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Muslim Communities in Germany protesting against violence in the name of Islam

Considering the amount anti-gay crap going on in the Christian world, then does that dampen the "Christian" protests against ISIS also?

Do you remember last month when 2 gays were killed by the authorities in britain for being gay?

No? Are you sure?

Oh, maybe because that never happened. You know what did happen? Maybe 2 gays got married instead.
 
Most radical imams are street preachers without formal qualifications in the first place and terrorist cells form around hate preachers, while the majority of Muslims do not support Islamic extremism. A mosque in Grimhøjmoskeen in Belgium has been accused of radicalising local youths and at least 22 men from the area have joined ISIS in Syria. As a result, Belgian authorities initiated an investigation into a hate preacher teaching at the mosque, who could be deported if he is criminally charged. Speaking out against extremists is always challenging for any ethnic groups and it's not limited to British Muslims. Those Muslims in Belgium and Germany who demonstrated against IS are very courageous despite the fact that the anti-IS rallies only drew a few hundred participants, not thousands that organisers hoped. Anti-fascist demonstrations in the UK may draw several hundred supporters but the majority of white Britons would rather stay home than participating in anti-EDL rallies and confronting former BNP members. There is always a heavy police presence at those anti-extremist rallies, which is also a disincentive to speak out against extremists in public.
 
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I think it's fear. As long as things are rolling their way, these yahoos are secretly cheering the jihadists on. But now that they see people in the West finally getting their blood up and talking about a fight, they start worrying about getting the living snot beat out of them by a bunch of locals that doesn't much care what Muslim they go after. And suddenly they become very civic-minded and cooperative--regular Boy Scouts. Funny how a fastball right under the chin can make the batter a little easier to deal with.
 
Not impressed, still dislike Islam and it's practitioners.
 
But now that they see people in the West finally getting their blood up and talking about a fight, they start worrying about getting the living snot beat out of them by a bunch of locals that doesn't much care what Muslim they go after.


Which would of course make "the bunch of locals" hateful, backward, bigoted, disgusting, worthless pieces of crap. It's shocking really how much some lunatics sound and would act like the extremists in the ME they are so quick to condemn. They are just like them. Hateful, dumb pieces of crap.
 
Name one European country with large muslim population where said muslim population has a good press? Nowhere. Even in muslim countries muslims don't have a good press. What muslim country would you point to and say "well, sure there are some bad things but at least they've got these good things going for them and they're actually making tons of progress".

Well we and Albania are largely Muslim in Europe. What kind of a bad press do we have compared to other countries nearby?

In the past 3 years the arab spring was turned the islamic nationalism levels to unprecedented heights. The arab spring wasn't a democratic uprising or a wave of pro-democracy as we hoped it was 3 years ago. That was lie. The media who all said that the root of the protests in Egypt or the rioting and ofc, revolution in Libya, or the mass but undocumented protests in countries like Jordan or Yemen, they've all been not pro-democracy, but the embodiment of islamic nationalism. It's wrong to call it "nationalism" because islam is not a nation but lets let that slide.

Incompatible concepts cannot slide. Nationalism values the nation, religion values the religion. Both conflict for they attempt to value their stuff at the cost of the other.
 
This action day was less about a ralley, the most important point were the prayers and preachings in the 2000 mosques. Assuming 50 Muslims attended each mosque (and I have no idea about the average mosque attendance in Germany), that means 100.000 Muslims heard their imams preaching against ISIS and anti-Jewish violence that day.

The same occurred here as well. In order to stop recruiting of idiots to go and risk their lives in other country's favor some 20 higher ranking religious officials were arrested and are held in prison awaiting trial.

What happened next is very peculiar. There were posters for mass protests spread in key areas!

No organization claims responsibility to have put them. All imam's are in turn claiming the contrary that to protest about governmental counter-terrorist activities constitutes "haram" (i.e., sin).

It begs the question: Who put them?

