Crimea

What is the point of this thread? If its just a placeholder for news then it doesnt belong in a debate forum.

DA60 said:

Crimea votes to leave Ukraine in secession referendum and join Russia - World - CBC News

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Do you think the Russians are stupid? Since you don't seem to have a clue about the referendum...



The referendum ballot is in three languages; Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean Tater. The preamble states that it is a ballot for the 16 March 2014 referendum.

Ballot option #1 - Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Ballot option #2 - Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

After this is a warning that checking both options will result in a spoiled ballot.

---

Ballot option #1 is fairly straightforward. Ballot option #2 is not. Although it seems like an option to remain with Ukraine, the precise wording is deceiving as it does not specify which of the two versions of the 1992 Crimean constitution it is referring to. The original 1992 Crimean constitution granted Crimea independence and broad powers to chart its own course. This was amended a day later (second 1992 Crimean constitution) to acknowledge that Crimea is a sovereign part of Ukraine.

Deceptively, the referendum architects were purposefully not clarifying which 1992 constitution was being referred to in ballot option #2. In effect then, both ballot choices result in the same outcome... reunification with Russia.

According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine and article 3 of the 2012 Ukrainian law, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote. The Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there are no judicial possibilities, according to the legislation of Ukraine, to initiate such changes.

The Venice Commission declared that the referendum was illegal under both Ukrainian and Crimean Constitutions, and violated international standards and norms.

Simpleχity;1064131655 said:

Do you think the Russians are stupid? Since you don't seem to have a clue about the referendum...

The referendum ballot is in three languages; Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean Tater. The preamble states that it is a ballot for the 16 March 2014 referendum.

Ballot option #1 - Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Ballot option #2 - Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

After this is a warning that checking both options will result in a spoiled ballot.

---

Ballot option #1 is fairly straightforward. Ballot option #2 is not. Although it seems like an option to remain with Ukraine, the precise wording is deceiving as it does not specify which of the two versions of the 1992 Crimean constitution it is referring to. The original 1992 Crimean constitution granted Crimea independence and broad powers to chart its own course. This was amended a day later (second 1992 Crimean constitution) to acknowledge that Crimea is a sovereign part of Ukraine.

Deceptively, the referendum architects were purposefully not clarifying which 1992 constitution was being referred to in ballot option #2. In effect then, both ballot choices result in the same outcome... reunification with Russia.

According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine and article 3 of the 2012 Ukrainian law, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote. The Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there are no judicial possibilities, according to the legislation of Ukraine, to initiate such changes.

The Venice Commission declared that the referendum was illegal under both Ukrainian and Crimean Constitutions, and violated international standards and norms.

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The only one that as usual tries inject his bs into things is you.

The second part of option 2 which you even translated, clearly states "and for the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine" ...
...if you try to promote your butthurt idiocy, at least try harder next time.


Fallen.

PoS said:

What is the point of this thread? If its just a placeholder for news then it doesnt belong in a debate forum.

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It has exactly the same point and purpose as the other dozen or so threads started by him in the past few months... :shrug:

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

The only one that as usual tries inject his bs into things is you.

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They clearly didn't specify *which* 1992 constitution was being referred to, which makes all the difference.

Innocent omission? I think not.

No room for 'Nyet' in Ukraine's Crimea vote to join Russia

1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?

Gee, less ink and far more honest.

Simpleχity;1064131655 said:

Do you think the Russians are stupid? Since you don't seem to have a clue about the referendum...

The referendum ballot is in three languages; Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean Tater. The preamble states that it is a ballot for the 16 March 2014 referendum.

Ballot option #1 - Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Ballot option #2 - Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

After this is a warning that checking both options will result in a spoiled ballot.

---

Ballot option #1 is fairly straightforward. Ballot option #2 is not. Although it seems like an option to remain with Ukraine, the precise wording is deceiving as it does not specify which of the two versions of the 1992 Crimean constitution it is referring to. The original 1992 Crimean constitution granted Crimea independence and broad powers to chart its own course. This was amended a day later (second 1992 Crimean constitution) to acknowledge that Crimea is a sovereign part of Ukraine.

