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Tesla's Gigafactory in Shanghai

Media_Truth said:
Bold, Irresponsible, Lackluster, Visionary --- you will find all these words, and many more, in articles and opinions about Tesla. However, wealthy entrepeneurs continue to gamble large sums of money on large potential future payouts. What other company has had the balls to take on the American Auto Industry? Although Tesla is still struggling with profitability margins, they are rolling cars off an assembly line in California.

But the Gigafactory being built in China is enormous.

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The May 2019 article is worth a read, but here are a few excerpts...

Tesla Gigafactory 3 building in Shanghai looks almost complete - Electrek

About 7 months ago, Tesla announced a deal with the Shanghai government to build a wholly owned local factory and only about 5 months ago, they secured the 210-acres of land for Gigafactory 3 in China necessary. They officially broke ground in January and plan to be done with the building by this summer.

Considering the size of the building, it seemed almost impossible, but a new drone video update shows that the building is almost complete (from Jason Yang):
...
When first announcing the plant, Tesla said that it expects “construction to begin in the near future” and that it “will take roughly two years” until they start volume production with a planned capacity of 200,000 units and “then another two to three years before the factory is fully ramped up to produce around 500,000 vehicles per year for Chinese customers.

More recently, Musk said that Tesla wants to produce 3,000 Model 3 vehicles at Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai by the end of the year.

The CEO said that they plan to start production at the beginning of the fourth quarter.

This is insane! Build a plant this size and begin producing units, all within a year.
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It is sickening given how much in tax exemption promotion by the USA government to Tesla. Why again did we finance Tesla to develop a technology and company for the purpose of moving the technology and production to China?
 
Media_Truth said:
Every KWH generated by wind is one less KWH generated by coal and natural gas. It also avoids all the associated mining, extraction, and transport of these resources. Funny how you conveniently ignore this fact.
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How many KWHs does it take to gather the raw materials, then process those, all the other steps to build a wind generator, add the roads, then install the wind generator, make all the materials and install the electric line connections to the grid, and to thereafter maintain that wind generator?
 
joko104 said:
It is sickening given how much in tax exemption promotion by the USA government to Tesla. Why again did we finance Tesla to develop a technology and company for the purpose of moving the technology and production to China?
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Actually, if you looked through this thread, financing of the Shanghai plant was discussed. Tesla secured the loans from Chinese banks. Tesla also produces vehicles in the United States.

Also, it should not be viewed that Federal Tax Exemptions were for Tesla. The purchasers of the vehicles were the recipients of these tax incentives. You also need to ask yourself, why these incentives were put in place? One of the responsibilities of Government is to adhere to EPA policies and guidelines. Nearly every major city in the US is frequently out-of-compliance for emission of ozone and particulate pollutants. Electric cars will help to eliminate localized pollution in our cities. Many European coutries are incentivizing EVs more than the US.
 
joko104 said:
How many KWHs does it take to gather the raw materials, then process those, all the other steps to build a wind generator, add the roads, then install the wind generator, make all the materials and install the electric line connections to the grid, and to thereafter maintain that wind generator?
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Commissioning of any power source requires inputs. All power sources require maintenance (although residential solar PVs are near zero-maintenance). Similarity comparisons end there, as wind and solar costs ZERO for fuel, the extraction of the fuel, and the transport of the fuel.
 
joko104 said:
How many KWHs does it take to gather the raw materials, then process those, all the other steps to build a wind generator, add the roads, then install the wind generator, make all the materials and install the electric line connections to the grid, and to thereafter maintain that wind generator?
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About a 20th of the number of KWHs generated by the wind generator.

Meta-analysis of net energy return for wind power systems
 
Media_Truth said:
Every KWH generated by wind is one less KWH generated by coal and natural gas. It also avoids all the associated mining, extraction, and transport of these resources. Funny how you conveniently ignore this fact.
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Yes, we all know that.

It also decreases the output of a fossil fuel plan and makes it less efficient, causing the cost of power to rise.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I've responded before to that link. The cheapest price of power is around $50/megawatt-hour, and I showed how my bill charges me 6 something cents per kWh, and a link (you I think) responded back had industrial power at under 4 cents.

How much more will you or I pay with electricity added to the mix at $50+ wholsale per megawatt-hour?

