"Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery[W:30]

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan.Ashers Baking Company, based in County Antrim, was taken to court by gay rights activist Gareth Lee.
A Belfast judge said, as a business, Ashers was not exempt from discrimination law. Link.

Click to expand...

Where do you stand on this case? Gareth Lee could have gone elsewhere for his cake, could have baked his own cake - he could even have piped his own message on after leaving the shop but does this diminish the case against the bakery?

My first thoughts were a company should have a right to deny services or products but then I also remember the "no Blacks, no Irish and no Dogs" signs of the 50's in bed and breakfast establishments that were rightly outlawed. Personally I don't think it's as clear cut as the B&B cases of the 60's but I do come down on the law treating all such cases equally.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Infinite Chaos said:

Where do you stand on this case? Gareth Lee could have gone elsewhere for his cake, could have baked his own cake - he could even have piped his own message on after leaving the shop but does this diminish the case against the bakery?

My first thoughts were a company should have a right to deny services or products but then I also remember the "no Blacks, no Irish and no Dogs" signs of the 50's in bed and breakfast establishments that were rightly outlawed. Personally I don't think it's as clear cut as the B&B cases of the 60's but I do come down on the law treating all such cases equally.

Click to expand...

In special situations, maybe it is okay to use coercion to persuade people to be less racist. That might have been the case in the 50's and 60's with the Blacks and possibly the Irish in your country. We are not in such an in extremis situation here. I think it is absolutely terrible to allow the government to interfere with conscientiously objecting persons. We did not make them fight and we should not make them assist in pagan rights.

And the gays that demand it are bigots of the worst kind in my book. They are becoming the problem by using the government to interfere with the basic rights of perfectly harmless citizens.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Infinite Chaos said:

Where do you stand on this case? Gareth Lee could have gone elsewhere for his cake, could have baked his own cake - he could even have piped his own message on after leaving the shop but does this diminish the case against the bakery?

My first thoughts were a company should have a right to deny services or products but then I also remember the "no Blacks, no Irish and no Dogs" signs of the 50's in bed and breakfast establishments that were rightly outlawed. Personally I don't think it's as clear cut as the B&B cases of the 60's but I do come down on the law treating all such cases equally.

Click to expand...

I stand where I always stood on this issue. Businesses should have the right to do business exactly how they wish to but, in doing so they have no right to be protected from any lawful consequences of doing so. The exception to this is if they are in any way carrying out business in any form under the umbrella of any government organisation in which case they either serve or give up the government connection.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

I think the judge is a moron. Can they appeal?

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Infinite Chaos said:

Where do you stand on this case? Gareth Lee could have gone elsewhere for his cake, could have baked his own cake - he could even have piped his own message on after leaving the shop but does this diminish the case against the bakery?

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely.

Forcing people (and that means anybody- business owners, poets, and journalists) to write something (and that means commercial material as well) against their will is contrary to any and all democratic principals.

So, I should not be able to force the black print shop owner to customize material displaying the CSA battleflag and detailing confedrate victories for me. Neither should a gay person be allowed to force someone else to write anything.

Maybe the next demand will be that a Catholic print protestant unionist militia material or that a protestant take and order to custom print IRA leaflets.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

That was their appeal. The judge applied the law. They advertised a service, then refused to provide it. They make halloween cakes for pagan celebrations, so their religiosity is selective. They're a commercial enterprise, not a religious organisation. The judge is dead right.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Here's the link to the BBC article 'Gay cake' row in Northern Ireland: Q&A - BBC News

The bakers were at pains throughout that it was the message on the cake they had a problem with not the customer. That seems eminently reasonable. In the bad old days of "No Irish" etc, the seller had a problem with the customer and that's different. No-one is suggesting that gay people shouldn't be able to go into bakery shops and buy bread and cakes, just like everyone else. But to ask a professional to employ their hard-earned skills to explicitly work in support of a cause they in conscience disagree with is a significant human rights violation, in my opinion. Everyone has the right to earn a living in accordance with their conscience, short of depriving others of their basic rights. I am an English teacher and there's no way I'll be willing to teach a hardline Muslim who wants to improve his English in order to proselytise.

