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Thread: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

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    Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Cutting through the propaganda.





    Why electric cars still don’t live up to the hype


    ". . . ​Mass adoption of electric cars, however, cannot occur unless they can do everything gas-powered vehicles can do — including the ability to go hundreds of miles before refueling, and refueling easily — at a comparable total cost of ownership. Otherwise, electric cars will be a niche product for upper-income folks. And government subsidies for them will be a regressive transfer of social resources in return for little climate benefit, given that the U.S. power grid the cars draw from is 64 percent fueled by coal and gas.

    Nothing happened in the past decade to undermine this basic critique. Government, both federal and state, subsidized electric-car sales and production to the tune of several billion dollars, yet as of March 2019, there were 1.18 million electric vehicles on the road in the United States — less than one-half of 1 percent of the total. Households earning $100,000 or more per year own two-thirds of EVs, with many of the owners benefiting from a $7,500 federal tax credit.

    Globally, electric-car adoption is also modest relative to optimistic forecasts. Of the 86 million cars sold in the top 54 world markets in 2018, 1.26 million, or 1.5 percent, were EVs. That’s nowhere near then-Nissan chief executive Carlos Ghosn’s 2010 prognostication that EVs would account for 10 percent of global sales by 2020. . . .

    Established automakers are indeed about to ramp up electric offerings, providing Tesla with its most serious competition yet.

    They are doing so, however, more as a response to regulatory pressure from governments — even after the Trump administration scaled back fuel-economy standards — than as a response to demonstrated customer demand, which lately has favored gas-powered SUVs and pickups.

    The problem, as industry leaders acknowledge in their quieter moments, is still the same: getting the total cost of owning an EV down to that of a gas equivalent. There’s uncertainty about key variables such as how much more battery costs will fall and the global supply of rare-earth elements. . . . "


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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Cutting through the propaganda.





    Why electric cars still don’t live up to the hype


    ". . . ​Mass adoption of electric cars, however, cannot occur unless they can do everything gas-powered vehicles can do — including the ability to go hundreds of miles before refueling, and refueling easily — at a comparable total cost of ownership. Otherwise, electric cars will be a niche product for upper-income folks. And government subsidies for them will be a regressive transfer of social resources in return for little climate benefit, given that the U.S. power grid the cars draw from is 64 percent fueled by coal and gas.

    Nothing happened in the past decade to undermine this basic critique. Government, both federal and state, subsidized electric-car sales and production to the tune of several billion dollars, yet as of March 2019, there were 1.18 million electric vehicles on the road in the United States — less than one-half of 1 percent of the total. Households earning $100,000 or more per year own two-thirds of EVs, with many of the owners benefiting from a $7,500 federal tax credit.

    Globally, electric-car adoption is also modest relative to optimistic forecasts. Of the 86 million cars sold in the top 54 world markets in 2018, 1.26 million, or 1.5 percent, were EVs. That’s nowhere near then-Nissan chief executive Carlos Ghosn’s 2010 prognostication that EVs would account for 10 percent of global sales by 2020. . . .

    Established automakers are indeed about to ramp up electric offerings, providing Tesla with its most serious competition yet.

    They are doing so, however, more as a response to regulatory pressure from governments — even after the Trump administration scaled back fuel-economy standards — than as a response to demonstrated customer demand, which lately has favored gas-powered SUVs and pickups.

    The problem, as industry leaders acknowledge in their quieter moments, is still the same: getting the total cost of owning an EV down to that of a gas equivalent. There’s uncertainty about key variables such as how much more battery costs will fall and the global supply of rare-earth elements. . . . "


    EV's are great, for a certain subset of drivers, but as replacement for the needs of most folks? Not at all.
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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Cutting through the propaganda.





    Why electric cars still don’t live up to the hype


    ". . . ​Mass adoption of electric cars, however, cannot occur unless they can do everything gas-powered vehicles can do — including the ability to go hundreds of miles before refueling, and refueling easily — at a comparable total cost of ownership. Otherwise, electric cars will be a niche product for upper-income folks. And government subsidies for them will be a regressive transfer of social resources in return for little climate benefit, given that the U.S. power grid the cars draw from is 64 percent fueled by coal and gas.

    Nothing happened in the past decade to undermine this basic critique. Government, both federal and state, subsidized electric-car sales and production to the tune of several billion dollars, yet as of March 2019, there were 1.18 million electric vehicles on the road in the United States — less than one-half of 1 percent of the total. Households earning $100,000 or more per year own two-thirds of EVs, with many of the owners benefiting from a $7,500 federal tax credit.

    Globally, electric-car adoption is also modest relative to optimistic forecasts. Of the 86 million cars sold in the top 54 world markets in 2018, 1.26 million, or 1.5 percent, were EVs. That’s nowhere near then-Nissan chief executive Carlos Ghosn’s 2010 prognostication that EVs would account for 10 percent of global sales by 2020. . . .

    Established automakers are indeed about to ramp up electric offerings, providing Tesla with its most serious competition yet.