I'm not arguing that Iowa doesn't get 35% of their power from wind. It is more expensive for their consumers though. What happens when the feds stop subsidization it, and 10-20 year old plants cost more to maintain than the EOM advertised?

I don't need to offer proof. I don't care if you look this type of thing up for yourself or not. I have no proof to offer from my 40+ years of experience in technical field.

How do you prove experience?
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Onshore wind costs are already as low as $0.03-0.04/kWh while you have new photovoltaic solar power system with levelized cost of electricity of as low as $0.03/kWh. While the avarage cost of electricity in the US is $0.12/kWh.

Renewable Energy Costs Take Another Tumble, Making Fossil Fuels Look More Expensive Than Ever

The Price Of Electricity In Your State : Planet Money : NPR
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Onshore wind costs are already as low as $0.03-0.04/kWh while you have new photovoltaic solar power system with levelized cost of electricity of as low as $0.03/kWh. While the avarage cost of electricity in the US is $0.12/kWh.

Renewable Energy Costs Take Another Tumble, Making Fossil Fuels Look More Expensive Than Ever

The Price Of Electricity In Your State : Planet Money : NPR
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That 2011 NPR article is out of date. Electricity is in the neighborhood of 20% more now. That's retail price. Mine is around 11 cents now, with wholesale around 3 cents, most;y from hydro-power.

As for your 3 cents levelized cost, that's in equatorial regions, and I doubt it's really that cheap.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Yes, we all know that.

It also decreases the output of a fossil fuel plan and makes it less efficient, causing the cost of power to rise.
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A well-managed natural gas fired power plant can be effectively load-managed to avoid extra costs. Texas uses more wind power more than any other state. Last I looked, they were #11 in low-cost electricity in the country.
 
Media_Truth said:
A well-managed natural gas fired power plant can be effectively load-managed to avoid extra costs. Texas uses more wind power more than any other state. Last I looked, they were #11 in low-cost electricity in the country.
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It increases their overall levelized costs when they produce less power than they can.
 
Lord of Planar said:
It increases their overall levelized costs when they produce less power than they can.
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Not so much. Wind power can now be predicted with great accuracy. Once it can be predicted, much can be done - reduction and shifting of manpower at other facilities, etc. Required Preventative Maintenance (PMs) can be performed on equipment, etc., etc.

Variability versus predictability of wind power production

Today, wind energy forecasting uses sophisticated numerical weather forecast models, wind power plant generation models and statistical methods to predict generation at five-minute to one-hour intervals, over periods of up to 48 to 72 hours in advance and for seasonal and annual periods.

Forecasting wind power production differs from forecasting other generation forms or forecasting the load. Wind, being a natural phenomenon, is better suited to reliable statistical treatment and physical forecasting than conventional plants which are subject to physical faults.

Wind power prediction can be quite accurate for aggregated wind power, as the variations are levelled out; and the larger the area, the better the overall prediction. The extent to which prediction error decreases with the size of the region considered is shown in Figure 2.6. It should be noted that the forecast accuracy is reduced for longer prediction periods.
 
Lord of Planar said:
That 2011 NPR article is out of date. Electricity is in the neighborhood of 20% more now. That's retail price. Mine is around 11 cents now, with wholesale around 3 cents, most;y from hydro-power.

As for your 3 cents levelized cost, that's in equatorial regions, and I doubt it's really that cheap.
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The difference in latitude isn't that big between southern American states and Middle Eastern countries. There southern American states also have a great opportunities for solar power with very sunny areas. Also new onshore wind project have costs as low as $0.03-0.04/kWh there latitude doesn't matter.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
The difference in latitude isn't that big between southern American states and Middle Eastern countries. There southern American states also have a great opportunities for solar power with very sunny areas. Also new onshore wind project have costs as low as $0.03-0.04/kWh there latitude doesn't matter.
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Sorry, I don't believe that for a levelized cost. The lowest costs to date have been seen at 5 cent estimates, and not proven to be that over time yet.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Sorry, I don't believe that for a levelized cost. The lowest costs to date have been seen at 5 cent estimates, and not proven to be that over time yet.
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So you simple "believe" the numbers are wrong without providing any sources of your own. That the fact is that investment in renewables energy have really paid off. That investment in renewables have lead to economy of scale and innovation so that you have seen and continue to see a drastic drop in cost.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
So you simple "believe" the numbers are wrong without providing any sources of your own. That the fact is that investment in renewables energy have really paid off. That investment in renewables have lead to economy of scale and innovation so that you have seen and continue to see a drastic drop in cost.
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If they have paid off, then good for them

Now... by "paid off" do you mean they already sold enough electricity to cover all the design and planning costs, and now make enough money to pay all the employees operating and maintaining them?
 