Deceptively, the referendum architects were purposefully not clarifying which 1992 constitution was being referred to in ballot option #2. In effect then, both ballot choices result in the same outcome... reunification with Russia.

According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine and article 3 of the 2012 Ukrainian law, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote. The Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there are no judicial possibilities, according to the legislation of Ukraine, to initiate such changes.

The Venice Commission declared that the referendum was illegal under both Ukrainian and Crimean Constitutions, and violated international standards and norms.

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1) I have ZERO problem with the ballot considering the time frame and the circumstances at that time.


2) And where exactly is the Venice commission's ruling on the legitimacy of the Ukrainian coup last year? I cannot find one.

If they did not rule....then they are hypocrites.

If they rule that it was illegal (which it clearly was) then the West are hypocrites for freaking out about the Crimea yet supporting an illegal coup at the same time.

And if they rule it was legal, then the commission is full of morons and/or political sycophants as it was CLEARLY illegal.

Simpleχity;1064131753 said:

They clearly didn't specify *which* 1992 constitution was being referred to, which makes all the difference.

Innocent omission? I think not.

No room for 'Nyet' in Ukraine's Crimea vote to join Russia

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Do you have a problem with reading comprehension: "and for the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine"
The rest is only what you (or the author of that piece you tried to push here) are injecting in the wording.

..and before you even try to push here something along the lines of "but it doesn't have the option... X" .
There is also no option of Crimea remaining autonomous but as part of a galactic alliance...

Simpleχity;1064131772 said:

1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?

Gee, less ink and far more honest.

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LOL you are really digging your own grave here.

Your first option based on the aspirations of Crimea's leaders foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but possibly with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia.
With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this first option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, I say. (oh wait... reminds me of some article you managed to produce few posts ago)

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this first option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, I say.

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Nope. Option #2 offers a slightly longer way to achieve option #1. The ultimate results however, are identical.

The Crimea ballot utilized an apt maxim: Never ask a question to which you don't already know the answer

Simpleχity;1064131902 said:

Nope. Option #2 offers a slightly longer way to achieve option #1. The ultimate results however, are identical.

The Crimea ballot utilized an apt maxim: Never ask a question to which you don't already know the answer

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WTF you're talking about?!?
What you've quoted was a response to your asinine options... i.e
1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

WTF you're talking about?!?
What you've quoted was a response to your asinine options... i.e
1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?

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Do try to keep up.

Simpleχity;1064131655 said:

Ballot option #1 - Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Ballot option #2 - Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

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Simpleχity;1064134218 said:

Do try to keep up.

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Do try getting better with reading comprehension, or simply get another pair of glasses:


You:

Simpleχity;1064131772 said:

1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?

Gee, less ink and far more honest.

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Me:

Fallenangel said:

LOL you are really digging your own grave here.

Your first option based on the aspirations of Crimea's leaders foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but possibly with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia.
With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this first option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, I say. (oh wait... reminds me of some article you managed to produce few posts ago)

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Do you still don't get it... or you simply don't want to get it?!?

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

Do try getting better with reading comprehension

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My exact thought regarding your sub-par comprehension skills. Try it again...

Simpleχity;1064131655 said:

Ballot option #1 - Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Ballot option #2 - Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

Click to expand...

Simpleχity;1064131902 said:

Nope. Option #2 offers a slightly longer way to achieve option #1. The ultimate results however, are identical.

The Crimea ballot utilized an apt maxim: Never ask a question to which you don't already know the answer

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Simpleχity;1064138175 said:

My exact thought regarding your sub-par comprehension skills. Try it again...

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...and you still don't get it.

Here is it again,
Your personal asinine poll options:
"1. Do you wish to remain a region of Ukraine?
2. Do you wish independence from Ukraine?
Gee, less ink and far more honest."

My response to your poll options:
"LOL you are really digging your own grave here.
Your first option based on the aspirations of Crimea's leaders foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but possibly with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia.
With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this first option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, I say. (oh wait... reminds me of some article you managed to produce few posts ago)"


If you still don't get it, I"ll try to explain it in a way even you should understand.
There is no poll option/s that you or such authors like the one you posted would not nitpick at, as any option can be injected with any kind of bs that you or anyone else wants - such as I did for example with your own "proposed poll options".