The other issue is why on earth would you want a conservative Christian to bake you a cake celebrating gay marriage, once you discovered their views? Reasonable people would just go elsewhere and shake the dust from their shoes on the way out. Insisting on your legal rights in this situation is just mischievous. In this situation, I can't imagine a real-life situation where any real damage would be caused and it would be reasonable to sue. Gay rights activists should focus on hearts and minds - they won't change anyone's mind with the force of the law. Long-term this will be a Pyrrhic victory for them.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

That was their appeal. The judge applied the law. They advertised a service, then refused to provide it. They make halloween cakes for pagan celebrations, so their religiosity is selective. They're a commercial enterprise, not a religious organisation. The judge is dead right.

Click to expand...

Yep. You are one of the people that is a problem.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Anglo-scot said:

Here's the link to the BBC article 'Gay cake' row in Northern Ireland: Q&A - BBC News
......
The other issue is why on earth would you want a conservative Christian to bake you a cake celebrating gay marriage, once you discovered their views? ....

Click to expand...

Why would you? Because you are a malevolent bigot that wants to prove she has power.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

That was their appeal. The judge applied the law. They advertised a service, then refused to provide it. They make halloween cakes for pagan celebrations, so their religiosity is selective. They're a commercial enterprise, not a religious organisation. The judge is dead right.

Click to expand...

That raises the question, why shouldn't someone be allowed to be selective in their services? I'm asking a hypothetical, rather than a question about the law, because if we were just here to discuss on-the-books legislation, this wouldn't be much of a debate forum.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Trojan said:

That raises the question, why shouldn't someone be allowed to be selective in their services? I'm asking a hypothetical, rather than a question about the law, because if we were just here to discuss on-the-books legislation, this wouldn't be much of a debate forum.

Click to expand...

There's no good reason in my view. But in terms of British equality legislation, selectiveness in the provision of services would amount to discrimination when it comes to protected characteristics - race, sexuality, disability, gender. It's interesting that historically, in contract law, there is no right to force someone to perform a contract for personal services. Clearly there could be a financial remedy but the common law here respects the obvious difficulty with forcing someone to do something they really don't want to do. though the decision is under NI law, contract law across the UK probably in effect has now been amended by the latest judgment, pending any appeals.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

joG said:

Yep. You are one of the people that is a problem.

Click to expand...

I'm not a malevolent bigot hiding behind a religous figleaf.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

I'm not a malevolent bigot hiding behind a religous figleaf.

Click to expand...

Nope. The table has turned.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

joG said:

-- And the gays that demand it are bigots of the worst kind in my book --

Click to expand...

Anglo-scot said:

-- Reasonable people would just go elsewhere and shake the dust from their shoes on the way out. Insisting on your legal rights in this situation is just mischievous. --

Click to expand...

This is what I was curious about in reading the story, the guy in the case is a gay rights activist; now that's not to say he can't eat or buy cake and spend his money the same as everyone else but I think he wanted to force the situation.

Sometimes these things are done for ulterior motives or to raise awareness for something else.

Cryptic said:

-- Forcing people (and that means anybody- business owners, poets, and journalists) to write something (and that means commercial material as well) against their will is contrary to any and all democratic principals
--

Click to expand...

You raise an interesting point - in another sphere of life, a journalist who refuses to write something he believes contrary to his or her viewpoint would be regarded a hero.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

I'm not a malevolent bigot hiding behind a religous figleaf.

Click to expand...

Maybe introducing the notion of "bigotry" is taking us away from the central point of the thread. Can non-religious people see that conscientious objection to providing certain professional services is a sincere position?

