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Tesla's Gigafactory in Shanghai

Bergslagstroll said:
Tesla also developing a one million miles battery.

"Last April, Elon Musk promised that Tesla would soon be able to power its electric cars for more than 1 million miles over the course of their lifespan. At the time, the claim seemed a bit much. That’s more than double the mileage Tesla owners can expect to get out of their car’s current battery packs, which are already well beyond the operational range of most other EV batteries. It just didn’t seem real—except now it appears that it is.

Earlier this month, a group of battery researchers at Dalhousie University, which has an exclusive agreement with Tesla, published a paper in The Journal of the Electrochemical Society describing a lithium-ion battery that “should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1 million miles” while losing less than 10 percent of its energy capacity during its lifetime.

Led by physicist Jeff Dahn, one of the world’s foremost lithium-ion researchers, the Dalhousie group showed that its battery significantly outperforms any similar lithium-ion battery previously reported. They noted their battery could be especially useful for self-driving robotaxis and long-haul electric trucks, two products Tesla is developing."

Tesla May Soon Have a Battery That Can Last a Million Miles | WIRED
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This will be the straw that broke the fossil fuel industry's back. If this comes to fruition, say goodbye to gasoline powered vehicles. Already Li-Ion batteries are good for 3000-4000 charge cycles. Putting that in perspective, even if somebody charged everyday (very-very unlikely), they would get over 10 years of operation.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Tesla also developing a one million miles battery.

"Last April, Elon Musk promised that Tesla would soon be able to power its electric cars for more than 1 million miles over the course of their lifespan. At the time, the claim seemed a bit much. That’s more than double the mileage Tesla owners can expect to get out of their car’s current battery packs, which are already well beyond the operational range of most other EV batteries. It just didn’t seem real—except now it appears that it is.

Earlier this month, a group of battery researchers at Dalhousie University, which has an exclusive agreement with Tesla, published a paper in The Journal of the Electrochemical Society describing a lithium-ion battery that “should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1 million miles” while losing less than 10 percent of its energy capacity during its lifetime.

Led by physicist Jeff Dahn, one of the world’s foremost lithium-ion researchers, the Dalhousie group showed that its battery significantly outperforms any similar lithium-ion battery previously reported. They noted their battery could be especially useful for self-driving robotaxis and long-haul electric trucks, two products Tesla is developing."

Tesla May Soon Have a Battery That Can Last a Million Miles | WIRED
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This may or may not be practical.

This of course would be a natural research project for Tesla. If they can patent such a battery, they would have gold falling from the sky... well, not literally.

It still needs to be cost competitive. Working in research and development myself, and seeing what the industry puts out to their stockholders.... I don't place any stock in such claims until it is a reality.

The likes of you, and Media Propaganda, already see it as fact!
 
Lord of Planar said:
This may or may not be practical.

This of course would be a natural research project for Tesla. If they can patent such a battery, they would have gold falling from the sky... well, not literally.

It still needs to be cost competitive. Working in research and development myself, and seeing what the industry puts out to their stockholders.... I don't place any stock in such claims until it is a reality.

The likes of you, and Media Propaganda, already see it as fact!
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We already have car batteries that are good for the life of most Internal Combustion engine cars. Show me a 10-15 year-old gasoline powered car, and I'll show you a money pit. Meanwhile electric cars have no pistons, cylinders and timing belts. No transmission. No exhaust system. No fuel injection. Not much can go wrong. Not only that, but I'll get places way ahead of you.

Li_IonCycleLIfe_DOD_Curve.JPG
 
Media_Truth said:
We already have car batteries that are good for the life of most Internal Combustion engine cars. Show me a 10-15 year-old gasoline powered car, and I'll show you a money pit. Meanwhile electric cars have no pistons, cylinders and timing belts. No transmission. No exhaust system. No fuel injection. Not much can go wrong. Not only that, but I'll get places way ahead of you.

View attachment 67264936
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I'm still driving an older sedan, a 2006 Impala, ready to turn 180k miles with no issues. Electric cars are still far more money for the same performance. That 2,200 cycles is unreasonable to go 180,000 miles because nobody is realistically going to always wait for near discharge before charging. If I go 160 miles between charges, than that 180k miles is 1125 charges. I never let my tank go low enough to have only 50 miles left in it, and I most certainly am not going to wait till y last 30 miles available before I recharge. I would charge at least every 100 miles. I would not be using optimum power usage, charge rates, charge times, etc. It;'s not practical for real life.

Then there is the "discharge current of 0.5 C."

We aren't going to see that optimum usage on the streets. I can assure you, such batteries do not last in real usage like they do in the laboratory.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I'm still driving an older sedan, a 2006 Impala, ready to turn 180k miles with no issues. Electric cars are still far more money for the same performance. That 2,200 cycles is unreasonable to go 180,000 miles because nobody is realistically going to always wait for near discharge before charging. If I go 160 miles between charges, than that 180k miles is 1125 charges. I never let my tank go low enough to have only 50 miles left in it, and I most certainly am not going to wait till y last 30 miles available before I recharge. I would charge at least every 100 miles. I would not be using optimum power usage, charge rates, charge times, etc. It;'s not practical for real life.

