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A New Explanation of Arctic Warming

Jack Hays

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Here's some interesting news. It seems that CFC's may have driven substantial shares of both global and Arctic warming 1955-2005: about one third globally and one half in the Arctic. Boom! Chukka-lukka-lukka.

[h=2]“Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs![/h]By P Gosselin on 19. February 2020
[h=2]Arctic Surprise[/h]By Professor Fritz Vahrenholt
A few days ago, an international research group from the USA, Canada and Switzerland led by Lorenzo Polvani of Columbia University (New York) published a sensational study in Nature climate change, which attributes a large part of the warming of the 20th century to CFCs (“Substantial twentieth-century Arctic warming caused by ozone-depleting substances“).
Using 10 climate models, the researchers calculated the global and Arctic temperature development, once with CFCs in the atmosphere and once without.
According to these models, from 1955 to 2005, global temperatures increase by 0.59 °C with CFCs and by 0.39 °C without CFCs. One third of the warming is therefore not caused by CO2 but by the CFCs.
If the remaining warming for CO2 is converted over the five decades, an average warming of 0.08 °C per decade remains. Not exactly a lot. CFCs have a 19000-23000 times stronger forcing than CO2.
Half of Arctic warming due to CFCs

In the Arctic, the CFCs had an even greater impact in the model calculations. As is well known, the warming there from 1955 to 2005 was greater than on a global scale, by 1.59 °C in the models. According to Polvani, without CFCs the increase would have been only 0.82°C, i.e. only half as much.
Half of Arctic melt due to CFCs
The same applies to sea ice. According to Polvani, half of the decrease in the area of Arctic sea ice in September (the smallest extent of Arctic sea ice in each case) is thus attributable to CFCs. The other way round: only a maximum of half of the warming and the decline of the sea ice can be attributed to CO2.
Authors asked to edit conclusion
The authors conclude that the decrease of CFCs in the air due to the prohibition of the substances will substantially defuse the warming and the decrease of ice in the future. It is interesting that these clear conclusions called mainstream scientists to the scene. Piers Forster of the University of Leeds and John Fyfe of the Canadian University of Victoria asked the authors to change the sentence in the conclusion from “CFCs produce 1/3 of global warming and half of Arctic climate change” to “CFCs are an important contribution to the global climate system, especially in the Arctic”.
The numbers remain, but the interpretation is clouded because it would cause too much sensation. That’s how climate science framing works today.
 
Here's some interesting news. It seems that CFC's may have driven substantial shares of both global and Arctic warming 1955-2005: about one third globally and one half in the Arctic. Boom! Chukka-lukka-lukka.

[h=2]“Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs![/h]By P Gosselin on 19. February 2020
[h=2]Arctic Surprise[/h]By Professor Fritz Vahrenholt
A few days ago, an international research group from the USA, Canada and Switzerland led by Lorenzo Polvani of Columbia University (New York) published a sensational study in Nature climate change, which attributes a large part of the warming of the 20th century to CFCs (“Substantial twentieth-century Arctic warming caused by ozone-depleting substances“).
Using 10 climate models, the researchers calculated the global and Arctic temperature development, once with CFCs in the atmosphere and once without.
According to these models, from 1955 to 2005, global temperatures increase by 0.59 °C with CFCs and by 0.39 °C without CFCs. One third of the warming is therefore not caused by CO2 but by the CFCs.
If the remaining warming for CO2 is converted over the five decades, an average warming of 0.08 °C per decade remains. Not exactly a lot. CFCs have a 19000-23000 times stronger forcing than CO2.
Half of Arctic warming due to CFCs