If I asked for a service and the provider said he or she had a conscientious objection to my request, then I would stop right there and say - OK, I understand, I wouldn't want to make you violate your code of ethics. I might later have my own private resentments about them having a problem with my beliefs, but I'd move on. Live and let live.

It's only if I were hypersensitive or mischievous that I would then seek a legal avenue to force them to provide me with the service I had asked for, or compensate me for injured feelings.

In the case of gay marriage, there's been a sea change in the lifetime of most of us. I'm only 42 and I could never have foreseen gay marriage would have been legalised. Some people still alive are old enough to remember gay sex being illegal. Many gay people had no notion of wanting gay marriage till recently, and in fact took ideological positions against the institution of marriage per se. So can't gay people accept that there is a multiplicity of views on the various political issues relating to homosexuality, even with the gay community, and that you can't expect everyone to get with the latest gay rights programme, which moves on so rapidly?

Am I sounding unreasonable and bigoted?

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Infinite Chaos said:

This is what I was curious about in reading the story, the guy in the case is a gay rights activist; now that's not to say he can't eat or buy cake and spend his money the same as everyone else but I think he wanted to force the situation.

Sometimes these things are done for ulterior motives or to raise awareness for something else.



You raise an interesting point - in another sphere of life, a journalist who refuses to write something he believes contrary to his or her viewpoint would be regarded a hero.

Click to expand...

Good points. A law which will only ever be used by mischief-makers and ideologues is not a good law, in my opinion. I'd really like to see some sensible gay people say the same thing - they must be out there.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

That was their appeal. The judge applied the law. They advertised a service, then refused to provide it. They make halloween cakes for pagan celebrations, so their religiosity is selective. They're a commercial enterprise, not a religious organisation. The judge is dead right.

Click to expand...

Cool, so I can make a bakery write "**** Jesus", or maybe find a Jewish bakery and make them write " Nazis are Cool".

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Anglo-scot said:

Maybe introducing the notion of "bigotry" is taking us away from the central point of the thread. Can non-religious people see that conscientious objection to providing certain professional services is a sincere position?

If I asked for a service and the provider said he or she had a conscientious objection to my request, then I would stop right there and say - OK, I understand, I wouldn't want to make you violate your code of ethics. I might later have my own private resentments about them having a problem with my beliefs, but I'd move on. Live and let live.

It's only if I were hypersensitive or mischievous that I would then seek a legal avenue to force them to provide me with the service I had asked for, or compensate me for injured feelings.

In the case of gay marriage, there's been a sea change in the lifetime of most of us. I'm only 42 and I could never have foreseen gay marriage would have been legalised. Some people still alive are old enough to remember gay sex being illegal. Many gay people had no notion of wanting gay marriage till recently, and in fact took ideological positions against the institution of marriage per se. So can't gay people accept that there is a multiplicity of views on the various political issues relating to homosexuality, even with the gay community, and that you can't expect everyone to get with the latest gay rights programme, which moves on so rapidly?

Am I sounding unreasonable and bigoted?

Click to expand...

The bakery accepted his order, then declined to fill it and returned his money because he was gay. That was the finding of the court.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Ikari said:

Cool, so I can make a bakery write "**** Jesus", or maybe find a Jewish bakery and make them write " Nazis are Cool".

Click to expand...

I can see the issue would be more explosive in the USA where freedom of speech is generally wider than in the UK. So, applying the same logic, the nutcases who set up the Mohammed drawing competition in Texas could have asked a Muslim hotel owner if they could have put on their event in his hotel. If he had said no on conscience grounds, then they could make a compensation claim. If there were enough mischievous people out there, all sorts of commercial havoc could be let loose, with commercial rivals targeting each other, and ideologues pursuing vendettas.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

The bakery accepted his order, then declined to fill it and returned his money because he was gay. That was the finding of the court.

Click to expand...