Fallen.

Crimea Vote Doesn't Offer 'No' Option For Joining Russia

Sunday's vote in Ukraine's Crimea is being officially billed as a chance for the peninsula's peoples to decide fairly and freely their future - but in fact there is no room on the ballot paper for voting "Nyet" to control by Russia. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Any mark in one of the boxes is regarded as a "Da" vote. Ballot papers will be regarded as spoiled if a voter fills in both boxes or indeed does not fill in either. "Even if it (the referendum) were legitimate, the two choices presented to Crimean voters offer them no option for leaving Russian control," wrote Keir Giles of the London-based Chatham House. "The restoration of this (1992) constitution would be a step towards notional independence under Russian control ... Those citizens who were content with Crimea remaining part of Ukraine on the same basis as it has been for the last 20 years do not have a voice in this referendum. There is no third option available."

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Simpleχity;1064140319 said:

Crimea Vote Doesn't Offer 'No' Option For Joining Russia

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Nailed it.

I was going to criticize the debate for using the ad hominem approach. It was getting circular, personal, was not leading anywhere, all the while Ukrainian Crimea was annexed illegally.

Simpleχity;1064140319 said:

Crimea Vote Doesn't Offer 'No' Option For Joining Russia

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Reposting exactly the same bs, which is even written by the same author ... yeap great strategy. /sarcasm

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

Reposting exactly the same bs, which is even written by the same author ... yeap great strategy. /sarcasm

Fallen.

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The subjective evaluation of a source is irrelevant to the fact that Ukrainian Crimea is illegally annexed by Russia.

DDD said:

The subjective evaluation of a source is irrelevant to the fact that Ukrainian Crimea is illegally annexed by Russia.

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Your subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

Your subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.

Fallen.

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The issue though is not me.

It is Ukrainian Crimea that is illegally annexed from Russia. Those above are the references.

DDD said:

The issue though is not me.

It is Ukrainian Crimea that is illegally annexed from Russia. Those above are the references.

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Who is talking about you?!?! I was responding to your post which can be seen below.

DDD said:

The subjective evaluation of a source is irrelevant to the fact that Ukrainian Crimea is illegally annexed by Russia.

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If you want I can change the wording of the response from:
Your subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.
to:
The subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.
The point still remains the same.

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

Who is talking about you?!?! I was responding to your post which can be seen below.

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Better.

Fallenangel said:

If you want I can change the wording of the response from:
Your subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.
to:
The subjective evaluation of my post is irrelevant to the debate regarding Crimea's referendum questions.
The point still remains the same.

Fallen.

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Better, again,

However, I do not see much questions regarding the illegal annexation of Ukrainian Crimea from Russia. Russia did illegally annexed Ukrainian Crimea and did so with an illegitimate referendum with a bogus questionnaire that let the voter inside Russia no matter what they voted for.

The references for such a statement can be found throughout this thread.

DDD said:

Better.



Better, again,

However, I do not see much questions regarding the illegal annexation of Ukrainian Crimea from Russia. Russia did illegally annexed Ukrainian Crimea and did so with an illegitimate referendum with a bogus questionnaire that let the voter inside Russia no matter what they voted for.

The references for such a statement can be found throughout this thread.

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The red - Please reread my discussion with Simpleχity in the previous few pages, I really can't be bothered to go through exactly the same debate again.

Fallen.

Fallenangel said:

The red - Please reread my discussion with Simpleχity in the previous few pages, I really can't be bothered to go through exactly the same debate again.

Fallen.

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I believe Simplexity is right and you are wrong. The outcome was pre-arranged for an illegal annexation of still Ukrainian Crimea from Russia.

DDD said:

I believe Simplexity is right and you are wrong. The outcome was pre-arranged for an illegal annexation of still Ukrainian Crimea from Russia.

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This totally ignores the fact that the circumstances in Kiev brought the situation in Crimea to a head in the first place.

Were the Russians behind that, too?