Suspects may be third parties, speculatively speaking. It could be Serbian or Russian agents trying to portray Islamic extremism here so as to severe relationships with our European and US allies. It may be Arab extremists or their superb influence over religious Albanians themselves that did it. This may be due to them trying to provoke an action from EU and USA from such a protest against Albanians. The following reaction then in turn could be used to further their recruitment numbers, attempt to polarize positions, severe relationships, etc.

The worse we are off with EU and USA the more hungry rivals use opportunities to their favor. This may be either towards Russia/Serbia or towards further than Turkiye eastwards. So the situation is a bit complicated but under control.
 
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Do you remember last month when 2 gays were killed by the authorities in britain for being gay?

No? Are you sure?

Oh, maybe because that never happened. You know what did happen? Maybe 2 gays got married instead.

Who the hell said anything about gays being killed? If you want to go that way, Uganda., but I was talking about anti-gay rhetoric coming from Christians across the world. Hell it was not long ago the right wing held anti-gay pro Christian protests in France.
 
Whatever one calls them, they are growing exponentially.
And that diminishment cuts both ways.
How many of the '2000' anti-ISIS were "backyard Mosques"?



Most European Muslims want Sharia

Ingrid Carlqvist 17 December, 2013
Most European Muslims want sharia | Dispatch International

A majority of Muslims want sharia law to take precedence over the secular laws of their European host countries. This according to a new survey WZB Berlin Social Science Center based on interviews with Muslims in 6 countries including Sweden.
The survey ought to raise eyebrows among Western politicians say researchers.

Turkish and Moroccan immigrants to Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland and Sweden were asked three questions:

Is sharia is more important to you than the laws of the land you are living in? (Yes: 66%).
Do you think there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran that should be binding on all Muslims? (Yes: 75%).
Do you think Muslims ought to return to the ”Islams roots”? (Yes: 60%).


Those who answered yes to all questions were labeled ”consistent fundamentalists” – and they make up 44% of all Muslims covered by the survey. Fundamentalist attitudes are equally prevalent among younger and older Muslims.

According to the study (which was conducted in 2008, but not published until now), the situation is Worst in Austria. 73% of Austrian Muslims of Turkish and Moroccan descent consider sharia to be more important than secular laws, 70% think there is only one correct interpretation of the Koran and 76% want Muslims to return to their Islamic roots.
In total 55% of the Austrian Muslims covered in the survey answered yes to all three questions.

The author of the report, the Dutch sociologist Ruud Koopmans, says that the study reveals a Remarkably Similar picture as that presented in Other German studies, e.g., Muslime in Deutschland (Muslims in Germany) from 2007, which documented that 47% of German Muslims considered religious rules to be more important than democracy – the exact same percentage which the new study shows would prefer the laws of the Koran to German laws.

Equally frightening is study’s conclusion that there is a great deal of Muslim enmity towards other groups. 60% of the surveyed Muslims say that they refuse to have homosexual friends and 45% answer that one cannot trust Jews. Even here the Austrian Muslims stand out. 69% of them won’t accept homosexuals as friends and 63% say that Jews are not to be trusted. 66% claim that the West tries to destroy Islam.

For the sake of comparison, non-Muslim Europeans were questioned about their suspicion of Jews (8% said yes), homosexuals (10%), Muslims (21%). 1.4% harbored suspicions against all three groups.

As Koopmans sees it, Muslim fundamentalism is not ”an innocent form of strict religiosity.

Whereas about 1 in 5 indigenous Europeans may be deemed Islamophobes, the degree of anti-Western phobia among Muslims – for which there, strangely, is no name, but might labeled Occidentophobia [the Occident = the West] – is much higher: 54% believe that the Western world aims to wreck Islam.

”These results”, Koopmans continues, ”clearly Contradict what one often hears – that Islamic fundamentalism is a marginal phenomenon in Western Europe and that it is no different from the degree of fundamentalism among the Christian majority.
Both of these claims are obviously false as almost Half of the European Muslims want Muslims to return to Islam’s roots, think that there is only one interpretation of the Koran and that its laws are more important than secular laws. Among indigenous Christians, LESS than 1 in 25 can be characterized as a fundamentalist in this sense.