In the Arctic, the CFCs had an even greater impact in the model calculations. As is well known, the warming there from 1955 to 2005 was greater than on a global scale, by 1.59 °C in the models. According to Polvani, without CFCs the increase would have been only 0.82°C, i.e. only half as much.
Half of Arctic melt due to CFCs
The same applies to sea ice. According to Polvani, half of the decrease in the area of Arctic sea ice in September (the smallest extent of Arctic sea ice in each case) is thus attributable to CFCs. The other way round: only a maximum of half of the warming and the decline of the sea ice can be attributed to CO2.
Authors asked to edit conclusion
The authors conclude that the decrease of CFCs in the air due to the prohibition of the substances will substantially defuse the warming and the decrease of ice in the future. It is interesting that these clear conclusions called mainstream scientists to the scene. Piers Forster of the University of Leeds and John Fyfe of the Canadian University of Victoria asked the authors to change the sentence in the conclusion from “CFCs produce 1/3 of global warming and half of Arctic climate change” to “CFCs are an important contribution to the global climate system, especially in the Arctic”.
The numbers remain, but the interpretation is clouded because it would cause too much sensation. That’s how climate science framing works today.

Drives home the point that the alleged experts dont know what is going on, they are trying to figure it out.

I was recently reading that there is little doubt but that the Chinese are currently dumping a lot of CFC's...if so then this needs to get proven, and they need to knock it off.
 
Here's some interesting news. It seems that CFC's may have driven substantial shares of both global and Arctic warming 1955-2005: about one third globally and one half in the Arctic. Boom! Chukka-lukka-lukka.

[h=2]“Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs![/h]By P Gosselin on 19. February 2020
[h=2]Arctic Surprise[/h]By Professor Fritz Vahrenholt
A few days ago, an international research group from the USA, Canada and Switzerland led by Lorenzo Polvani of Columbia University (New York) published a sensational study in Nature climate change, which attributes a large part of the warming of the 20th century to CFCs (“Substantial twentieth-century Arctic warming caused by ozone-depleting substances“).
Using 10 climate models, the researchers calculated the global and Arctic temperature development, once with CFCs in the atmosphere and once without.
According to these models, from 1955 to 2005, global temperatures increase by 0.59 °C with CFCs and by 0.39 °C without CFCs. One third of the warming is therefore not caused by CO2 but by the CFCs.
If the remaining warming for CO2 is converted over the five decades, an average warming of 0.08 °C per decade remains. Not exactly a lot. CFCs have a 19000-23000 times stronger forcing than CO2.
Half of Arctic warming due to CFCs

In the Arctic, the CFCs had an even greater impact in the model calculations. As is well known, the warming there from 1955 to 2005 was greater than on a global scale, by 1.59 °C in the models. According to Polvani, without CFCs the increase would have been only 0.82°C, i.e. only half as much.
Half of Arctic melt due to CFCs
The same applies to sea ice. According to Polvani, half of the decrease in the area of Arctic sea ice in September (the smallest extent of Arctic sea ice in each case) is thus attributable to CFCs. The other way round: only a maximum of half of the warming and the decline of the sea ice can be attributed to CO2.
Authors asked to edit conclusion
The authors conclude that the decrease of CFCs in the air due to the prohibition of the substances will substantially defuse the warming and the decrease of ice in the future. It is interesting that these clear conclusions called mainstream scientists to the scene. Piers Forster of the University of Leeds and John Fyfe of the Canadian University of Victoria asked the authors to change the sentence in the conclusion from “CFCs produce 1/3 of global warming and half of Arctic climate change” to “CFCs are an important contribution to the global climate system, especially in the Arctic”.
The numbers remain, but the interpretation is clouded because it would cause too much sensation. That’s how climate science framing works today.

If I'm not mistaken, you have consistently denied human actions are a part of gcc. Change your mind?
 
If I'm not mistaken, you have consistently denied human actions are a part of gcc. Change your mind?

You are mistaken. In line with Nir Shaviv and Henrik Svensmark I believe human activity drove about half of 20th century warming.
 
You are mistaken. In line with Nir Shaviv and Henrik Svensmark I believe human activity drove about half of 20th century warming.

Wow... we are getting there. :bravo:

Half way there, my friend!
 
Drives home the point that the alleged experts dont know what is going on, they are trying to figure it out.

