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Renewable Energy and Electric Cars Pressure Oil Economically as Well as Environmentally

Yep.

I wonder what chemical waste products are involved?
All the way through--mining, purifying, battery construction, battery recycling, post recycling disposal. Hydrocarbon toxicity is well understood. Reactive metals, not so much.
 
It's one of the possibilities. The engineering is still not close. At least you are not suggesting carrying it as liquid H2. That's scary. Pressurized gas is dangerous enough.

I think H2 would be good in fixed units like commercial buildings or homes. Moving it on the roads gets rather scary though. Crack H2 out of water when there is excess electricity from solar for example. Store it as hydrogen. Then use fuel cells to convert back to electricity as needed. I don't like the idea of hydrogen fuel cars, but people could make their own fuel this way if that was their thing.
 
All the way through--mining, purifying, battery construction, battery recycling, post recycling disposal. Hydrocarbon toxicity is well understood. Reactive metals, not so much.

Purifying an ore is less involved than separating a mix of products.
 
On the cusp. Famous last words.

That does not get into the toxicity when there is an damage to the casing or the use of rare minerals, such as cobalt. Mining cobalt in Africa and refining in China may get it out of the headlines, but it is not a pretty business and prone to foreign policy hazard, much like oil in the 1970s. You are talking a thousandfold increase in consumption of something rare and not renewable.

Tell me it's good for the environment. I dare you.

You've cherry-picked all my statements to cobalt mining. I dare you to show us any mining or resource extraction that is "good for the environment". Oil, coal, cobalt, natural gas, whatever... The next question you have to ask yourself is what has the MOST and WORST impact?
 
Purifying an ore is less involved than separating a mix of products.
You are separating a mix. Else cobalt becomes prohibitively expensive, like molybdenum and platinum.
 
You've cherry-picked all my statements to cobalt mining. I dare you to show us any mining or resource extraction that is "good for the environment". Oil, coal, cobalt, natural gas, whatever... The next question you have to ask yourself is what has the MOST and WORST impact?
Mostly, I ignored them. This is a commonly understood bottleneck to ramping up lithium batter production.

What is the worst impact. No question there. It's political. Persons such as yourself are pushing completely unrealistic programs on the assumption that unobtainium will be available.
 
You are separating a mix. Else cobalt becomes prohibitively expensive, like molybdenum and platinum.

It's ready over $200/kg. I find it hard to believe that recycling it out of used batteries is cost effective though. Such a small percentage per battery. How many thousands of batteries are needed to get back 1 kg?
 
Mostly, I ignored them. This is a commonly understood bottleneck to ramping up lithium batter production.

What is the worst impact. No question there. It's political. Persons such as yourself are pushing completely unrealistic programs on the assumption that unobtainium will be available.

I power my Plug in Hybrid electric car from my renewable energy, so I can tell you first-hand that it is obtainable.

SolarWind_Chevy_Volt_2_Pics.jpg

Many others are doing things in a similar fashion. Over 3 million homes have installed solar PV systems since 2008. Many electric car owners are powering with solar, and I have spoken to many of them through my Plug-in-Hybrid user's group.
 
I power my Plug in Hybrid electric car from my renewable energy, so I can tell you first-hand that it is obtainable.

Many others are doing things in a similar fashion. Over 3 million homes have installed solar PV systems since 2008. Many electric car owners are powering with solar, and I have spoken to many of them through my Plug-in-Hybrid user's group.
No one is talking about obtaining power. I was talking about obtaining materials to manufacture the batteries.

It's like your wind and solar power. For all the recent upgrades, it's about 3% of electric power in the US. Hydro-electric still dwarfs the output.
 
No one is talking about obtaining power. I was talking about obtaining materials to manufacture the batteries.

It's like your wind and solar power. For all the recent upgrades, it's about 3% of electric power in the US. Hydro-electric still dwarfs the output.

But you are talking about "obtaining power". You stated earlier that oil and coal extraction is a "known entity", so it's of little concern. I suggest you be a little more honest with your posts. That is freaking ridiculous. Take a look at coal tailing ponds. Take a look at the hazardous wastes associated with oil extraction and refining. Yes, cobalt mining has some issues. But once I have that battery, I am not recharging it every day with products that create hazardous wastes (including radioactive wastes). Every day - every time you fill your automobile tank. Not to mention your errors - Wind power accounts for about 8% of US electricity. Residential solar PVs about 3%. Both are the fastest growing generation methods, and were virtually NIL 10-15 years ago.
 