Koopmans continues:
”Both the extent of Islamic religious fundamentalism and its concomitants – homophobia, Anti-Semitism, and ’Occidentophobia’ – ought to cause serious uneasiness among politicians as well as Muslims civic leaders. Of course one cannot equate religious fundamentalism with a willingness to support or participate in religiously motivated violence...

Commenting on the study, the German paper Die Welt notes that the results cast serious doubt on the unbridled optimism professed by Europe’s multiculturalists, who assert that in time, Muslim fellow citizens will embrace the West’s liberal and democratic way of thinking. ”The study does not lend itself to simplistic conclusions”, writes Die Welt. ”But it must be realized: Democracies must watch out for those who consider free societies as something that must be vanquished.”

A growing number of European voices warn against the increasingly aggressive attempts by Islamic organizations like the OIC – with 57 Muslim countries – to pressure Western politicians to Criminalize all criticism of Islam.".."​

SHOVE your clownish emoticons

I see nothing wrong with controlling immigration to the degree it doesn't change the Culture of a Nation.
That is the cohesion that Makes the character OF a nation.

So you are in favor of 'Creeping Sharia', Cultural change by demographic Jihad.
Guilt from WWII is still prevalent.

I read the News. You? (necessarily ignore it to keep your pathetic politics)
Have ya Noticed what's happening in Europe, Scandinavia, Middle East, Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia?
But Hey, All Your Pathetic Islamist Apologism MIGHT make the world safer for Baha'i..... LOFL.

Okay, all I made were a few friendly remarks in your direction. You respond with hatred and attacks.

Obviously I gave you too much credit by assuming one can have a civilized, normal debate with you. Sad, really.
 
You are correct, I have an opinion and it's a strong one and you aware of it because you read the 3-4 threads I made about it. And my opinion is valid. It's rooted into a lot of activities that happen. And you are fully aware of all this because we talked about it and I explained my position with ample detail and I also made caveats about turks and persians and all that, and you know all this.

And again, I ask, where are the headlines? "tens of thousands of muslims prayed in solidarity with jews and christians who suffered under ISIS", etc.

Ever since the arab string started, it was hit and miss at the start but now, in the past few months especially, the news has been overwhelmingly bad in regards to muslims everywhere. And that's despite the best efforts to not have the news leak, including state authorities colluding in to censor the press about it.

Now a good thing happens, this rally, and where are the numbers? 1000 people rallied in front of a mosque, and the group that organized this claims that 2000 mosques will do prayers for jews and christians and all that. Ok. Where are the headlines about it? It would be a huge deal.

If I were a journalist who wanted to promote the benefits of islam in the west, as many are, why aren't they covering this? I'm guessing because it was a flop. It was something done for a stunt effect that came out short.

The German media was full of headlines about the event. Even federal president Gauck participated.

Why is the foreign media not reporting? My guess is that it wouldn't fly well with the prejudices of the hate-mongering anti-Muslim scum that's not only infesting this very board and its Europe section, but the general interwebs.
 
Who the hell said anything about gays being killed? If you want to go that way, Uganda., but I was talking about anti-gay rhetoric coming from Christians across the world. Hell it was not long ago the right wing held anti-gay pro Christian protests in France.

Yes, blame Uganda's anti-gay laws on christianity. It's like the legal branch of Uganda is under the control of the priesthood because we all know Uganda is a theocracy, not a republic.
Also, we all saw that John Oliver report and how it was an white americans' fault for it. It's almost as if the ugandans have no agency of their own and must do what the white man tells them.
Now that's a special kind of racism right there. Lets be honest internet denizens and not be racist and agree that the ugandans are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. Just like the EU and the US made their own decisions in response to the "kill the gays" law to cut foreign aid. Which is why it was retracted.