I was recently reading that there is little doubt but that the Chinese are currently dumping a lot of CFC's...if so then this needs to get proven, and they need to knock it off.
They know what is going on, they are just not honest about it.

In order to create ozone you require molecular oxygen and UV radiation. Without UV radiation there is no ozone. Guess what happens at the poles during their corresponding Winter months? The sun doesn't shine above the Arctic Circle or below the Antarctic Circle for 90 days at a time. Which means that there is no ozone being produced. As a result there are very large ozone holes during the Winter months at both poles. These ozone holes are not a problem either, because once again the sun isn't shining so there is no UV radiation. It has absolutely nothing to do with CFCs and everything to do with sunshine.

The poles on Mars are going through the exact same warming as the poles on Earth. Mars is emerging from an ice age and experiencing global warming similar to Earth. Considering Mars has an atmosphere which is already 95.32% carbon dioxide, the Marxist climate alarmists would be hard pressed to blame the warming on atmospheric carbon dioxide, much less try to claim that 0.04% of Earth's atmospheric carbon dioxide is a driving factor in Earth's climate.

Source:
An ice age recorded in the polar deposits of Mars - Science, Volume 352, Issue 6289, pp. 1075-1078, 27 May 2016
 
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They know what is going on, they are just not honest about it.

In order to create ozone you require molecular oxygen and UV radiation. Without UV radiation there is no ozone. Guess what happens at the poles during their corresponding Winter months? The sun doesn't shine above the Arctic Circle or below the Antarctic Circle for 90 days at a time. Which means that there is no ozone being produced. As a result there are very large ozone holes during the Winter months at both poles. These ozone holes are not a problem either, because once again the sun isn't shining so there is no UV radiation. It has absolutely nothing to do with CFCs and everything to do with sunshine.

The poles on Mars are going through the exact same warming as the poles on Earth. Mars is emerging from an ice age and experiencing global warming similar to Earth. Considering Mars has an atmosphere which is already 95.32% carbon dioxide, that Marxist climate alarmists would be hard pressed to blame the warming on atmospheric carbon dioxide, much less try to claim that 0.04% of Earth's atmospheric carbon dioxide is a driving factor in Earth's climate.

Source:
An ice age recorded in the polar deposits of Mars - Science, Volume 352, Issue 6289, pp. 1075-1078, 27 May 2016

I say that you have too much faith in expertise. Over my entire life the Experts have been an extreme disappointment. And they are getting worse.
 
I say that you have too much faith in expertise. Over my entire life the Experts have been an extreme disappointment. And they are getting worse.

Faith has nothing to do with it. It is physics and reason that matters. Never put your faith in anyone, or as President Reagan once said, "trust, but verify." That is why they established the peer review process in the first place.
 
Faith has nothing to do with it. It is physics and reason that matters. Never put your faith in anyone, or as President Reagan once said, "trust, but verify." That is why they established the peer review process in the first place.

Science is deeply corrupt and most people would rather live in fantasy than reality....and peer review has not saved Science from crippling corruption so save the rap....I know better.
 
Science is deeply corrupt and most people would rather live in fantasy than reality....and peer review has not saved Science from crippling corruption so save the rap....I know better.

People are corrupt, not the scientific process. When Marxists attempt to misuse science to further their agenda that makes them corrupt, not the science.
 
People are corrupt, not the scientific process. When Marxists attempt to misuse science to further their agenda that makes them corrupt, not the science.

"The system failed because of a few bad agents that the system was not able to detect and take care of, it has nothing to do with weaknesses and failure of the system!".





barf
 
That has been my position from the beginning. What it means is that there is no climate crisis.

No, it has not. From what I have seen, you've been a 100% denier since I've known you. And to think that there is no climate crisis is ignorant at best. No worries, though. You might choose to go down with the ship but others like you have jumped. It's coming to a point where it's getting more difficult to deny something that is happening before our eyes.
 
