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Renewable Energy and Electric Cars Pressure Oil Economically as Well as Environmentally

Media_Truth said:
For reasons I mentioned, EVs are far superior to gasoline-powered vehicles. Batteries are coming down in cost, and there are major efforts underway to completely recycle the batteries. As mentioned, RANGE is not an issue for over 99% of vehicular trips. EV owners, including myself easily figure out ways to deal with range. As a matter-of-fact, there is a large circle of EV owners who want less range from their EV. They want less batteries, and an associated lower cost. The manufacturer could then make more vehicles, with fewer batteries.
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I'm about to buy a new small electric motorcycle from zhong Chen in china. Like an electric Honda Grom. 45 MPH 30 mile range riding it like you stole it

Only $3200 out the door. Tax, license, the whole bit.

No more gas to work no more paying for parking. And the place I'm living now has a big array, so solar powered to boot.
 
Media_Truth said:
My purpose is not to criticize the future of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Currently, they are behind the eight-ball, and electric vehicles are already here and very viable.
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One of the beauties of EVs is that they don't care where their electrons come from.

If some new tech comes on line, some new energy source or storage method like a file cell might just be an upgrade. Swapped out for the batteries.

Another thing rarely talked about if a bunch of EVs plugged into the grid represent the holy grail: grid storage.
 
What if...? said:
One of the beauties of EVs is that they don't care where their electrons come from.

If some new tech comes on line, some new energy source or storage method like a file cell might just be an upgrade. Swapped out for the batteries.

Another thing rarely talked about if a bunch of EVs plugged into the grid represent the holy grail: grid storage.
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Absolutely - fleets of electric cars are a great application for storage of renewable energy. I already have renewables, but now that I am going to electric vehicles, I just got a quote on a PV system on my garage roof. Love the electric motorcycle idea!!!

EV_Charging_Photo.JPG
 
Media_Truth said:
My purpose is not to criticize the future of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Currently, they are behind the eight-ball, and electric vehicles are already here and very viable.
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In reality the hydrogen fuel cell could replace the heavy battery later.
But do you understand we do not have the infrastructure in place for ether hydrogen or battery EVs to play a major role.
Hybrids like your could, but a high percentage of pure EVs would swamp the electrical grid.
 
Media_Truth said:
Poor planning by the officer. A Tesla has about a 300-mile range. That isn't much difference than the mileage of an IC car, with a tank of gas. If he would have run out of gas, would you have reported it?
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He would have taken five minutes at a gas station earlier in the day.
 
longview said:
In reality the hydrogen fuel cell could replace the heavy battery later.
But do you understand we do not have the infrastructure in place for ether hydrogen or battery EVs to play a major role.
Hybrids like your could, but a high percentage of pure EVs would swamp the electrical grid.
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Infrastruture will adapt as the number of EVs increase. Residential Solar PVs are peak-load producers, and could play a much more major role. The beauty of EV charging is that it can be done, when best-suited for Utility demand. When a vehicle has a 150-mile to 300-mile, and the average daily mileage in the USA is 29 miles, that leaves a lot of room for flexibility. Thinking outside the box --->

1. Utilities could offer discount-rate electricity during their minimal loading hours. This would encourage EV owners to charge during those times.
2. Many homes currently have 2 or more gasoline-powered automobiles. If they changed one to an EV, they could achieve the savings associated with cheaper electricity, over gasoline. They would also have more flexibility in regard to charging times.
3. Other households may elect to have 2 EVs. This would offer a lot of flexibility of charging one, while the other is in use.
4. This one is really outside the box, because the battery modules of EVs are currently not serviceable by the owner. However, if this could somehow change, and the battery banks could easily be interchanged, one could have a spare battery bank that could be home charging, with renewables, while the vehicle is in use.
 
Media_Truth said:
Infrastruture will adapt as the number of EVs increase. Residential Solar PVs are peak-load producers, and could play a much more major role. The beauty of EV charging is that it can be done, when best-suited for Utility demand. When a vehicle has a 150-mile to 300-mile, and the average daily mileage in the USA is 29 miles, that leaves a lot of room for flexibility. Thinking outside the box --->

1. Utilities could offer discount-rate electricity during their minimal loading hours. This would encourage EV owners to charge during those times.
2. Many homes currently have 2 or more gasoline-powered automobiles. If they changed one to an EV, they could achieve the savings associated with cheaper electricity, over gasoline. They would also have more flexibility in regard to charging times.
3. Other households may elect to have 2 EVs. This would offer a lot of flexibility of charging one, while the other is in use.
4. This one is really outside the box, because the battery modules of EVs are currently not serviceable by the owner. However, if this could somehow change, and the battery banks could easily be interchanged, one could have a spare battery bank that could be home charging, with renewables, while the vehicle is in use.
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Somebody should patent number four. A separate chassis with batteries could somehow be used, with a quick-disconnect-clamping system.
 