Secondly. If you remember back then, in France, it was that period where every week we had a new scandal in France. So maybe, I'm just guessing, maybe there was more than just homophobia fueling the protest. Maybe it was also anger at the current administration or maybe discontent. Maybe it was seen as a cheap point-scoring political move by the govt to gain support because it had only bad news everywhere else, especially on the economic front. You know, what Obama did once the polls showed that it's safe to stand up for gay marriage to score some points on social issues.

Also, France had a perfectly good marriage agreement for homosexuals that had almost everything you want in a marriage. It just wasn't called marriage.
 
The German media was full of headlines about the event. Even federal president Gauck participated.

Why is the foreign media not reporting? My guess is that it wouldn't fly well with the prejudices of the hate-mongering anti-Muslim scum that's not only infesting this very board and its Europe section, but the general interwebs.

Well, great, numbers please. How many were there? It's ok if you post a german news source.
 
Perhaps they will lead other Muslim communities by example, worldwide. Great news.
 
Yes, blame Uganda's anti-gay laws on christianity. It's like the legal branch of Uganda is under the control of the priesthood because we all know Uganda is a theocracy, not a republic.

LOL you are seriously saying that their laws have nothing to do with the American Evangelical influence and money being pumped into Uganda for a decade or more?

Also, we all saw that John Oliver report and how it was an white americans' fault for it. It's almost as if the ugandans have no agency of their own and must do what the white man tells them.

Seriously.. again, you are dismissing the influence the evangelical community.... talk about sticking your head into the sand.

Now that's a special kind of racism right there. Lets be honest internet denizens and not be racist and agree that the ugandans are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. Just like the EU and the US made their own decisions in response to the "kill the gays" law to cut foreign aid. Which is why it was retracted.

Wow did you just use the racism card to protect Christianity? Seriously? The very fact that the Ugandan government politicians who promoted this law are heavily linked to the Evangelical community in the US, who are virulent homophobes, shows this has nothing what so ever to do with race but religion. That Uganda is a Christian nation with very conservative Christian views, only again proves that the problem is homophobic Christian values. Even today in Christian countries across the world, radical Christian minorities are trying to roll back the clock on a century of decopling of religion from public life, and have tried to force through draconian laws and rules that would put us back in the stone age. In Spain the Conservative party main priority, thanks to its heavy links to the Catholic Church, was not the economic crisis, but to push forward a change in the abortion laws so that they would revert back to how they were under Franco..over 80% of the population is against it and despite having an absolute majority they have so far not managed to do it, because of rebellions within the party from moderates.

Point is, the Christian church is in many ways no better than Islam when it comes to many every day things. The only difference is we have put in place over the many decades a secular set of laws that dont take into account classic Christian laws.. this includes divorce, womens rights and so on.

Secondly. If you remember back then, in France, it was that period where every week we had a new scandal in France. So maybe, I'm just guessing, maybe there was more than just homophobia fueling the protest. Maybe it was also anger at the current administration or maybe discontent. Maybe it was seen as a cheap point-scoring political move by the govt to gain support because it had only bad news everywhere else, especially on the economic front. You know, what Obama did once the polls showed that it's safe to stand up for gay marriage to score some points on social issues.

So you deny that it had anything to do with Christianity? Maybe you should google it a bit and see who was at the head of the protests.. His title is Archbishop of Lyon.

Also, France had a perfectly good marriage agreement for homosexuals that had almost everything you want in a marriage. It just wasn't called marriage.

Yes and that is exactly what the right wing homophobes want to get rid off... oh and the Church is against it too.. as is the Islamic part of France.
 
LOL you are seriously saying that their laws have nothing to do with the American Evangelical influence and money being pumped into Uganda for a decade or more?

Seriously.. again, you are dismissing the influence the evangelical community.... talk about sticking your head into the sand.