Here's some interesting news. It seems that CFC's may have driven substantial shares of both global and Arctic warming 1955-2005: about one third globally and one half in the Arctic. Boom! Chukka-lukka-lukka.

[h=2]“Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs![/h]By P Gosselin on 19. February 2020
[h=2]Arctic Surprise[/h]By Professor Fritz Vahrenholt
A few days ago, an international research group from the USA, Canada and Switzerland led by Lorenzo Polvani of Columbia University (New York) published a sensational study in Nature climate change, which attributes a large part of the warming of the 20th century to CFCs (“Substantial twentieth-century Arctic warming caused by ozone-depleting substances“).
Using 10 climate models, the researchers calculated the global and Arctic temperature development, once with CFCs in the atmosphere and once without.
According to these models, from 1955 to 2005, global temperatures increase by 0.59 °C with CFCs and by 0.39 °C without CFCs. One third of the warming is therefore not caused by CO2 but by the CFCs.
If the remaining warming for CO2 is converted over the five decades, an average warming of 0.08 °C per decade remains. Not exactly a lot. CFCs have a 19000-23000 times stronger forcing than CO2.
Half of Arctic warming due to CFCs

In the Arctic, the CFCs had an even greater impact in the model calculations. As is well known, the warming there from 1955 to 2005 was greater than on a global scale, by 1.59 °C in the models. According to Polvani, without CFCs the increase would have been only 0.82°C, i.e. only half as much.
Half of Arctic melt due to CFCs
The same applies to sea ice. According to Polvani, half of the decrease in the area of Arctic sea ice in September (the smallest extent of Arctic sea ice in each case) is thus attributable to CFCs. The other way round: only a maximum of half of the warming and the decline of the sea ice can be attributed to CO2.
Authors asked to edit conclusion
The authors conclude that the decrease of CFCs in the air due to the prohibition of the substances will substantially defuse the warming and the decrease of ice in the future. It is interesting that these clear conclusions called mainstream scientists to the scene. Piers Forster of the University of Leeds and John Fyfe of the Canadian University of Victoria asked the authors to change the sentence in the conclusion from “CFCs produce 1/3 of global warming and half of Arctic climate change” to “CFCs are an important contribution to the global climate system, especially in the Arctic”.
The numbers remain, but the interpretation is clouded because it would cause too much sensation. That’s how climate science framing works today.

This brings up an interesting point.
Since the Arctic and the Antarctic have warmed at vastly different rates, yet both have the same CO2 level,
implies that something other than CO2 is at play.
While CFC's themselves are considered well mixed, they mostly originate in the Northern Hemisphere.
Perhaps CFC's and soot could account for the massive difference in warming between the Arctic and the Antarctic.
https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v4/ZonAnn.Ts+dSST.txt
64N-90N pre 1900 average to decade ending in 2019 average 3.31°C
90S-64S pre 1900 average to decade ending in 2019 average 0.28°C.
 
No, it has not. From what I have seen, you've been a 100% denier since I've known you. And to think that there is no climate crisis is ignorant at best. No worries, though. You might choose to go down with the ship but others like you have jumped. It's coming to a point where it's getting more difficult to deny something that is happening before our eyes.

His thread title is, drumroll: A New Explanation of Arctic Warming

The title in the post you never visited or read: “Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs!

He then post a paper talking about it, you ignored it for a worthless personal attack on him.

I am getting confused by your meandering babble, first you say he is 100% denier, then you say he doesn't think there is a climate crisis. While he made a post talking about the WARMING in the arctic, and what may have been a significant cause of the WARMING.

Meanwhile you provided ZERO facts or evidence, to back up your "opinion"....., against his post that accepts the warming evidence you irrationally say he is denying.

Warmist/alarmists are funny people.....

:lamo
 
His thread title is, drumroll: A New Explanation of Arctic Warming

The title in the post you never visited or read: “Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs!

He then post a paper talking about it, you ignored it for a worthless personal attack on him.

