pensioners who have moved to Spain and because of Britain's EU membership they were automatically granted right of residence and access to free social services, health care, and heavily subsidized medicines as well as the low cost of living in a beautiful climate. I wonder if Spain will allow them to stay with these privileges out of compassion or will they have to go home and give up the good life for a fresh start in Tory England.

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Andalublue said:

I don't know you from Adam. I certainly don't detect that you necessarily have the best interests of the UK and the British people at heart. Why should you? You're not British.

What the Brexit crowd seem unable to get their heads around is that you can be deeply, deeply EUrosceptic, as am I, while realising that no good will come of fracturing the continent once again into selfish, barely sustainable, nation states, each with their own agenda and seeing cooperation and concerted action as weakness and fundamentally anti-democratic.

There's an awful lot about the EU that is anti-democratic, but its fundamental existence isn't one of those things. There's also a huge amount that is undemocratic about the UK - its unelected second chamber with built-in Tory majority; its archaic and unrepresentative electoral system; its dynastic head-of-state; its unequal and discriminatory budget allocations that always favour the government of the day's heartland. The Brexit crowd would prefer us to ignore the UK's democratic deficit and instead only focus on the problems of the EU. That's demagoguery, in my book.

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I am in fact a Brit/Swede dual national. And you? As I have lived abroad for less than 15 years I may vote in the referendum.

No, wrong again. There is no Conservative majority in the House of Lords. Labour (213) and Lib Dem (109) can and do outvote Conservatives (250).

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Infinite Chaos said:

And a lot of that discourse wouldn't have happened without the umbrella of NATO. Joint military allegiances support the development of civilian allegiances.

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NATOs civilian "allegiances" is an Europe chairman of NATO... that is it. NATO has been and always will be an American military organisation with European members.

You've often said in the past that the powers are already there and that Cameron's position was an empty one - but then why have there been major splits in Europe about powers that already exist? You talked about the migrant and benefits thing before saying it was in the rules but your end sentence shows that there is something that the EU has to sort out.

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Again no the EU is not sorting it out, as the EU does not do that. The individual member nations are in talks to change the rules in the EU.. big difference. And they are only doing it, because Cameron is threatening to leave the EU.

Basically, if Cameron's 4 requests were a pile of hot air - why have EU leaders discussed them / objected to them / supported them since they were announced? If the requests were meaningless - wouldn't other leaders have said so and if they haven't - why not?

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Okay lets look at those points.

Point 1. Protection for non-Euro Countries. It is a load of hot air, because what he wants is assurances that the City of London will not get imposed rules and regulations from Brussels on banking and financial companies.

Point 2. Competitiveness. He wants less regulation.. well duh, that has been EU policy for the last 10 years. It is political speak nothing more nothing less. He is using this to lessen the collective regulations that we all agreed on but that the Tories dont like because it means that the UK cant discriminate against others like it did in the old days. It is hilarious to hear the Brits complain about "Brussels bureaucracy" when you look at the actual facts. How many bureaucrats do you think there are in the EU? About 22k last I looked, and they run an economy of 400 million people. The UK internal revenue service has 96+k people working for them.. who is exactly more bureaucratic?

Point 3. Ever closer union crap. He is using this phrase, which was set out in the original Treaty of Rome as far as I can remember, to promote an idea that the EU is moving towards a super state and that the UK does not want to be part of it. Problem is, that this is not what the phrase meant and he knows it. It meant a closer economic union.. towards a common market (done) and a common currency (done).. There is nothing in any treaty that states a social nor political nor military union of any sorts. But that does of course not stop him and Faragage to promote this idiotic view.

Point 4. Migration.. this is what he is really after.. the above is just hot air. He wants to be able to discriminate against non Brits.. which is a slippery slope to start on. Migrants must have to contribute for 4 years before qualifying for in-work benefits or social housing. What I would like to know is how many migrants actually get in-work benefits and social housing.. got any stats on that? Not discussed much is it? Odd no?

And then there is "ending the practice of sending child benefits overseas." Easy.. the child has to live in the UK.. problem solved.

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sweden said:

I am in fact a Brit/Swede dual national. And you? As I have lived abroad for less than 15 years I may vote in the referendum.

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I shall certainly be voting.

No, wrong again. There is no Conservative majority in the House of Lords. Labour (213) and Lib Dem (109) can and do outvote Conservatives (250).

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I didn't say it was an absolute majority. I perhaps should have said "a built-in Tory plurality". None of which diverts from the point that it is not a democratic institution, just as the monarchy and the electoral systems are not remotely examples of democratic best practice.