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[W:202]Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

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Tim the plumber

Tim the plumber

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Greenland, that big island off Canada, is supposed to be the principal place where ice will melt and result in catastrophic sea level rise. The IPCC has a number of 59cm, er, no 1m, er no.. some other number without any change in the science... make up something quick untill people are scared... by 2100. The sea is stuborn though and is doing a steady 3mm/yr at most. So less than a foot by 2100.

Thing is Greenland is gaining ice.

Greenland has a high snowfall on it 540mm/yr. Greenland Average Precipitation | 1901-2015 Data | 2019-2020 Forecast | Historical or for more detail https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ation_and_accumulation_maps_for_greenland.pdf

The area of Greenland is 2.2 million square km. So the total snow, and a very small amount of rain, that falls on it is between 1100 to 1200Gt. That is 1100 to 1200 cubic kilometers of water equivalent.

The amount of water and ice leaving the place is said to be 260Gt/yr. I think this figure has been stretched up a bit at that.

Direct measurements of meltwater runoff on the Greenland ice sheet surface | PNAS

The production and transport of meltwater (runoff) is an important hydrological process operating on the surface of the Greenland ice sheet (GrIS). Total GrIS mass loss from runoff and solid ice dynamics (glacier calving) now exceeds ∼260 Gt/y, contributing >0.7 mm annually to global mean sea level rise (1⇓–3)
Click to expand...

So that is 1150 (say) in and 260 out. I'd call that obviously gaining ice mass. But then NASA with its' GRACE satellite system where they measure the ice mass of Greenland by seeing how those passing satellites are perturbed in their course due to the gravity of the ice. About as sensable a way of measuring the ice mass on Greenland as measuring the height of your son by using the camera footage of passing police cars.

I cannot see how NASA cannot be doing anything other than directly lying.

I understand the problem they face; if they say that Greenland is gaining ice then all the doom predictions of sea level rise will fly out of the window. They will lose the billions of dolars they get for all that global warming stuff they do. That is billions of dollars of pressure. So understandable.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Greenland can't be the "canary in a cage" indicator this late in the decaying interglacial anyway, if it grows, it grows, if it declines, it declines. In the previous Eemian it did lose significant ice mass, but that interglacial (which humans lived through) was much warmer than this one has been.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
Greenland, that big island off Canada, is supposed to be the principal place where ice will melt and result in catastrophic sea level rise. The IPCC has a number of 59cm, er, no 1m, er no.. some other number without any change in the science... make up something quick untill people are scared... by 2100. The sea is stuborn though and is doing a steady 3mm/yr at most. So less than a foot by 2100.

Thing is Greenland is gaining ice.

Greenland has a high snowfall on it 540mm/yr. Greenland Average Precipitation | 1901-2015 Data | 2019-2020 Forecast | Historical or for more detail https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ation_and_accumulation_maps_for_greenland.pdf

The area of Greenland is 2.2 million square km. So the total snow, and a very small amount of rain, that falls on it is between 1100 to 1200Gt. That is 1100 to 1200 cubic kilometers of water equivalent.

The amount of water and ice leaving the place is said to be 260Gt/yr. I think this figure has been stretched up a bit at that.

Direct measurements of meltwater runoff on the Greenland ice sheet surface | PNAS



So that is 1150 (say) in and 260 out. I'd call that obviously gaining ice mass. But then NASA with its' GRACE satellite system where they measure the ice mass of Greenland by seeing how those passing satellites are perturbed in their course due to the gravity of the ice. About as sensable a way of measuring the ice mass on Greenland as measuring the height of your son by using the camera footage of passing police cars.

I cannot see how NASA cannot be doing anything other than directly lying.

I understand the problem they face; if they say that Greenland is gaining ice then all the doom predictions of sea level rise will fly out of the window. They will lose the billions of dolars they get for all that global warming stuff they do. That is billions of dollars of pressure. So understandable.
Click to expand...

You're reading that wrong. Greenland receiving between 1100 and 1200Gt of snow doesn't mean that Greenland increases it's total amount of ice by 1100 to 1200Gt every year. It used to take that much to keep the ice amounts stable. Now Greenland is losing 260 Gt per year in spite of the snowfall.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

lwf said:
You're reading that wrong. Greenland receiving between 1100 and 1200Gt of snow doesn't mean that Greenland increases it's total amount of ice by 1100 to 1200Gt every year. It used to take that much to keep the ice amounts stable. Now Greenland is losing 260 Gt per year in spite of the snowfall.
Click to expand...

1200 GT of precipitated water is less than 260 GT of precipitated water?

Please explain.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Sunsettommy said:
1200 GT of precipitated water is less than 260 GT of precipitated water?

Please explain.
Click to expand...

No, 1200GT of precipitated water used to replace the 1200Gt of evaporation and runoff. Now it replaces 940Gt. And that number is decreasing.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
Greenland, that big island off Canada, is supposed to be the principal place where ice will melt and result in catastrophic sea level rise. The IPCC has a number of 59cm, er, no 1m, er no.. some other number without any change in the science... make up something quick untill people are scared... by 2100. The sea is stuborn though and is doing a steady 3mm/yr at most. So less than a foot by 2100.

