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Electric Vehicle Sales Are Up in California, but there's a catch...

Fishking said:
I don't think that fear is irrational. Full EVs means you need to have an extra vehicle for anything longer than local commuting.
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I already said that this is ideal for most families with two cars, if only for convenience. But for every household with two cars, there's no sense in not having one of the cars be an EV.

Fishking said:
Plug in stations aren't available everywhere
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For practical purposes they are. The only exceptions are large mountain ranges, forests, and deserts for sight-seeing purposes where you can expect ranges of up to 150-200 miles. For anybody who's just interested in getting from point A to point B and don't want to sight-see overly much, there are plugin stations wherever you need them (at least within the state of CA).
and no one wants to sit around for hours between charges.
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Yes, this is the one objective inconvenience, and why each household would be wise to have at least one hybrid in addition to an EV.

Fishking said:
Plug-in hybrids are the way to go. Gives you enough range for most local driving to remain full electric but you can also take trips.
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In immediate local driving, sure, but a plug-in hybrid has a battery range of 25 miles. And I've done a lot more commuting and errand driving in a day than that. If my goal is to avoid carbon emissions, I'm not sure that's the way to go. If emissions-free driving is even remotely a concern, a full-on EV is better because it has a range of ~200 miles, which is perfectly sufficient for a day's worth of commuting and errands.
 
Cardinal said:
The lack of enthusiasm seems to be due to an irrational fear of range. Better messaging about recharging availability as well as other perks would probably lead to a change in consumer choices.
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Messaging doesn't build recharging stations in sufficient numbers to support wholesale replacement of fossil-fuel vehicles.


There is no "irrational fear" of range; range is a major downcheck for many people.
 
Bullseye said:
Messaging doesn't build recharging stations in sufficient numbers to support wholesale replacement of fossil-fuel vehicles.


There is no "irrational fear" of range; range is a major downcheck for many people.
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Already addressed in this thread.
 
Bullseye said:
I'm responding to the second post of the thread. So what?
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So I hardly see why you're worth repeating the entire thread for.

Jesus...
 
Cardinal said:
Most Americans use their cars for basic commuting and errands functions, which EV cars are more than up to the task for what with the incredibly widespread availability of recharge stations in just about every populated area in California (not the least of which is one's own home), and with average ranges of newer EV's being 150-200 miles. Most families have more than one car, so for the rarer long range trips through particularly unpopulated areas, it makes the most sense right now for families to own one EV and one hybrid.

And even for road trips, there are very few drives that will leave you stranded. I could go from Los Angeles to Las Vegas with enough recharge stations in between to meet my needs. That's a drive through sizable tracts of desert, if you're not already familiar with that route. I could also get to San Diego, San Francisco and Reno.

So, yes, fear of range is largely irrational right now, and that's a messaging problem. Also, how many Californians know that driving an EV gives you access to the carpool lane?
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Not sure you're qualified to speak for "most people". Yeah, there's the normal daily travel that an EV would eat up but they also do a lot of road trips where range is far more critical. And few folks can afford a vacation car and a everyday car, they have to be the same car.
 
TomFitz said:
I guess you didn’t read the text. It didn’t take three generations for digital storage to go from being listed in kilobytes to a gig being on an SD card. Every car company on the planet is working on electrics, or looking for a merger partner. I went to the touring Car Show this year, for the first time in several years. It was a desultory experience. The old spark was gone. Even the show cars were boring. And there was no excitement at all. Tesla wasn’t there at all. But Nissan and GM both had electrics on turntables, and everyone else had electric teasers. I think we may be seeing the swan song of the gasoline age. It will take a while, but the transformation has gained traction. When the high school kids start calling gas cars, gassers or stink pots, you’ll know the tipping point is fast approaching.After that, you won’t be able to give away most second hand gasoline cars.
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You detailed the new generation of tech as it happened, eg solid state memory. This is contradiction for the sake of being contradictory.

I suspect the swan song of the gasoline age will take another few decades. The range of a charge needs to exceed 1000 miles before they are practical outside of cities. Otherwise, charge times are much too long for cross country use. For electric to be truly practical we need a major breakthrough in battery tech or fuel cells. Conversion from gasoline to compressed gas will settle a lot of the issues of gasoline power, plus it's easier and less expensive.
 
Cardinal said:
For practical purposes they are. The only exceptions are large mountain ranges, forests, and deserts for sight-seeing purposes where you can expect ranges of up to 150-200 miles. For anybody who's just interested in getting from point A to point B and don't want to sight-see overly much, there are plugin stations wherever you need them (at least within the state of CA).
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Not even close...even in San Antonio, where I'm currently at, there aren't a lot of options. Expand that to all the little small towns everywhere and it's just not there. Not yet anyways.


In immediate local driving, sure, but a plug-in hybrid has a battery range of 25 miles. And I've done a lot more commuting and errand driving in a day than that. If my goal is to avoid carbon emissions, I'm not sure that's the way to go. If emissions-free driving is even remotely a concern, a full-on EV is better because it has a range of ~200 miles, which is perfectly sufficient for a day's worth of commuting and errands.
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That's why you plug in when you get there. My minivan gets 30 in a charge and my wife would plug in at the university and then be full for the drive home. We get over 1,000 miles on a tank of gas.