Are you sure that's the finding? I checked the BBC article and it doesn't make this clear. If you have a link to anything else, please post. If the discrimination was purely because the customer was gay, then you're right, and the legal significance of the decision would be very limited. But Asher's case, as I understood it, was that the lady accepted the order, the man found out, and rejected in on the grounds of the message on the cake. Certainly the way that the lawyers and politicians were talking suggests far-reaching consequences, which only the latter scenario would entail.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Anglo-scot said:

Are you sure that's the finding? I checked the BBC article and it doesn't make this clear. If you have a link to anything else, please post. If the discrimination was purely because the customer was gay, then you're right, and the legal significance of the decision would be very limited. But Asher's case, as I understood it, was that the lady accepted the order, the man found out, and rejected in on the grounds of the message on the cake. Certainly the way that the lawyers and politicians were talking suggests far-reaching consequences, which only the latter scenario would entail.

Click to expand...

Here's a summary of the judgment : Court Delivers Judgment in Ashers Bakery Case
The reasoning is subtle. The judge found that there is an inevitable overlap between homosexual orientation and the issue of gay marriage in this case because it was likely that the bakery owners knew that the customer was gay and / or connected with gay people. As a result, there was discrimination against an individual on the grounds of homosexuality. The issue of the message on the cake was not something which could be treated in isolation.

It begs the question as to whether the ruling would have been different if the customer had rung up and explained the order and given no information as to whether he was gay or not, or connected with gay people. The inference is that it would have been different. To me, the logic is fuzzy : you'd have to suspect some connection with gay people from a person who made such an order. The idea that the bakers could have got off the hook by abruptly ending the call once they found out about the message on the cake seems strange. Also if a gay person made it clear he was gay first of all, and then ordered the cake, it seems like he would be in a better position. Also, it seems possible that there can be discrimination against a person on the grounds of homosexual orientation, even if the person is only connected with others who are homosexual. I predict a completely fresh approach by the appeal judges.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Manc Skipper said:

The bakery accepted his order, then declined to fill it and returned his money because he was gay. That was the finding of the court.

Click to expand...

That is false.

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Anglo-scot said:

Here's a summary of the judgment : Court Delivers Judgment in Ashers Bakery Case
The reasoning is subtle. The judge found that there is an inevitable overlap between homosexual orientation and the issue of gay marriage in this case because it was likely that the bakery owners knew that the customer was gay and / or connected with gay people. As a result, there was discrimination against an individual on the grounds of homosexuality. The issue of the message on the cake was not something which could be treated in isolation.

It begs the question as to whether the ruling would have been different if the customer had rung up and explained the order and given no information as to whether he was gay or not, or connected with gay people. The inference is that it would have been different. To me, the logic is fuzzy : you'd have to suspect some connection with gay people from a person who made such an order. The idea that the bakers could have got off the hook by abruptly ending the call once they found out about the message on the cake seems strange. Also if a gay person made it clear he was gay first of all, and then ordered the cake, it seems like he would be in a better position. Also, it seems possible that there can be discrimination against a person on the grounds of homosexual orientation, even if the person is only connected with others who are homosexual. I predict a completely fresh approach by the appeal judges.

Click to expand...

The plaintiff had wanted them to make a cake that included a slogan that said "support gay marriage" along with a picture of Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street, and the logo of the Queerspace organisation.

This decision opens the door for all sorts of slogans with which bakers, merchants, advertisers, etc. will just have to go along with or risk being sued. It seems very short-sighted.

'Gay cake' row in Northern Ireland: Q&A - BBC News

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Religion doesn't excuse you from discrimination laws , or any laws for that matter. Beliefs are not a free pass

Re: "Gay Cake": Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Trojan said:

That raises the question, why shouldn't someone be allowed to be selective in their services? I'm asking a hypothetical, rather than a question about the law, because if we were just here to discuss on-the-books legislation, this wouldn't be much of a debate forum.

Click to expand...

their business exists and profits thanks in part or in whole due to public infrastructure and regulation .