Wow did you just use the racism card to protect Christianity? Seriously? The very fact that the Ugandan government politicians who promoted this law are heavily linked to the Evangelical community in the US, who are virulent homophobes, shows this has nothing what so ever to do with race but religion. That Uganda is a Christian nation with very conservative Christian views, only again proves that the problem is homophobic Christian values. Even today in Christian countries across the world, radical Christian minorities are trying to roll back the clock on a century of decopling of religion from public life, and have tried to force through draconian laws and rules that would put us back in the stone age. In Spain the Conservative party main priority, thanks to its heavy links to the Catholic Church, was not the economic crisis, but to push forward a change in the abortion laws so that they would revert back to how they were under Franco..over 80% of the population is against it and despite having an absolute majority they have so far not managed to do it, because of rebellions within the party from moderates.

Point is, the Christian church is in many ways no better than Islam when it comes to many every day things. The only difference is we have put in place over the many decades a secular set of laws that dont take into account classic Christian laws.. this includes divorce, womens rights and so on.

So you deny that it had anything to do with Christianity? Maybe you should google it a bit and see who was at the head of the protests.. His title is Archbishop of Lyon.

Yes and that is exactly what the right wing homophobes want to get rid off... oh and the Church is against it too.. as is the Islamic part of France.

Lets start from the bottom and work our way to the top.

I am not denying that the anti-gay protests in France had anything to do with Christianity. ofc they did. But I'm saying that maybe, you know, just maybe, there were also other motives for which people protested. People can protest something for multiple reasons. One action can be motivated by a pluarity of reasons. That's what I'm saying if it wasn't clear enough.

Nobody wants, as neither do I, christianity or any religion to have public power. I'm a firm secularist as you should know by now because we've been over this multiple times, Pete. We've talked multiple times in this forum and just like I remember a lot about you, I expect you do the same for me. But that's a sidenote. And because I am a firm secularist I don't want the church to have sway in anything that is to do with how the country is run for all the citizenry, because not all the citizenry is of X denomination of religion or even equally involved with a religion.
This is why I wrote this entire post a while ago:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/192890-problem-orthodox-churches-post-commie-countries.html
Where I attacked the Orthodox church in my country especially in regards to the political prostitution it does on a regular basis, every election cycle. And ofc, since we have presidential elections later this year, the political prostitution began a few months ago and ofc, will only get harder and harder as things go on with politicians going on church tours, well, one already did, but that's another issue. Anyway.

I am a firm secularist. And it would be lovely if in future discussions Pete, you would remember this. And stop strawmaning. We've talked sufficient times on these topics for us to understand where each other stands.

Another issue going back to the anti-gay protest in France. So aside from there being a plurality of motives for the existence of the protest, there is also another important thing to remember. Protests are legitimate democratic tools. That protest was non-violent, it was organized well enough, it was tense ofc, but it wasn't a riot. It was a protest. And you don't have to agree with what the protest is about. But that's the power and strength of free speech. We have to accept those who think differently and let them speak.



Now. Onto Uganda.

Did the american evangelists go and vote? Do they have a vote in Uganda? boy, I didn't know that. Well, that makes the ugandans completely innocent. They were under a foreign rule who imposed their agenda on the poor ugandan people who otherwise would never, ever in a million years, discriminate against homosexuals. It is because of white american evangelists.
I am not here to defend the Bible or whatever, Pete, I am here however to tell you that you're wrong. You, Pete, are trying to paint something into something else. And it will fly with lesser educated people but it won't fly with me. If the ugandan government would be in favor of human rights or try and defend civil liberties, they wouldn't have passed that law regardless of how many evangelicals would go there. Especially since they knew that if they did pass that, the US and the EU would punish them by cutting their aid. And they passed the law all-together. The justice system called it illegal however so that is what saved them.

The responsibility lies with the people who do the action. The ugandan govt made a law and passed it, they're responsible. They weren't duped. They weren't lied to. They weren't done anything to them to drastically change the position of the ugandan govt. The ugandan govt did what they wanted to do. If you keep insisting on taking away the responsability for that law from the ugandan govt and give it to other people, fine, do that, but then take away the powers as well. If the american evangelists are responsible, then from now on, Uganda belongs to the american evangelists because they have the power. if it is catholicism that did it, then Uganda from now on belongs to the Pope. Power and responsability go hand in hand in this case.
 
