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Thread: Arson in Australia

  1. #161
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Ah... I see the problem here. You think that thinning of the forests to prevent forest fires is "restoration". Well... it isn't.

    Don't get me wrong. I understand the need to do things like this. But to attack environmentalists and their concerns about fire suppression tactics as if they are stopping the restoration of forests is just dishonest nonsense.
    No. you are misguided and showing your ignorance.
    Thinning and removal of debris reduces fuel load. Thinning to proper stocking levels improves forest health. Do you know how reduced fuel loads affects fire behavior? Where did I say thinning prevents forest fires?

    You did not believe that environmental groups have stopped or hindered forest health projects. The links showed you were wrong. Fess up.

    The only nonsense being posted is yours. None of my comments towards environmental groups addressed suppression tactics.
    One can not have a rational discussion with someone who has not a clue or willing to educate themselves on the subject. You are out of your league on this subject.
    My education in Forest Management and wildfire along with 30 years working in fire pretty much trumps your "hobby".
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  2. #162
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Somehow I don't believe you that you have spent a "huge amounts of time researching and learning about climate change "
    Yeah... well, I don't really care if you believe me or not. But if you want to really find out if I am full of BS or not then do a search of my posts. There are only a little over 1000 of them and you will see that I regularly discuss topics that most people have no clue about. And not only that but I have on some occasions debunked denialist misinformation from people who say they are scientists or climate experts. And I have no formal education in the subject of climate change. It is all self-taught. And I swear... it has taken me literally thousands of hours of research and reading to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    In your outdoor type "hobbies", have you ever been on a team to write an Environmental Impact Statement, researched fire behavior, written and implemented prescribed burn plans, or worked on a wildfire?
    Of course not! Who would do these kinds of things for these kinds of hobbies? Nobody. But I have on occasion read about these subjects in my research on global warming.

    So... tell me. Have you ever researched equilibrium climate sensitivity(ECS) or transient climate response(TCR) in your training for your profession? What about studying the planetary energy budget of Earth to understand why the planet is warming? Or maybe learned exactly how CO2 and the other greenhouse gases are trapping energy and warming us up? Do you know anything specific about how numerous scientific organizations have recorded, adjusted and assessed the warming of the planet?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    Has your research ever took you to the spotted or Mexican owl issues that some environmental groups have. If you did you would know that despite having EIS/EA's done the USFS and other agencies have been taken to court over thinning project. The court filing slowed or stopped a project. Thank goodness many times after years in the courts the project was cleared to proceed.
    Again... I do not think that thinning projects are "restoration". But this doesn't mean I think thinning projects are necessarily bad. I am aware of the fact that modern forest fire suppression has caused a build-up of fuel in our forests. But I also believe that the need to remove these build-ups of fuel need to take into consideration other issues. Like the concern for spotted/Mexican owls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    I know work experience is not a "citation". Seems you have no sense of humor.

  3. #163
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    No. you are misguided and showing your ignorance.
    Now you are just getting insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    Thinning and removal of debris reduces fuel load.
    No **** Sherlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    Thinning to proper stocking levels improves forest health.
    Proper stocking levels? We are talking about forests, not livestock.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    Do you know how reduced fuel loads affects fire behavior?
    Of course, I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    Where did I say thinning prevents forest fires??
    You inferred it when you cited thinning projects that were stopped by environmentalists to support your statement that they have slowed or put an end to restoration projects. That was after you said that you suspected that environmentalists have done the same thing in Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    You did not believe that environmental groups have stopped or hindered forest health projects. The links showed you were wrong. Fess up.
    You didn't say anything about forest health projects. You said restoration projects. There is a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    The only nonsense being posted is yours. None of my comments towards environmental groups addressed suppression tactics.
    Except when you showed that environmentalist groups have stopped forest thinning projects... which is a fire suppression tactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    One can not have a rational discussion with someone who has not a clue or willing to educate themselves on the subject.
    Yeah... just like one can not have a rational discussion with someone who resorts to dishonest and insulting debate tactics like you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    You are out of your league on this subject.
    Why is that? You haven't actually proven me wrong on anything. All you have done is act like a know-it-all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    My education in Forest Management and wildfire along with 30 years working in fire pretty much trumps your "hobby".
    Well... Mr. "I know more than you", tell me why you got into this argument if you can't support the denialist claim that greens caused the Australian fires.

  4. #164
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    He is a retired bush fire specialist. And I found a video interview of him where he cites his source for his belief that greens are partly responsible(it is about 5 minutes into it). And he quotes Roger Underwood who is a denialist that posts on the denialist Jennifer Marohasy's website. And all Roger said is that the greens profit by all the fires because they can blame it on global warming. So... that quote is not proof that the greens are responsible for the build-up of fuel.

    Sorry, Jack. You haven't proven anything except your inability to tell the difference between fact and propaganda.
    Your durable denialism is noted. There is no doubt that green opposition significantly inhibited the controlled burning that would have prevented much recent devastation. As for Marohasy, she's an extraordinarily valuable source of information.

    After the Tragic Wildfires: History is Rewritten or Forgotten

    January 13, 2020 By jennifer 29 Comments
    The infernos of January 2020 will be remembered for destroying so much of southeastern Australia. I weep for the burns’ victims. So many people and so much wildlife in so much pain. In terms of area of land burnt, these last few weeks may be … [Read more...]
    "Above all, not too much zeal." --Prince Talleyrand

  5. #165
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post

    Except when you showed that environmentalist groups have stopped forest thinning projects... which is a fire suppression tactic.
    Provide citations that thinning is a fire suppression tactic. The key word is "suppression".
    Thinning can be used to help restore forest health. It also can be used to help modify fire behavior if a fire burns into a thinned area. Less intense fire allows for more direct suppression methods.