I think that's pretty damn good and it solves 90% of the problem.
 
Fishking said:
Not even close...even in San Antonio, where I'm currently at, there aren't a lot of options. Expand that to all the little small towns everywhere and it's just not there. Not yet anyways.




That's why you plug in when you get there. My minivan gets 30 in a charge and my wife would plug in at the university and then be full for the drive home. We get over 1,000 miles on a tank of gas.

I think that's pretty damn good and it solves 90% of the problem.
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Well, I'm sorry you live in Texas, but, you know...it's Texas. It's just not a state wholly devoted to zero-emission living. In California, however, you can get to pretty much wherever you want to go (unusually large wilderness areas notwithstanding).

But forget all of Texas, and let's just focus on San Antonio itself. You can do all of your errands and commuting just fine on an EV alone.

Open Charge Map

Also, you can plug your car in just fine right at home. And if you're a normal household, you probably have a second car, and that can be your hybrid.
 
Cardinal said:
In immediate local driving, sure, but a plug-in hybrid has a battery range of 25 miles. And I've done a lot more commuting and errand driving in a day than that. If my goal is to avoid carbon emissions, I'm not sure that's the way to go. If emissions-free driving is even remotely a concern, a full-on EV is better because it has a range of ~200 miles, which is perfectly sufficient for a day's worth of commuting and errands.
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Some PHEVs get a little more mileage.

The Volt and the Honda Clarity are Plug-In Hybrids with double battery packs. The Volt has a 54-mile range on electric, and the Clarity is in the mid-40 range. As of right now, GM has discontinued the Volt, and this will be it's last year. It's a great design though, and won 2017 Car of the Year, so I wouldn't be surprised if they bring it back.
 
Media_Truth said:
You've shifted the discussion, which was an EV as a 2nd vehicle. My family travels in an EV all the time. My background is Electrical Engineering. If you would have asked me in the 1990s, if "A battery-operated car could travel 200 miles on a single charge?", I would have said "No Way". I am now a firm believer. You state that EVs aren't selling because "they are not there yet". I emphatically disagree!!! The reason they are not totally mainstream is that most people have NOT tried them, and the auto companies aren't advertising them. Have you ever driven one? Look at EV owner satisfaction rates.


As an Electrical Engineer, I am so impressed, that I will go so far to say, that an Internal Combustion engine used car will be totally worthless in about ten years. They will go the way of the flip-top phone.
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As an CA grid system operator I say your wrong.
 
Bullseye said:
Messaging doesn't build recharging stations in sufficient numbers to support wholesale replacement of fossil-fuel vehicles.


There is no "irrational fear" of range; range is a major downcheck for many people.
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90% of people can’t tell you how far thier car will go on a tank of gas, and none of them worried about it when they bought their last car.

Fear of change.

As the electric charging infrastructure continues to grow, that will change. As battery capacity continues to grow,that will disappear.

For most people, a range of 200 miles will get them through a week of normal use. And since chargers will eventually be in most garages, people will always start their day with a full charge.

I am considering the option. After all, you can rent a nice car for a long trip for the cost of two car payments, if you’re worried about range.
 
Media_Truth said:
Some PHEVs get a little more mileage.

The Volt and the Honda Clarity are Plug-In Hybrids with double battery packs. The Volt has a 54-mile range on electric, and the Clarity is in the mid-40 range. As of right now, GM has discontinued the Volt, and this will be it's last year. It's a great design though, and won 2017 Car of the Year, so I wouldn't be surprised if they bring it back.
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It won the 2010 Car of the Year as well. It had the highest owner satisfaction of any GM vehicle.

Used Volts don’t stay on lots long.
 
PoS said:
Keep on reading, and maybe you'll figure it out one day...
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Well I figured it out well enough to have a plug in hybrid that has saved me thousands, and to have solar panels which also save.

It seems by your comments that you resent such things, and/or take some pleasure as we work the kinks out as they develop. True, there are the pleasant memories of low riding in an old Chevy hardtop, eyeballing chicks while smoking Marlboro Longhorns, but all good things come to an end.

What's your beef with progress? Buggy whips are gone by and large.
 
Nickyjo said:
Well I figured it out well enough to have a plug in hybrid that has saved me thousands, and to have solar panels which also save.

It seems by your comments that you resent such things, and/or take some pleasure as we work the kinks out as they develop. True, there are the pleasant memories of low riding in an old Chevy hardtop, eyeballing chicks while smoking Marlboro Longhorns, but all good things come to an end.

What's your beef with progress? Buggy whips are gone by and large.
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Strawman fallacy- as expected.
 
TomFitz said:
90% of people can’t tell you how far thier car will go on a tank of gas, and none of them worried about it when they bought their last car.

Fear of change.

As the electric charging infrastructure continues to grow, that will change. As battery capacity continues to grow,that will disappear.

For most people, a range of 200 miles will get them through a week of normal use. And since chargers will eventually be in most garages, people will always start their day with a full charge.