Those pushing for electric cars seem not to understand the environmental damage of mining the resources needed.

China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining - Yale E360

Did you read your own link? It's not just electric cars. It's much more than that, and the area was mined long, long before electric cars.

Everything from computers to X-ray machines and aircraft engines needs one or more rare earth elements for magnets, lenses, and other functions. Tech companies from Apple to Huawei to Tesla would be hard pressed to continue their growth trajectories if supplies of rare earth elements such as dysprosium (Dy), europium (Eu), terbium (Tb), and thulium (Tm) were limited or became too expensive.
 
Samsung Releasing Smartphone Using Graphene Battery for 15-30 Minute Charging in 2020 – NextBigFuture.com

Samsung will release a smartphone powered by new graphene battery technology that can fully charge in under 30 minutes in 2020, or possibly 2021. This will be three to five times faster than today’s lithium-ion batteries which take about 90 minutes to charge.
...
In theory, a battery based on the “graphene ball” material requires only 12 minutes to fully charge. Additionally, the battery can maintain a highly stable 60 degree Celsius temperature, with stable battery temperatures particularly key for electric vehicles.

Scientists Develop a Better Graphene Battery
The Spanish company Graphenano has introduced a graphene polymer battery that could allow electric vehicles to have a maximum range of a staggering 800 kilometers (497 miles). The battery can also be charged in just a few minutes.
 
Depends. According to the Austin report, there will be 1/3 more electrical power required. Most residential demand (non-EV charging) is down substantially in the evening. Commercial demand should also be down during those hours. Industrial demand will be down, unless facilities are 24/7 production entities. I believe this is why Utilities aren't as concerned about grid upgrades, but instead, are focusing on a SMART grid.
We are a long way from our grid being able to handle the extra nearly 5 trillion Kwhs per year we currently get from gasoline.
 
[FONT=&quot]Energy[/FONT]
[h=1]Climate Champion China Ramping Up Government Funding for Fossil Fuel[/h][FONT=&quot]Guest essay by Eric Worrall Renewable advocates are concerned some fossil fuel projects are receiving a share of China’s “new energy” subsidies. Why China’s Renewable Energy Transition Is Losing MomentumBY MICHAEL STANDAERT • SEPTEMBER 26, 2019 Growth of wind and solar in China is slowing as government funding for green energy falters and upgrades to the…
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[h=1]Some Chinese Electric Cars Are ‘Simply Worthless’: Industry Body[/h][FONT=&quot]From CX Tech By Dave Yin / Sep 27, 2019 06:40 PM / Business & Tech Photo: VCG It’s “inevitable” that China’s electric cars have little resale value and some are inherently worth little, according to one of China’s top auto industry bodies. In its latest weekly update on China’s ailing auto market, the China…
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But you are talking about "obtaining power". You stated earlier that oil and coal extraction is a "known entity", so it's of little concern. I suggest you be a little more honest with your posts. That is freaking ridiculous. Take a look at coal tailing ponds. Take a look at the hazardous wastes associated with oil extraction and refining. Yes, cobalt mining has some issues. But once I have that battery, I am not recharging it every day with products that create hazardous wastes (including radioactive wastes). Every day - every time you fill your automobile tank. Not to mention your errors - Wind power accounts for about 8% of US electricity. Residential solar PVs about 3%. Both are the fastest growing generation methods, and were virtually NIL 10-15 years ago.
This is a red herring. Power is available from the grid, so obtaining it is a nonfactor. Pay the price and it's yours.

I would rather deal with radioactive waste than retired batteries. At least it would be compact. Salt dome storage is near ideal. For high bulk toxic waste, like batteries, it is much more difficult. Recycling is always full of promise and short on delivery. As for coal tailing ponds, you should take a second look and that is an area being phased out.

Did you read your own link? It's not just electric cars. It's much more than that, and the area was mined long, long before electric cars.

Everything from computers to X-ray machines and aircraft engines needs one or more rare earth elements for magnets, lenses, and other functions. Tech companies from Apple to Huawei to Tesla would be hard pressed to continue their growth trajectories if supplies of rare earth elements such as dysprosium (Dy), europium (Eu), terbium (Tb), and thulium (Tm) were limited or became too expensive.
You aren't reading your own posts. You propose about a 100,000% increase in mining and refining, both of which are done in politically unstable regions.
 