I am getting confused by your meandering babble, first you say he is 100% denier, then you say he doesn't think there is a climate crisis. While he made a post talking about the WARMING in the arctic, and what may have been a significant cause of the WARMING.

Meanwhile you provided ZERO facts or evidence, to back up your "opinion"....., against his post that accepts the warming evidence you irrationally say he is denying.

Warmist/alarmists are funny people.....

:lamo

Therein is the problem. They are attributing the ozone holes over the Arctic and Antarctic as a result of some left-over 20th century CFCs. Even though they have absolutely no evidence of any CFCs in the atmosphere. In other words, it is a deliberate lie. The ozone holes exist because no ozone is created when there is no sunlight, it has absolutely nothing do with CFCs.
 
Therein is the problem. They are attributing the ozone holes over the Arctic and Antarctic as a result of some left-over 20th century CFCs. Even though they have absolutely no evidence of any CFCs in the atmosphere. In other words, it is a deliberate lie. The ozone holes exist because no ozone is created when there is no sunlight, it has absolutely nothing do with CFCs.
It may not matter what caused the holes in the ozone! if the lack of ozone is why the arctic is warming more.
 
No, it has not. From what I have seen, you've been a 100% denier since I've known you. And to think that there is no climate crisis is ignorant at best. No worries, though. You might choose to go down with the ship but others like you have jumped. It's coming to a point where it's getting more difficult to deny something that is happening before our eyes.

Sorry, but your ignorance is showing. The paper linked in this thread's OP is but one aspect of the accelerating collapse of the AGW narrative.
And when you say "100% denier" all you're doing is demonstrating you don't know the issue. I have from the beginning advocated for the views of Henrik Svensmark and Nir Shaviv, neither of whom has ever said GHG's have no role in warming.
But if GHG warming is only about half then climate sensitivity is quite low, and the 21st century will be just fine.
 
It may not matter what caused the holes in the ozone! if the lack of ozone is why the arctic is warming more.

The lack of ozone is the result of the lack of sunshine. Which means that it cannot be why the Arctic is warming. If there is no sunlight there is no warming and no ozone.
 
The lack of ozone is the result of the lack of sunshine. Which means that it cannot be why the Arctic is warming. If there is no sunlight there is no warming and no ozone.
Good point , but there may be periods of time where the sun is shining before the ozone forms.
I actually think soot is a bigger factor. It would explain the vast warming difference between the Arctic and Antarctic.
I overlapped the GISS zone warming, on top of Hansen's prediction,
He clearly missed the mark.
Hansen_vs_observed.jpg
 
You are mistaken. In line with Nir Shaviv and Henrik Svensmark I believe human activity drove about half of 20th century warming.

If the argument boils down to this, and only solving a so called problem, this video points clearly to the way to solve warming climate.

 
Good point , but there may be periods of time where the sun is shining before the ozone forms.
I actually think soot is a bigger factor. It would explain the vast warming difference between the Arctic and Antarctic.
I overlapped the GISS zone warming, on top of Hansen's prediction,
He clearly missed the mark.
View attachment 67274123

When the sun is shining (even on cloudy days) it is producing ozone. The ozone layer is thinner at the poles during their respective Summer months than at the equator, but again that is a function of the intensity of the sunshine and the rotation of the planet. The sunlight has to travel through more atmosphere to reach the poles, so it is not nearly as intense as the sunshine at the equator.

As far as warming in the Arctic is concerned, it varies significantly from year to year. We've had years (recently) with 133" of snowfall in Anchorage, breaking the snowfall record established in 1956. We've also had Winters with -60°F (-51.1°C). The coldest temperature ever recorded in the US was -80°F (-62.2°C) on January 23, 1971 in Prospect Creek in central Alaska. We have also had Winters where it was colder with more snow in Texas than in Alaska. Last Summer we broke the record high for Anchorage at 90°F that was set in 1967. However, during that same month of July it has also been 36°F (2°C) in Anchorage. In the 29 Winters I've experienced in Alaska none have been the same. Overall, however, temperatures have slightly increased by about 2°F (1.1°C) over the last century (temperature records only go back to 1916). Permafrost is melting and more land is becoming arable. Which is a good thing.
 