I am considering the option. After all, you can rent a nice car for a long trip for the cost of two car payments, if you’re worried about range.
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I read a very interesting article about range of electric vehicles. It mentioned that too many people are wanting more range from EVs. Auto makers are adding more and more batteries. The cars are getting heavier and heavier. Meanwhile, those batteries could have been split up, and used for 2 electric cars, and still satisfy the driving needs of 99.9% of users. I would personally be happy with an EV range of 100 or 200 miles. The Tesla Model 3 published ranges (enough is enough):

REAL BATTERY RANGE AND ENERGY CONSUMPTION
Average Energy Consumption 205 Wh/mi | 127 wh per km*
City Winter Range 216 Mi | 347 Km
City Winter Consumption 255 Wh/mi | 158 Wh/km
Combined Winter Range 193 Mi | 311 Km
Combined Winter Consumption 285 Wh/mi | 177 Wh/km
Highway Winter Range 162 Mi | 260 Km
Highway Winter Consumption 340 Wh/mi | 211 Wh/km
City Range Mild Temp 344 Mi | 347 Km
City Consumption Mild Temp 160 Wh/mi | 99 Wh/km
Combined Range Mild Temp 268 Mi | 432 Km
Combined Consumption Mild Temp 205 Wh/mi | 127 Wh/km
Highway Range Mild Temp 216 Mi | 347 Km
Highway Consumption Mild Temp 255 Wh/mi | 158 Wh/km
Ranges for winter is actual to temperature of -10°C (14°F) and heat on. Summer, spring or autumn temperature is set to +23°C (73°F) in example, air conditioning off and no wind.
 
TomFitz said:
90% of people can’t tell you how far thier car will go on a tank of gas, and none of them worried about it when they bought their last car.

Fear of change.

As the electric charging infrastructure continues to grow, that will change. As battery capacity continues to grow,that will disappear.

For most people, a range of 200 miles will get them through a week of normal use. And since chargers will eventually be in most garages, people will always start their day with a full charge.

I am considering the option. After all, you can rent a nice car for a long trip for the cost of two car payments, if you’re worried about range.
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Classic liberal distain for the "ordinary people". They just don't know what's good for them, do they? Oh, and I guarantee you I pay less in gas for a long trip than ONE car payment. And I don't have to hunt around for the charging station in Buffalo Chip, Wyoming at 11:30pm; there a 24hr AM/PM on the main street. :cool:
 
Bullseye said:
Classic liberal distain for the "ordinary people". They just don't know what's good for them, do they? Oh, and I guarantee you I pay less in gas for a long trip than ONE car payment. And I don't have to hunt around for the charging station in Buffalo Chip, Wyoming at 11:30pm; there a 24hr AM/PM on the main street. :cool:
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FACT that most non-EV drivers don't know ---> Almost all EV charges are accomplished from the owner's garage, either with a 110-Volt outlet or a 220-Volt outlet. That's what "ordinary people" do.
 
Media_Truth said:
FACT that most non-EV drivers don't know ---> Almost all EV charges are accomplished from the owner's garage, either with a 110-Volt outlet or a 220-Volt outlet. That's what "ordinary people" do.
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I pretty sure most folk DO know that. It's not rocket science.
 
Bullseye said:
I pretty sure most folk DO know that. It's not rocket science.
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I was responding to this your comment ---> "And I don't have to hunt around for the charging station in Buffalo Chip, Wyoming at 11:30pm; there a 24hr AM/PM on the main street." I live in Colorado. I've owned my car for more than a year, and I have never once charged it at a charging station.
 
Media_Truth said:
I was responding to this your comment ---> "And I don't have to hunt around for the charging station in Buffalo Chip, Wyoming at 11:30pm; there a 24hr AM/PM on the main street." I live in Colorado. I've owned my car for more than a year, and I have never once charged it at a charging station.
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Good for you - my point was for people who go on road trips for vacations and such. If the farthest you ever drive is a few miles to the office or the market or the beach an EV is fine.
 
Bullseye said:
Good for you - my point was for people who go on road trips for vacations and such. If the farthest you ever drive is a few miles to the office or the market or the beach an EV is fine.
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Yup, EVs lack the versatility and fuel efficiency of gasoline cars. Why would someone limit themselves by choosing an inferior tech?
 
Cardinal said:
Most Americans use their cars for basic commuting and errands functions, which EV cars are more than up to the task for what with the incredibly widespread availability of recharge stations in just about every populated area in California (not the least of which is one's own home), and with average ranges of newer EV's being 150-200 miles. Most families have more than one car, so for the rarer long range trips through particularly unpopulated areas, it makes the most sense right now for families to own one EV and one hybrid.

And even for road trips, there are very few drives that will leave you stranded. I could go from Los Angeles to Las Vegas with enough recharge stations in between to meet my needs. That's a drive through sizable tracts of desert, if you're not already familiar with that route. I could also get to San Diego, San Francisco and Reno.

So, yes, fear of range is largely irrational right now, and that's a messaging problem. Also, how many Californians know that driving an EV gives you access to the carpool lane?
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How far do you have to commute and what is the range of your electronic vehicle? Does your employer have adequate charging stations?
 
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