Then there is the "discharge current of 0.5 C."

We aren't going to see that optimum usage on the streets. I can assure you, such batteries do not last in real usage like they do in the laboratory.
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You are actually improving the efficiency of the batteries if you don't totally discharge. If you regularly don't discharge completely, you never reach the 80% depth of discharge, and your battery will operate for many more cycles. See the curve. Also, not all manufacturers use a 80% Depth of Discharge. Some pushed that envelope more than others, because they could easily meet warranty requirements, without risking battery degradation, and boast higher mileages.

I'll bet you've spent a lot more on your Impala than you are mentioning. Even regular tuneups, oil changes, etc, which aren't required with EVs end up costing a lot. Factor in timing belts, exhaust systems, etc; which are usually only good for 100,000 miles, and you've got some expensive repairs.
 
Media_Truth said:
You are actually improving the efficiency of the batteries if you don't totally discharge. If you regularly don't discharge completely, you never reach the 80% depth of discharge, and your battery will operate for many more cycles. See the curve. Also, not all manufacturers use a 80% Depth of Discharge. Some pushed that envelope more than others, because they could easily meet warranty requirements, without risking battery degradation, and boast higher mileages.

I'll bet you've spent a lot more on your Impala than you are mentioning. Even regular tuneups, oil changes, etc, which aren't required with EVs end up costing a lot. Factor in timing belts, exhaust systems, etc; which are usually only good for 100,000 miles, and you've got some expensive repairs.
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You are ignorant at how long modern cars last, I see.

100,000 miles between tune-ups.
 
Media_Truth said:
We already have car batteries that are good for the life of most Internal Combustion engine cars. Show me a 10-15 year-old gasoline powered car, and I'll show you a money pit. Meanwhile electric cars have no pistons, cylinders and timing belts. No transmission. No exhaust system. No fuel injection. Not much can go wrong. Not only that, but I'll get places way ahead of you.

View attachment 67264936
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A thing that could lead to swift shift away from fossil fuel cars if self driving cars. Because as you say electric cars needs a lot less maintenance and the energy cost is also lower. Also you will need lot less self driving taxis compared to privately owned cars that are mostly standing still unused.
 
Interesting development of aluminium batteries.

"Until now, aluminium batteries have used graphite cathodes, but the energy density of graphite has proved too low for the cells to be useful. The new cathode, described in Energy Storage Materials, could lay the path for low-cost, greener batteries that might one day compete with their lithium-ion counterparts.
“The material costs and environmental impacts that we envisage from our new concept are much lower than what we see today, making them feasible for large scale usage, such as solar cell parks, or storage of wind energy, for example,” said research lead Patrik Johansson, Professor at the Department of Physics at Sweden’s Chalmers University of Technology."

Organic cathode gives aluminium battery boost | The Engineer The Engineer

You also for example have very positive and impressive development of wind power in the UK.

Scotland Is Generating So Much Wind Energy It Could Power Two Scotlands

World's largest wind turbines to be built off Yorkshire coast | Environment | The Guardian
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Interesting development of aluminium batteries.

"Until now, aluminium batteries have used graphite cathodes, but the energy density of graphite has proved too low for the cells to be useful. The new cathode, described in Energy Storage Materials, could lay the path for low-cost, greener batteries that might one day compete with their lithium-ion counterparts.
“The material costs and environmental impacts that we envisage from our new concept are much lower than what we see today, making them feasible for large scale usage, such as solar cell parks, or storage of wind energy, for example,” said research lead Patrik Johansson, Professor at the Department of Physics at Sweden’s Chalmers University of Technology."

Organic cathode gives aluminium battery boost | The Engineer The Engineer

You also for example have very positive and impressive development of wind power in the UK.

Scotland Is Generating So Much Wind Energy It Could Power Two Scotlands

World's largest wind turbines to be built off Yorkshire coast | Environment | The Guardian
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That would be cool if they make aluminum batteries with the same energy density as LiIon!
 
Daimler is fully committed to electric cars.

"Inventor of the internal combustion engine and German multinational auto group Daimler has declared that it has no current plans to develop fossil fuel engines, as it shifts its focus to electric drivetrains and battery development.
It’s a massive statement from the company that encompasses Mercedes-Benz as well as several truck brands including Daimler Trucks, Mercedes-Benz Vans, Daimler Buses, generating 167.4 billion euros ($A272.7 billion) in revenue in 2018."

Daimler calls time on fossil fuel cars, draws praise from Musk | The Driven
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Daimler is fully committed to electric cars.

"Inventor of the internal combustion engine and German multinational auto group Daimler has declared that it has no current plans to develop fossil fuel engines, as it shifts its focus to electric drivetrains and battery development.
It’s a massive statement from the company that encompasses Mercedes-Benz as well as several truck brands including Daimler Trucks, Mercedes-Benz Vans, Daimler Buses, generating 167.4 billion euros ($A272.7 billion) in revenue in 2018."