Did you read your own link? It's not just electric cars. It's much more than that, and the area was mined long, long before electric cars.

Everything from computers to X-ray machines and aircraft engines needs one or more rare earth elements for magnets, lenses, and other functions. Tech companies from Apple to Huawei to Tesla would be hard pressed to continue their growth trajectories if supplies of rare earth elements such as dysprosium (Dy), europium (Eu), terbium (Tb), and thulium (Tm) were limited or became too expensive.

Agreed, Shows how hypocritical you lefties are.
 
We are a long way from our grid being able to handle the extra nearly 5 trillion Kwhs per year we currently get from gasoline.

I offered up a link that talks about this in detail, with experts from different areas of the country. The experts discuss the "Smart Grid", and how it can accomodate the extra load of EV charging. You simply blurt out a statement with no backing.
 
This is a red herring. Power is available from the grid, so obtaining it is a nonfactor. Pay the price and it's yours.

I would rather deal with radioactive waste than retired batteries. At least it would be compact. Salt dome storage is near ideal. For high bulk toxic waste, like batteries, it is much more difficult. Recycling is always full of promise and short on delivery. As for coal tailing ponds, you should take a second look and that is an area being phased out.

You aren't reading your own posts. You propose about a 100,000% increase in mining and refining, both of which are done in politically unstable regions.

More unsubstantiated nonsense. Show me one deep repository (salt dome) storage site in the world for radioactive wastes. Ironically enough, the one site being considered in the US, Yucca Mountain, was abandoned because they found a man-made radioactive isotope deep underground. It was from the WW-II atomic testing, and it showed that water had penetrated the underground area.

Please provide a link for your 100,000% statement, which is probably equally unsubstantiated.
 
I offered up a link that talks about this in detail, with experts from different areas of the country. The experts discuss the "Smart Grid", and how it can accomodate the extra load of EV charging. You simply blurt out a statement with no backing.
The difference is in orders of magnitude.
Current electrical usage is 3,946 X10^9 Kwh
• U.S. electricity consumption 2018 | Statista
Current gasoline consumption is 142 X 10^9 gallons, or 4,686 X 10^9 Kwh.
The question is can the electrical grid handle an additional 118% of current capacity, by moving around duty cycle demands?
It might be able to, but in moving the bulk of the demand to what is now off hours,
you will force the price higher in that time window.
 
More unsubstantiated nonsense. Show me one deep repository (salt dome) storage site in the world for radioactive wastes. Ironically enough, the one site being considered in the US, Yucca Mountain, was abandoned because they found a man-made radioactive isotope deep underground. It was from the WW-II atomic testing, and it showed that water had penetrated the underground area.

Please provide a link for your 100,000% statement, which is probably equally unsubstantiated.
Salt domes are the natural place to store things for centuries. That does not make them perfect, merely excellent. Lack of deep underground storage has more to do with politics than utility.

That's your 100,000% statement. It's just replacing gas/diesel/CNG vehicle production with EV production in round numbers.
 
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The difference is in orders of magnitude.
Current electrical usage is 3,946 X10^9 Kwh
• U.S. electricity consumption 2018 | Statista
Current gasoline consumption is 142 X 10^9 gallons, or 4,686 X 10^9 Kwh.
The question is can the electrical grid handle an additional 118% of current capacity, by moving around duty cycle demands?
It might be able to, but in moving the bulk of the demand to what is now off hours,
you will force the price higher in that time window.

The experts from the city of Austin say that, "if the entire city switched to EVs, there would be a 1/3 increase". Other cities may be slightly higher or lower, but certainly not 118%. For one thing, your figures ignore the superior efficiency of power conversion of electric vehicles. And your armchair mathematics, undoubtedly overlooked many other factors, such as the contribution of renewables.
 
Salt domes are the natural place to store things for centuries. That does not make them perfect, merely excellent. Lack of deep underground storage has more to do with politics than utility.

That's your 100,000% statement. It's just replacing gas/diesel/CNG vehicle production with EV production in round numbers.

Wrong on the first statement. Unsubstantiated on the 2nd statement.
 
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