    They are doing so, however, more as a response to regulatory pressure from governments — even after the Trump administration scaled back fuel-economy standards — than as a response to demonstrated customer demand, which lately has favored gas-powered SUVs and pickups.

    The problem, as industry leaders acknowledge in their quieter moments, is still the same: getting the total cost of owning an EV down to that of a gas equivalent. There’s uncertainty about key variables such as how much more battery costs will fall and the global supply of rare-earth elements. . . . "


    I would like to know how much the mileage is reduced when you are driving in below freezing temperatures and keeping the insode of the car cozy.
    The left says the right is full of racists and bigots and have no tolerance. Nobody from the right organizes interference with gay pride parades, or other leftist events. The left however always has a group interfering with events organized by the right. Who are the tolerant ones I ask? Most certainly not the left.

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    I've posted several places several times that I'd like to have a small electric to zip around town in.
    I still do more than ever. Over the holidays and a California Christmas, I got to drive a rented Tesla
    and take a ride from San Jose up to Big Basin state park. Wow! A 60 mile round trip up a winding
    mountain road. The car never shifts gears, it's perfectly smooth no down shifting or braking. It
    does have brakes and a brake pedal but you don't have to use them. When you take your foot off
    the "Gas" pedal, regenerative braking brings you to a nice smooth stop. Charging time is still an issue
    for long trips. The acceleration is positively phenomenal - so is the price tag.
    Climate change policies aren't meant to control the climate,
    they're meant to control you. . . . . . . . . Paul Joseph Watson

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Electrics are not for everyone, now, but nothing ever started at the top of it's ability - improvements happen over time. For the record, the very first cars were electric, not gas and now we are coming full circle.

    The range is constantly improving, 200 to 300 is available on most EV's. The cost of most is inline with many gas cars. You also have to factor that there are very generous rebates when you by an EV, from several sources. For example: With the rebates I got 35k car down to 24k, selling my older EV brought that down to 19K, but there are more savings that keep on giving. There is 2 years of 30 minutes free charging at a charging station and you can do that a couple of times a day if you want. 30 minutes usually gives me 80 to 90% charge. You also charge at home, the electric company gives you a special rate that is about half of the normal rate and because you are doing it at your house that rate applies to your whole house usage.

    Then consider the cost of gas versus electricity, I get an average of 160 miles per charge, if I were to charge entirely at home that would come to and average of $4.80 for a full charge. At current gas prices and mileages on a gas car what would 160 mile of driving cost you? My gasser gets 20 mpg, gas here gas has dropped from $3.89 to $3.09 a gallon (for now) and that would cost me $24.72 - if I were to charge only at home that would be over a $20 savings, but I take full advantage of the free charging offered so it's basically 0, add in the constant savings on the whole house electric and it's sorta paying me.

    I suppose there are places where you could only be charging at home, but around most cities there are charging stations everywhere and if you need a charge on the road it's not a problem. I live in California which has 50% of all the nations EV's, so there is charging everywhere, drug stores, big box stores, restaurants, malls, movies theaters etc.

    Lord of Planar, using a heater does take some mileage away and I personally would not go where the temp is freezing, you are speaking to the exceptions not the average. Also if you drive an EV you soon learn little things that will give you greater mileage. Yes, going faster uses more just like a gas car uses more gas but I drive freeway speeds with no problem.

    Remember, it was only 2003 when Tesla shocked the world into electrics and look where they are now. Once all the scientists agreed that heavier than air flight was impossible, I think they may have been wrong, since 1903 we have gone to the moon and back. Cars will keep evolving, electrics, fuel cells or some totally new source yet to be thought of, who knows.

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    It's just a matter of time.

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Electrics are not for everyone, now, but nothing ever started at the top of it's ability - improvements happen over time. For the record, the very first cars were electric, not gas and now we are coming full circle.

    The range is constantly improving, 200 to 300 is available on most EV's. The cost of most is inline with many gas cars. You also have to factor that there are very generous rebates when you by an EV, from several sources. For example: With the rebates I got 35k car down to 24k, selling my older EV brought that down to 19K, but there are more savings that keep on giving. There is 2 years of 30 minutes free charging at a charging station and you can do that a couple of times a day if you want. 30 minutes usually gives me 80 to 90% charge. You also charge at home, the electric company gives you a special rate that is about half of the normal rate and because you are doing it at your house that rate applies to your whole house usage.

    Then consider the cost of gas versus electricity, I get an average of 160 miles per charge, if I were to charge entirely at home that would come to and average of $4.80 for a full charge. At current gas prices and mileages on a gas car what would 160 mile of driving cost you? My gasser gets 20 mpg, gas here gas has dropped from $3.89 to $3.09 a gallon (for now) and that would cost me $24.72 - if I were to charge only at home that would be over a $20 savings, but I take full advantage of the free charging offered so it's basically 0, add in the constant savings on the whole house electric and it's sorta paying me.