Thing is Greenland is gaining ice.

Greenland has a high snowfall on it 540mm/yr. Greenland Average Precipitation | 1901-2015 Data | 2019-2020 Forecast | Historical or for more detail https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ation_and_accumulation_maps_for_greenland.pdf

The area of Greenland is 2.2 million square km. So the total snow, and a very small amount of rain, that falls on it is between 1100 to 1200Gt. That is 1100 to 1200 cubic kilometers of water equivalent.

The amount of water and ice leaving the place is said to be 260Gt/yr. I think this figure has been stretched up a bit at that.

Direct measurements of meltwater runoff on the Greenland ice sheet surface | PNAS



So that is 1150 (say) in and 260 out. I'd call that obviously gaining ice mass. But then NASA with its' GRACE satellite system where they measure the ice mass of Greenland by seeing how those passing satellites are perturbed in their course due to the gravity of the ice. About as sensable a way of measuring the ice mass on Greenland as measuring the height of your son by using the camera footage of passing police cars.

I cannot see how NASA cannot be doing anything other than directly lying.

I understand the problem they face; if they say that Greenland is gaining ice then all the doom predictions of sea level rise will fly out of the window. They will lose the billions of dolars they get for all that global warming stuff they do. That is billions of dollars of pressure. So understandable.
Click to expand...

Have you heard of the concept of evaporation?
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

lwf said:
You're reading that wrong. Greenland receiving between 1100 and 1200Gt of snow doesn't mean that Greenland increases it's total amount of ice by 1100 to 1200Gt every year. It used to take that much to keep the ice amounts stable. Now Greenland is losing 260 Gt per year in spite of the snowfall.
Click to expand...

No. It is outflowing 260Gt/yr out. I know they couch this in language which is unclear but if you look at the river flow data you will be unable to find these massive out flows that allow it too come anywhere near balance.

The Mississippi river has a flow rate of 45Gt/month. To break even you need 13 Mississippis. This is because the summer when it is not frozen up is only 2 months long.

The Watson river is the biggest in Greenland and has a total flow over the summerr of 8Gt (If you think they have not stretched that upwards..). It is about 5% of the total outflow. But what the hell, go for 260Gt/yr.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

lwf said:
You're reading that wrong. Greenland receiving between 1100 and 1200Gt of snow doesn't mean that Greenland increases it's total amount of ice by 1100 to 1200Gt every year. It used to take that much to keep the ice amounts stable. Now Greenland is losing 260 Gt per year in spite of the snowfall.
Click to expand...

Nope, 1150 in 260 out.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Sunsettommy said:
Greenland can't be the "canary in a cage" indicator this late in the decaying interglacial anyway, if it grows, it grows, if it declines, it declines. In the previous Eemian it did lose significant ice mass, but that interglacial (which humans lived through) was much warmer than this one has been.
Click to expand...

Not sure what your point is.......
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
No. It is outflowing 260Gt/yr out. I know they couch this in language which is unclear but if you look at the river flow data you will be unable to find these massive out flows that allow it too come anywhere near balance.

The Mississippi river has a flow rate of 45Gt/month. To break even you need 13 Mississippis. This is because the summer when it is not frozen up is only 2 months long.

The Watson river is the biggest in Greenland and has a total flow over the summerr of 8Gt (If you think they have not stretched that upwards..). It is about 5% of the total outflow. But what the hell, go for 260Gt/yr.
Click to expand...

That's impossible. If that were the case, Greenland would be the largest mountain of ice in the solar system.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Deuce said:
Have you heard of the concept of evaporation?
Click to expand...

Yes. Although from ice to water vapor it is called sublimation. This is in the order of less than 1mm out of the 540mm precipitation.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
Nope, 1150 in 260 out.
Click to expand...

Inflow vs outflow can't work that way. In most places the inflow is approximately equal to the outflow every year. In wet years, the inflow is higher. In dry years, the outflow is higher. The point here is that the outflow in Greenland has been significantly increased in the past few decades due to melting ice. That number of 260Gt is the difference between the inflow and the outflow, not the outflow itself. That's why it is 260Gt of ice "lost." It is ice that is not replaced.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

lwf said:
That's impossible. If that were the case, Greenland would be the largest mountain of ice in the solar system.
Click to expand...

That it is currently increasing in mass a lot does not mean that it is always doing so.

Given that Greenland is a high "land" area where it will only snows when the storms/weather fronts manage to push humid air over the mountains, it is perfectly reasonable that this is marginal in terms of a slight change in the path or temperature of the air, meanig that the snowfall in central Greenland becomes almost zero.

The dynamics of the rate of flow of glaciers out of the place is determined by a small number of factors;

1, The depth of the the ice.

2, The viscosity, or the degree of solidity, of the ice. The degree of movement over time vs the force on ice.

3, The shape of the valleys which the ice flows down.

Only number 1 is variable.

When the cliamte makes it snow a lot on Greenland it grows upawrds. When the climate cools the snow stops. Just does not happen. The flow of the glaciers continues. The height of Greenland reduces.....