Okay, all I made were a few friendly remarks in your direction. You respond with hatred and attacks.

Obviously I gave you too much credit by assuming one can have a civilized, normal debate with you. Sad, really.
They looked kind of Mocking rather than friendly to me.
Implying my concern was, and even my take was unwarranted, perhaps paranoid/crazy.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post?
You did manage to Avoid the meat of what I posted though, as did PeteEU.
The poll was very consistent with other polls, as mentioned within.
 
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Which would of course make "the bunch of locals" hateful, backward, bigoted, disgusting, worthless pieces of crap. It's shocking really how much some lunatics sound and would act like the extremists in the ME they are so quick to condemn. They are just like them. Hateful, dumb pieces of crap.

Not a very kind way to talk about the Europeans who foolishly let these rancid curs into their countries, only to see them show their gratitude by trying to subvert their ancient cultures, while threatening and often engaging in all sorts of violence against anyone their religion teaches them not to tolerate.
 
I think it's really good if western muslims openly take a stand against group like ISIS.

You have to see things in perspective though. I don't start a big public protest every time a christmas Christian does something horrible. By demanding a reaction from them one would suggest them being connected in a way. This is ofcourse absurd in most cases, the people fighting ISIS and al Nusra are muslims too but somehow public view relates western muslims more to ISIS than to those fighting them.

I hope this spreads even if it is only to please the Europeans and so stops further polarisation. The next step which would be more than symbolic would be European muslims turning on salafists an wahabists, that's what we really need and what I think is slowly starting (it is starting over here anyway, we caught those jihadi nut cases because the muslim community helped, it would have been very difficult if they had not)

We have all sorts of problems with muslim integration but blaming all of them for ISIS is a little stupid.
 
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It would be nice if this sort of sentiment expressed by German Muslims was to spread to other countries. France, in particular, is having all kinds of difficulties with anti-Semitism expressed by French Muslims on a fairly regular basis.

This is happening, there has been the not in my name twitter hashtag which was used 50,000 times last week; there's now a muslim apologies hashtag sarcastically apologising for many of the inventions and developments which came from muslim scholars and scientists in history and then the video by imams against ISIS and the beheadings.

That said, protesting is one thing, joining and helping European police and security forces remains the most important thing. There were warnings when muslims first started heading off to Syria that darker forces were starting to subvert the movement and those willing to go. Now we have a very considerable threat which seems to have no end in sight and any action we take to help or enforce is twisted against us.

Complex times.
 
I am unaware of any such actions in the U.S.A. Maybe it that type of movement will spread world wide. It has promise.

Thanks for the post

Enjoy life

Thom Paine

Maybe they'll do more than protest. Maybe they'll take up arms and go kill the ISIS terrorists in the name of Islam. Maybe, but I won't hold my breath.
 
Maybe they'll do more than protest. Maybe they'll take up arms and go kill the ISIS terrorists in the name of Islam. Maybe, but I won't hold my breath.


Hope springs eternal. does it not ?

Have a great day Big A

Thom Paine
 
Maybe they'll do more than protest. Maybe they'll take up arms and go kill the ISIS terrorists in the name of Islam. Maybe, but I won't hold my breath.

Who do you think has been fighting them?
 
who foolishly let these rancid curs into their countries, only to see them show their gratitude by trying to subvert their ancient cultures, while threatening and often engaging in all sorts of violence against anyone their religion teaches them not to tolerate.

Didn't the native Americans do this when you people showed up?
 
Didn't the native Americans do this when you people showed up?

No, they were too entrenched with tribal warfare and human sacrifice to welcome Europeans with open unstained hands.
 
No, they were too entrenched with tribal warfare and human sacrifice to welcome Europeans with open unstained hands.

Is that what they taught you in school? Or did you just make it up? Either way, it's crap.
 
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