    I suppose there are places where you could only be charging at home, but around most cities there are charging stations everywhere and if you need a charge on the road it's not a problem. I live in California which has 50% of all the nations EV's, so there is charging everywhere, drug stores, big box stores, restaurants, malls, movies theaters etc.

    Lord of Planar, using a heater does take some mileage away and I personally would not go where the temp is freezing, you are speaking to the exceptions not the average. Also if you drive an EV you soon learn little things that will give you greater mileage. Yes, going faster uses more just like a gas car uses more gas but I drive freeway speeds with no problem.

    Remember, it was only 2003 when Tesla shocked the world into electrics and look where they are now. Once all the scientists agreed that heavier than air flight was impossible, I think they may have been wrong, since 1903 we have gone to the moon and back. Cars will keep evolving, electrics, fuel cells or some totally new source yet to be thought of, who knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaughtInThe View Post
    It's just a matter of time.
    From the OP link:

    ". . . . A mid-2018 report by JPMorgan Asset Management noted that the median global forecast by industry experts is 125 million EVs on the road worldwide by 2030, which would be less than 10 percent of the total. “I’m taking the ‘under’ rather than the ‘over,’ ” the report’s author, Michael Cembalest, added. . . . "
    "Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." --Marcus Aurelius

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    From the OP link:

    ". . . . A mid-2018 report by JPMorgan Asset Management noted that the median global forecast by industry experts is 125 million EVs on the road worldwide by 2030, which would be less than 10 percent of the total. “I’m taking the ‘under’ rather than the ‘over,’ ” the report’s author, Michael Cembalest, added. . . . "
    That's fine, but I file it under heavier than air flight is impossible. Don't forget, fuel cell cars are still EV's, heck even diesel trains are electric powered. I would hate to try and predict what will be in another decade or so, based on todays knowledge. Seeing as how that report was in 2018 a lot can change in 11 years. We were barely able to launch our first satellite in 1958, 1969 we landed on the moon - a lot can change in 11 years.

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Cutting through the propaganda.





    Why electric cars still don’t live up to the hype


    ". . . ​Mass adoption of electric cars, however, cannot occur unless they can do everything gas-powered vehicles can do — including the ability to go hundreds of miles before refueling, and refueling easily — at a comparable total cost of ownership. Otherwise, electric cars will be a niche product for upper-income folks. And government subsidies for them will be a regressive transfer of social resources in return for little climate benefit, given that the U.S. power grid the cars draw from is 64 percent fueled by coal and gas.

    Nothing happened in the past decade to undermine this basic critique. Government, both federal and state, subsidized electric-car sales and production to the tune of several billion dollars, yet as of March 2019, there were 1.18 million electric vehicles on the road in the United States — less than one-half of 1 percent of the total. Households earning $100,000 or more per year own two-thirds of EVs, with many of the owners benefiting from a $7,500 federal tax credit.

    Globally, electric-car adoption is also modest relative to optimistic forecasts. Of the 86 million cars sold in the top 54 world markets in 2018, 1.26 million, or 1.5 percent, were EVs. That’s nowhere near then-Nissan chief executive Carlos Ghosn’s 2010 prognostication that EVs would account for 10 percent of global sales by 2020. . . .

    Established automakers are indeed about to ramp up electric offerings, providing Tesla with its most serious competition yet.

    They are doing so, however, more as a response to regulatory pressure from governments — even after the Trump administration scaled back fuel-economy standards — than as a response to demonstrated customer demand, which lately has favored gas-powered SUVs and pickups.

    The problem, as industry leaders acknowledge in their quieter moments, is still the same: getting the total cost of owning an EV down to that of a gas equivalent. There’s uncertainty about key variables such as how much more battery costs will fall and the global supply of rare-earth elements. . . . "


    Unfortunately, it's a catch 22 issue.

    There would be greater demand for electric cars if the infrastructure to support them was widespread..but there won't be widespread infrastructure until there is greater demand for electric cars.
    If you have to resort to insults, name calling, ad hominem attacks, straw men, red herrings, appeals to authority, and other dirty debate tactics, the veracity of you argument is questionable.

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    Re: Why Electric Cars Still Don't Live Up to the Hype

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Case View Post
    I've posted several places several times that I'd like to have a small electric to zip around town in.
    I still do more than ever. Over the holidays and a California Christmas, I got to drive a rented Tesla
    and take a ride from San Jose up to Big Basin state park. Wow! A 60 mile round trip up a winding
    mountain road. The car never shifts gears, it's perfectly smooth no down shifting or braking. It
    does have brakes and a brake pedal but you don't have to use them. When you take your foot off
    the "Gas" pedal, regenerative braking brings you to a nice smooth stop. Charging time is still an issue
    for long trips. The acceleration is positively phenomenal - so is the price tag.
    I have a Prius that gets me 60 MPG. I love it. I am looking at the plug in model that does 25 mile electric then does hybrid. It is hilarious to see the anger that electric cars elicit.
    Never pet a dog that is on fire.

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