    I got into this thread to correct your post errors regarding fires and resource management.

    Have a good one.

    One site you may enjoy.
    Wildfire Today - News and opinion about wildland fire
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    If we have data, let's look at the data. if all we have is opinions let's go with mine
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  6. #166
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Climate change is the excuse to hide an Inferno of Incompetence — heads must roll for the billion dollar bushfire mistakes


    Whose fault was it and will they get away with it (like all the other times)?

    Twenty seven people died, a billion animals, 2,000 homes, tourism wrecked and a plume of smoke stretched from here to South America. Unless heads roll, this cycle repeats every 10 – 20 years. Imagine if the media was demanding to know how State Premiers had allowed this catastrophe, or if the opposition was accusing the government of listening to the Ivory Tower instead of the firies? The problem is, they’re all complicit. Both sides of politics are guilty, and the media didn’t see this coming either.
    We can recognise those avoiding responsibility by the way they fob off hard questions:
    1. Let’s blame “climate change” (because these fires are “normal” now, get used to it. Plus luckily no one ever says — “you mean it’s China’s fault?”)
    2. Let’s say “now’s not the time to play the blame game” and,
    3. Coming soon: “let’s wait for the Royal Commission, or Almighty Investigation, or 28th Fire Report” — or whichever comes last. (Who wants to preempt a report even if we already know what it will say. )
    But we already know three State governments have not followed the advice from most past reports. They’ve ignored the fire and forestry scientists who warned them a disaster was coming and fuel loads were too high. They’ve ignored history. Bushfires in Australia are one of the most obvious dangers to live and health and yet few state leaders have bothered to understand them.
    An Inferno of Incompetence and Obfuscation

    by Roger Underwood on Quadrant
    Roger Underwood AOM spent years in bushfire management, and was General Manager of CALM in WA (Conservation and Land Management). He is often asked “who’s to blame” and he points at the State Premiers, Minister and Public Servants who listened to university fools and not the bushfire scientists who said “a disaster was imminent” and who told them to clear the fuel.
    At the top of the list are the premiers and ministers responsible for land management, such as it is, and bushfire policy, and the public servants in their departments with jurisdiction over forests and national parks. State governments in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria have palpably failed to do the most important job they were elected to do: protect the lives and livelihoods of their citizens and the health of their environment. And their public servants have failed to do the job they are being paid to do: serve the public.
    All Big-Government roads lead to death and destruction:
    Yet despite the science, the evidence presented by bushmen, the dramatic history of this contininent’s relationship with fire, and the findings of numerous inquiries, successive governments in Qld, NSW and Victoria over the last 25 years have consistently failed to prepare potential firegrounds in the expectation of the inevitable. Not only this, they seem to have actually go out of their way to make things worse: the cut-backs to fuel reduction burning, the closure of access roads and trails in national parks, the decimation of professional forestry and fire management expertise, the turning of the blind eye to the creation of residential subdivisions incapable of being defended, the funding of “research” in the universities that is aimed at making the job of the firefighter more difficult, and the erection of a complex bureaucratic edifices that hinder sensible bushfire preparedness and make fuel-reduction burning almost impossible. . . . .

    Keep reading →




    "Above all, not too much zeal." --Prince Talleyrand

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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Your durable denialism is noted. There is no doubt that green opposition significantly inhibited the controlled burning that would have prevented much recent devastation. As for Marohasy, she's an extraordinarily valuable source of information.

    After the Tragic Wildfires: History is Rewritten or Forgotten

    January 13, 2020 By jennifer 29 Comments
    The infernos of January 2020 will be remembered for destroying so much of southeastern Australia. I weep for the burns’ victims. So many people and so much wildlife in so much pain. In terms of area of land burnt, these last few weeks may be … [Read more...]
    Look, Jack... I told you I am not wasting my time reading your stupid links anymore. If this one contains evidence that greens are responsible for preventing the removal of fuel then you are going to have to provide the exact quote that shows this. Otherwise, I am going to assume you still can't prove ****!

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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Provide citations that thinning is a fire suppression tactic. The key word is "suppression".
    Thinning can be used to help restore forest health. It also can be used to help modify fire behavior if a fire burns into a thinned area. Less intense fire allows for more direct suppression methods.
    Now you are just nit-picking the definition of "suppression" in an effort to avoid having to admit you are wrong. You are just like all the other people here who want to blame environmentalists for the build-up of fuel but you can't actually provide any evidence that they did this. And I am referring to Australia only. I am well aware that things are different over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810
    I got into this thread to correct your post errors regarding fires and resource management.
    What errors?

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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Look, Jack... I told you I am not wasting my time reading your stupid links anymore. If this one contains evidence that greens are responsible for preventing the removal of fuel then you are going to have to provide the exact quote that shows this. Otherwise, I am going to assume you still can't prove ****!
    I have already proven, and you've already denied.
    "Above all, not too much zeal." --Prince Talleyrand

  10. #170
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    Re: Arson in Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Now you are just nit-picking the definition of "suppression" in an effort to avoid having to admit you are wrong. You are just like all the other people here who want to blame environmentalists for the build-up of fuel but you can't actually provide any evidence that they did this. And I am referring to Australia only. I am well aware that things are different over here.



    What errors?
    Sorry, I am correct and you are wrong in the use of the term "suppression". Where have I blamed the mess totally on "environmentalist"? Politicians play a role in forcing poor resource management policies on resource managers.

    What errors? If you cannot figure out from my posts. your helpless.
    "
    If we have data, let's look at the data. if all we have is opinions let's go with mine
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