Media_Truth said:
Somebody should patent number four. A separate chassis with batteries could somehow be used, with a quick-disconnect-clamping system.
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[FONT=&quot]Oil and Gas[/FONT]
[h=1]First solid bitumen test shipment on its way from Alberta to China[/h][FONT=&quot]From Mining.com A test shipment of bitumen oil from Alberta is on its way to China, but it didn’t get to a British Columbia port by pipeline – it was moved by train through Prince Rupert in a semi-solid form commonly known as neatbit. Melius Energy in Calgary is not the first company to propose…
[/FONT]
 
Jack Hays said:
[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/28/first-solid-bitumen-test-shipment-on-its-way-from-alberta-to-china/"]
meliusenergycontainer.jpg
[/URL]Oil and Gas[/FONT]
[h=1]First solid bitumen test shipment on its way from Alberta to China[/h][FONT="]From Mining.com A test shipment of bitumen oil from Alberta is on its way to China, but it didn’t get to a British Columbia port by pipeline – it was moved by train through Prince Rupert in a semi-solid form commonly known as neatbit. Melius Energy in Calgary is not the first company to propose…
[/FONT]
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Non-sequitur...
 
longview said:
In reality the hydrogen fuel cell could replace the heavy battery later.
But do you understand we do not have the infrastructure in place for ether hydrogen or battery EVs to play a major role.
Hybrids like your could, but a high percentage of pure EVs would swamp the electrical grid.
Click to expand...
Hydrogen is easy to produce at a fixed location. Converting the gasoline infrastructure to H2 would be simple. It's the vehicle engineering that is the problem. Hydrogen is too volatile and the catalysts are too expensive.
 
Media_Truth said:
My purpose is not to criticize the future of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Currently, they are behind the eight-ball, and electric vehicles are already here and very viable.
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Not very viable. The scaling up problems are significant and the environmental impact horrific, much worse than gasoline cars. Fuel cells, if practical, solve both problems.
 
Jay59 said:
Not very viable. The scaling up problems are significant and the environmental impact horrific, much worse than gasoline cars. Fuel cells, if practical, solve both problems.
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You should probably research further. Electric cars can be powered by the sun or wind. Batteries are on the cusp of being recycled. The technology is there, and the logistics will follow:

How to recycle lithium batteries: Efficient approach to leaching lithium and cobalt from recycled batteries -- ScienceDaily

The team's hydrometallurgical method can recover both cobalt and lithium in their laboratory-scale tests....

The grid can adapt to growing demand. Utilities can offer EV owners reduced rates to charge during low peak hours. With a 150-300 mile range, and the fact that the average American commute is 29 miles, EV owners have a lot of flexibility on when to charge. EVs are NOT "environmentally horrific". You should take a closer look at the environmental degradation centered around oil and internal combustion engines.
 
Media_Truth said:
Infrastruture will adapt as the number of EVs increase. Residential Solar PVs are peak-load producers, and could play a much more major role. The beauty of EV charging is that it can be done, when best-suited for Utility demand. When a vehicle has a 150-mile to 300-mile, and the average daily mileage in the USA is 29 miles, that leaves a lot of room for flexibility. Thinking outside the box --->

1. Utilities could offer discount-rate electricity during their minimal loading hours. This would encourage EV owners to charge during those times.
2. Many homes currently have 2 or more gasoline-powered automobiles. If they changed one to an EV, they could achieve the savings associated with cheaper electricity, over gasoline. They would also have more flexibility in regard to charging times.
3. Other households may elect to have 2 EVs. This would offer a lot of flexibility of charging one, while the other is in use.
4. This one is really outside the box, because the battery modules of EVs are currently not serviceable by the owner. However, if this could somehow change, and the battery banks could easily be interchanged, one could have a spare battery bank that could be home charging, with renewables, while the vehicle is in use.
Click to expand...
I think it could work, but you have to look at it with open eyes, Transport fuels use roughly 3 times as much energy as electrical usage,
to move a large portion of that to the electrical side, would require a much larger grid.
 
Jay59 said:
Hydrogen is easy to produce at a fixed location. Converting the gasoline infrastructure to H2 would be simple. It's the vehicle engineering that is the problem. Hydrogen is too volatile and the catalysts are too expensive.
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I think it is possible, but more like a last step, not the next one.
I think the easiest way to carry hydrogen around would be as a liquid hydrocarbon fuel, with a steam reformer to extract the hydrogen as needed.
We already have the infrastructure to distribute liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
 
longview said:
I think it could work, but you have to look at it with open eyes, Transport fuels use roughly 3 times as much energy as electrical usage,
to move a large portion of that to the electrical side, would require a much larger grid.
Click to expand...

The grid, in different areas of the country, varies in it's ability to support Electric Vehicles. Here's an interesting article that discusses the grid - current and future requirements. The Austin, TX situation gives a rough outline of anticipated loads in the future.

How Power Companies Plan to Meet Electric Vehicle Charging Needs | Digital Trends

“As of July [2015], there were 3,145 registered plug-in electric vehicles in the Austin area. This number is up from just 273 vehicles in 2011,” according to Karl Popham of Austin Energy. “Our current load is about one-third industrial, one-third commercial, and one-third residential. If all transportation switched to electric vehicles, it would be about the equivalent of adding one-third on top of our total current load.”
...