Or it might be that Greenland will continue to grow upwards untill it is so tall that it is above the point where snow will fall.

The idea that nature is in any sort of balance is just plain wrong. Balance is just you have not looked long enough.
 
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Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
Greenland, that big island off Canada, is supposed to be the principal place where ice will melt and result in catastrophic sea level rise. The IPCC has a number of 59cm, er, no 1m, er no.. some other number without any change in the science... make up something quick untill people are scared... by 2100. The sea is stuborn though and is doing a steady 3mm/yr at most. So less than a foot by 2100.

Thing is Greenland is gaining ice.

Greenland has a high snowfall on it 540mm/yr. Greenland Average Precipitation | 1901-2015 Data | 2019-2020 Forecast | Historical or for more detail https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ation_and_accumulation_maps_for_greenland.pdf

The area of Greenland is 2.2 million square km. So the total snow, and a very small amount of rain, that falls on it is between 1100 to 1200Gt. That is 1100 to 1200 cubic kilometers of water equivalent.

The amount of water and ice leaving the place is said to be 260Gt/yr. I think this figure has been stretched up a bit at that.

Direct measurements of meltwater runoff on the Greenland ice sheet surface | PNAS



So that is 1150 (say) in and 260 out. I'd call that obviously gaining ice mass. But then NASA with its' GRACE satellite system where they measure the ice mass of Greenland by seeing how those passing satellites are perturbed in their course due to the gravity of the ice. About as sensable a way of measuring the ice mass on Greenland as measuring the height of your son by using the camera footage of passing police cars.

I cannot see how NASA cannot be doing anything other than directly lying.

I understand the problem they face; if they say that Greenland is gaining ice then all the doom predictions of sea level rise will fly out of the window. They will lose the billions of dolars they get for all that global warming stuff they do. That is billions of dollars of pressure. So understandable.
Click to expand...

I seriously dont know why they dont move this stuff to the CT forum.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Threegoofs said:
I seriously dont know why they dont move this stuff to the CT forum.
Click to expand...

It really is nuts
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

lwf said:
Inflow vs outflow can't work that way. In most places the inflow is approximately equal to the outflow every year. In wet years, the inflow is higher. In dry years, the outflow is higher. The point here is that the outflow in Greenland has been significantly increased in the past few decades due to melting ice. That number of 260Gt is the difference between the inflow and the outflow, not the outflow itself. That's why it is 260Gt of ice "lost." It is ice that is not replaced.
Click to expand...

The Watson river ;

Google Maps

Has an outflow over the 2 months of summer of 8Gt.

It exits about 5% of the total outflow. It is the biggest river in Greenland.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

The current denialist CT position isn't to pretend that it's not getting warmer. You're supposed to pretend that humans aren't causing it.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Helix said:
The current denialist CT position isn't to pretend that it's not getting warmer. You're supposed to pretend that humans aren't causing it.
Click to expand...

What ever strawman position you want me to take is not going to happen.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
The Watson river ;

Google Maps

Has an outflow over the 2 months of summer of 8Gt.

It exits about 5% of the total outflow. It is the biggest river in Greenland.
Click to expand...

The Borglum river in Northern Greenland is supposedly the largest river.

You’d think a guy who thinks he knows more than the actual scientists who study this for a living would have known that.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
That it is currently increasing in mass a lot does not mean that it is always doing so.

Given that Greenland is a high "land" area where it will only snows when the storms/weather fronts manage to push humid air over the mountains, it is perfectly reasonable that this is marginal in terms of a slight change in the path or temperature of the air, meanig that the snowfall in central Greenland becomes almost zero.

The dynamics of the rate of flow of glaciers out of the place is determined by a small number of factors;

1, The depth of the the ice.

2, The viscosity, or the degree of solidity, of the ice. The degree of movement over time vs the force on ice.

3, The shape of the valleys which the ice flows down.

Only number 1 is variable.

When the cliamte makes it snow a lot on Greenland it grows upawrds. When the climate cools the snow stops. Just does not happen. The flow of the glaciers continues. The height of Greenland reduces.....

Or it might be that Greenland will continue to grow upwards untill it is so tall that it is above the point where snow will fall.

The idea that nature is in any sort of balance is just plain wrong. Balance is just you have not looked long enough.
Click to expand...

Do you expect anyone to believe that there is at least 890 billion more metric tons of ice in Greenland this year than there was last year?

I agree that a claim of a loss of 260 billion metric tons of ice in one year warrants investigation. That is an almost unbelievable amount of ice. If this number is accurate, then I would imagine that most of it is due to calving glaciers.

But suggesting that there was an increase of 840 billion metric tons of ice is laughable. Where do you get this nonsense?
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Tim the plumber said:
What ever strawman position you want me to take is not going to happen.
Click to expand...

If you're gonna do it, at least do it right.
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Threegoofs said:
The Borglum river in Northern Greenland is supposedly the largest river.

You’d think a guy who thinks he knows more than the actual scientists who study this for a living would have known that.
Click to expand...

Got a link? And is that the flow rate or length under the ice?
 
Re: Greenland is gaining ice mass no matter what NASA says.

Who to believe? NASA or Susan from Facebook?
 
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