Last edited:
His thread title is, drumroll: A New Explanation of Arctic Warming

The title in the post you never visited or read: “Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs!

He then post a paper talking about it, you ignored it for a worthless personal attack on him.

I am getting confused by your meandering babble, first you say he is 100% denier, then you say he doesn't think there is a climate crisis. While he made a post talking about the WARMING in the arctic, and what may have been a significant cause of the WARMING.

Meanwhile you provided ZERO facts or evidence, to back up your "opinion"....., against his post that accepts the warming evidence you irrationally say he is denying.

Warmist/alarmists are funny people.....

:lamo

Jeepers newbie, you have waterfalls behind your ears. :roll:

Why would I take the time to read a crock of **** paper that our friend Mr Hays probably got off of his daily feed? He does not go to any legit sites. He looks for **** that backs his pre-conceived notions. Heck, if I were to only go to sites that push that the earth is flat, I would ****ing believe it after a while.

BTW, 7-8 years ago, Hays constantly pushed and posted paper after idiotic paper about how were are in a cooling phase and the world was getting colder! He's more-or-less stopped that nonsense because reality got into the way. It's like that last doctor holding onto the belief that cigs don't cause cancer even though most of his smoking patients had lung cancer.
 
Last edited:
Here's some interesting news. It seems that CFC's may have driven substantial shares of both global and Arctic warming 1955-2005: about one third globally and one half in the Arctic. Boom! Chukka-lukka-lukka.

[h=2]“Arctic Surprise…Sensational Study In Nature”: Large Part Of 20th Century Warming Attributed To CFCs![/h]By P Gosselin on 19. February 2020
[h=2]Arctic Surprise[/h]By Professor Fritz Vahrenholt
A few days ago, an international research group from the USA, Canada and Switzerland led by Lorenzo Polvani of Columbia University (New York) published a sensational study in Nature climate change, which attributes a large part of the warming of the 20th century to CFCs (“Substantial twentieth-century Arctic warming caused by ozone-depleting substances“).
Using 10 climate models, the researchers calculated the global and Arctic temperature development, once with CFCs in the atmosphere and once without.
According to these models, from 1955 to 2005, global temperatures increase by 0.59 °C with CFCs and by 0.39 °C without CFCs. One third of the warming is therefore not caused by CO2 but by the CFCs.
If the remaining warming for CO2 is converted over the five decades, an average warming of 0.08 °C per decade remains. Not exactly a lot. CFCs have a 19000-23000 times stronger forcing than CO2.
Half of Arctic warming due to CFCs

In the Arctic, the CFCs had an even greater impact in the model calculations. As is well known, the warming there from 1955 to 2005 was greater than on a global scale, by 1.59 °C in the models. According to Polvani, without CFCs the increase would have been only 0.82°C, i.e. only half as much.
Half of Arctic melt due to CFCs
The same applies to sea ice. According to Polvani, half of the decrease in the area of Arctic sea ice in September (the smallest extent of Arctic sea ice in each case) is thus attributable to CFCs. The other way round: only a maximum of half of the warming and the decline of the sea ice can be attributed to CO2.
Authors asked to edit conclusion
The authors conclude that the decrease of CFCs in the air due to the prohibition of the substances will substantially defuse the warming and the decrease of ice in the future. It is interesting that these clear conclusions called mainstream scientists to the scene. Piers Forster of the University of Leeds and John Fyfe of the Canadian University of Victoria asked the authors to change the sentence in the conclusion from “CFCs produce 1/3 of global warming and half of Arctic climate change” to “CFCs are an important contribution to the global climate system, especially in the Arctic”.
The numbers remain, but the interpretation is clouded because it would cause too much sensation. That’s how climate science framing works today.

I read someplace Asia is now emitting lots of CFCs.
 
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