...The short version is that by implementing flexibility in charging, automakers and utilities can make the best use of available power resources. For example, solar power generation hits its peak efficiency from 2-4 p.m. each day, and by adding solar generation capacity near charging stations, extra power can be in place to charge EVs connected at workplaces during business hours. That’s important, but it’s a small step because about 80 percent of EV charging happens overnight at the owner’s residence.

To address that overnight demand, smart grids are being developed that begin charging EVs when evening power usage drops, or when electrical rates step down for the night. In both cases, managed charging allows utilities to offer lower pricing for flexible EV charging while avoiding the cost of wholesale upgrades to the grid.

There is a lot of other interesting discussion in that link. The focus seems to be on a "SMART" grid, and not grid expansion. My guess is that there will be different solutions required for different areas, and different Utility companies.
 
Media_Truth said:
The grid, in different areas of the country, varies in it's ability to support Electric Vehicles. Here's an interesting article that discusses the grid - current and future requirements. The Austin, TX situation gives a rough outline of anticipated loads in the future.

How Power Companies Plan to Meet Electric Vehicle Charging Needs | Digital Trends

“As of July [2015], there were 3,145 registered plug-in electric vehicles in the Austin area. This number is up from just 273 vehicles in 2011,” according to Karl Popham of Austin Energy. “Our current load is about one-third industrial, one-third commercial, and one-third residential. If all transportation switched to electric vehicles, it would be about the equivalent of adding one-third on top of our total current load.”
...

...The short version is that by implementing flexibility in charging, automakers and utilities can make the best use of available power resources. For example, solar power generation hits its peak efficiency from 2-4 p.m. each day, and by adding solar generation capacity near charging stations, extra power can be in place to charge EVs connected at workplaces during business hours. That’s important, but it’s a small step because about 80 percent of EV charging happens overnight at the owner’s residence.

To address that overnight demand, smart grids are being developed that begin charging EVs when evening power usage drops, or when electrical rates step down for the night. In both cases, managed charging allows utilities to offer lower pricing for flexible EV charging while avoiding the cost of wholesale upgrades to the grid.

There is a lot of other interesting discussion in that link. The focus seems to be on a "SMART" grid, and not grid expansion. My guess is that there will be different solutions required for different areas, and different Utility companies.
Click to expand...
You do understand that if we start charging a bunch of cars at night, that will become the period of peak load?
 
longview said:
You do understand that if we start charging a bunch of cars at night, that will become the period of peak load?
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Depends. According to the Austin report, there will be 1/3 more electrical power required. Most residential demand (non-EV charging) is down substantially in the evening. Commercial demand should also be down during those hours. Industrial demand will be down, unless facilities are 24/7 production entities. I believe this is why Utilities aren't as concerned about grid upgrades, but instead, are focusing on a SMART grid.
 
longview said:
You do understand that if we start charging a bunch of cars at night, that will become the period of peak load?
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We already know these guys have no critical thinking skills.
 
Media_Truth said:
You should probably research further. Electric cars can be powered by the sun or wind. Batteries are on the cusp of being recycled. The technology is there, and the logistics will follow:

How to recycle lithium batteries: Efficient approach to leaching lithium and cobalt from recycled batteries -- ScienceDaily

The team's hydrometallurgical method can recover both cobalt and lithium in their laboratory-scale tests....

The grid can adapt to growing demand. Utilities can offer EV owners reduced rates to charge during low peak hours. With a 150-300 mile range, and the fact that the average American commute is 29 miles, EV owners have a lot of flexibility on when to charge. EVs are NOT "environmentally horrific". You should take a closer look at the environmental degradation centered around oil and internal combustion engines.
Click to expand...
On the cusp. Famous last words.

That does not get into the toxicity when there is an damage to the casing or the use of rare minerals, such as cobalt. Mining cobalt in Africa and refining in China may get it out of the headlines, but it is not a pretty business and prone to foreign policy hazard, much like oil in the 1970s. You are talking a thousandfold increase in consumption of something rare and not renewable.

Tell me it's good for the environment. I dare you.
 
Jay59 said:
On the cusp. Famous last words.

That does not get into the toxicity when there is an damage to the casing or the use of rare minerals, such as cobalt. Mining cobalt in Africa and refining in China may get it out of the headlines, but it is not a pretty business and prone to foreign policy hazard, much like oil in the 1970s. You are talking a thousandfold increase in consumption of something rare and not renewable.

Tell me it's good for the environment. I dare you.
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Yep.

I wonder what chemical waste products are involved?
 
longview said:
I think it is possible, but more like a last step, not the next one.
I think the easiest way to carry hydrogen around would be as a liquid hydrocarbon fuel, with a steam reformer to extract the hydrogen as needed.
We already have the infrastructure to distribute liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
Click to expand...
It's one of the possibilities, though CNG might be better.

The engineering is still not close. At least you are not suggesting carrying it as liquid H2. That's scary.
 
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