Daimler calls time on fossil fuel cars, draws praise from Musk | The Driven
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That is really a major announcement. Mercedes-Benz is one of the most respected auto manufacturers in the world.
 
Media_Truth said:
That is really a major announcement. Mercedes-Benz is one of the most respected auto manufacturers in the world.
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Volkswagen are also making massive investments in electric cars.

"The world's biggest carmaker announced Friday that it had struck a deal with Sweden's Northvolt to build a giant battery factory in Germany. It also confirmed production dates for two new models key to the group's success.

The German company said production of lithium-ion batteries would begin in late 2023 or early 2024, a move that will be vital to Volkswagen's (VLKAF) ability to mount what it calls "the largest electric offensive in the automotive industry worldwide.""

Volkswagen electric car plans pick up pace with battery deal and model launches - CNN
 
PoS said:
Actually, Amazon began making profits in its 6th year. Tesla is now 16 years old and counting. Its sales seems good, but until I see it making a profit no way would I ever invest in such a company.
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The small investor doesn't have the capital to wait for a long term recap like corporations and billionaires do.

Tesla is basically running on intellectual property right now and is still considered risky by most market analysts.

I'm not knocking Tesla by any means, but my money wouldn't go in that direction.
 
What people need to understand is that Tesla is setting up to be more like a utility company.

Next time you see a charging station, check and see if its not made by Tesla.

Sure, they make cars. But what they're really doing is trying to corner the market for charging those cars. They want to control the gas stations, as it were.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Over 70 percent of car sales was electric or hybrids with around half being pure electric during september in Norway.

Norway: Electric car share at 54.5% in September - electrive.com

There Tesla Model 3 was also the most sold car model in Norway.

Norway Update: Tesla & Chinese EVs Could Spell Doom For Legacy Automakers | CleanTechnica
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If we had around a 100% tax on IC engine cars, and no tax on electric cars, we would do the same.

This is why electrics are competitive there.

It has been shown many times. Have you never seen the proof?
 
Lord of Planar said:
If we had around a 100% tax on IC engine cars, and no tax on electric cars, we would do the same.

This is why electrics are competitive there.

It has been shown many times. Have you never seen the proof?
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Oil companies, from the exploration phase to the refining phase, enjoy many subsidies.

Fossil Fuel Subsidies: Overview - Oil Change International

As of October 2017, Oil Change International estimates United States fossil fuel exploration and production subsidies at $20.5 billion annually. Other credible estimates of annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually – yet none of these include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry.
 
Lord of Planar said:
If we had around a 100% tax on IC engine cars, and no tax on electric cars, we would do the same.

This is why electrics are competitive there.

It has been shown many times. Have you never seen the proof?
Click to expand...

The amount of the subsidies in Norway is crazy.
Plug-in electric vehicles in Norway - Wikipedia
Electric vehicles are also exempt from the annual road tax, all public parking fees, and toll payments, as well as being able to use bus lanes.
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They have an example of a Nissan Leaf at $42.5K, so the VAT tax savings over an IC car would be $10,625 alone.
Add in to that, free toll road use, free public parking, and no annual road tax, and should we be surprised
that people are taking advantage of the incentives?
 
longview said:
The amount of the subsidies in Norway is crazy.
Plug-in electric vehicles in Norway - Wikipedia

They have an example of a Nissan Leaf at $42.5K, so the VAT tax savings over an IC car would be $10,625 alone.
Add in to that, free toll road use, free public parking, and no annual road tax, and should we be surprised
that people are taking advantage of the incentives?
Click to expand...

The way he keeps ranting and raving about their electric car percentage, one would think that is either really a true denier of facts, or that he loves excessive taxation and authoritarian governments.
 
longview said:
The amount of the subsidies in Norway is crazy.
Plug-in electric vehicles in Norway - Wikipedia

They have an example of a Nissan Leaf at $42.5K, so the VAT tax savings over an IC car would be $10,625 alone.
Add in to that, free toll road use, free public parking, and no annual road tax, and should we be surprised
that people are taking advantage of the incentives?
Click to expand...

And the US currently gives a tax credit of $7500. That's a good thing! These incentives are put out there to introduce a technology that benefits everybody, and once the technology is accepted, the tax credits expire. The tax credit for conventional hybrids has now expired. Starting next year, the renewable energy tax credits start phasing out. Tax credits were also used to incentivise Smart Appliances.
 
Media_Truth said:
And the US currently gives a tax credit of $7500. That's a good thing! These incentives are put out there to introduce a technology that benefits everybody, and once the technology is accepted, the tax credits expire. The tax credit for conventional hybrids has now expired. Starting next year, the renewable energy tax credits start phasing out. Tax credits were also used to incentivise Smart Appliances.
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We are talking about Norway.
 
longview said:
We are talking about Norway.
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And I was comparing the US. The thread is about Tesla. So surely it's acceptable to compare Norway EV incentives to those of the US.
 
Media_Truth said:
And I was comparing the US. The thread is about Tesla. So surely it's acceptable to compare Norway EV incentives to those of the US.
Click to expand...
The question is why in a thread about Tesla, did someone bring up what is happening in Norway?
 
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