Lord of Planar said:
If they have paid off, then good for them

Now... by "paid off" do you mean they already sold enough electricity to cover all the design and planning costs, and now make enough money to pay all the employees operating and maintaining them?
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You have provided no sources on your to refute the fact that renewables are starting to out compete fossil fuels. Also by paid off I mean that having citizens, companies, governments and communities leading the way in investment in renewables have lead to today low. While also starting the needed reduction the toxic pollution from fossil and starting the urgent transition away from fossil fuels.

More than 90% of the world’s children breathe toxic air every day

Fourth National Climate Assessment

While at the same time there also a lot more that can and should be done. For example ending subsidies to fossil fuel and transfer that money to investments in renewables and other technologies needed for the transition away from fossil fuels.

Just 10% of fossil fuel subsidy cash 'could pay for green transition' | Environment | The Guardian
 
Bergslagstroll said:
You have provided no sources on your to refute the fact that renewables are starting to out compete fossil fuels. Also by paid off I mean that having citizens, companies, governments and communities leading the way in investment in renewables have lead to today low. While also starting the needed reduction the toxic pollution from fossil and starting the urgent transition away from fossil fuels.

More than 90% of the world’s children breathe toxic air every day

Fourth National Climate Assessment

While at the same time there also a lot more that can and should be done. For example ending subsidies to fossil fuel and transfer that money to investments in renewables and other technologies needed for the transition away from fossil fuels.

Just 10% of fossil fuel subsidy cash 'could pay for green transition' | Environment | The Guardian
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You sure love your propaganda.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Access to this page has been denied.

Yes it does



If it follows through with that mandate the prediction of China having 57% of global EV sales in 2035 would easily come true, as it would mean a good 13 million in EV sales just in China. Germany would likely be the next largest market as unless it has been changed will ban the sale of IC engines by 2030
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Fairy tales for the gullible.
 
The 2019 Exponential Roadmap is an interesting road map for the transition away from fossil fuels.

"Roadmap Provides 36 Solutions to Cut Greenhouse Gas Emissions 50% by 2030 Worldwide

Low cost solar, wind, and battery technologies are on profitable, exponential trajectories that if sustained, will be enough to halve emissions from electricity generation by 2030.
Electric vehicle growth has the potential to reach a 90% market share by 2030 if sustained, but only if strong policies support this direction.
Digital technology remains a wild card. It could support a rapid transformation of our economic systems or could drive emissions higher.
Four drivers for rapid transformation are converging: growing social movements, the rise in the number of countries discussing a target of net-zero by 2050, the economic logic of rapid transition and the speed of technological innovation."

Exponential Climate Action Roadmap | Report
 
This construction project continues to proceed at an unprecedented rate.

Tesla Gigafactory 3 Construction Progress September 20, 2019: Video

While the main production facility is basically complete (only little things remain), work at the second, smaller facility on the southern side (reportedly a battery workshop) is at full swing. We should see the first walls within a few weeks.

Also, the 220 V substation is well advanced, probably to be completed within a few weeks.
 
The banking sector are starting to realize the grave dangers of climate change and the great opportunities in renewable energy.

'“These principles mean banks have to consider the impact of their loans on society – not just on their portfolio,” Simone Dettling, banking team lead for the Geneva-based United Nations Environment Finance Initiative, told Reuters.


Under pressure from investors, regulators and climate activists, some big banks have acknowledged the role lenders will need to play in a rapid transition to a low-carbon economy.


Financing for oil, gas and coal projects has come under particular scrutiny as climate scientists step up calls to change the global economy’s deep reliance on fossil-fuels to avert disastrous warming.'

Banks worth $47 trillion adopt new U.N.-backed climate principles - Reuters
 
Media_Truth said:
This construction project continues to proceed at an unprecedented rate.

Tesla Gigafactory 3 Construction Progress September 20, 2019: Video

While the main production facility is basically complete (only little things remain), work at the second, smaller facility on the southern side (reportedly a battery workshop) is at full swing. We should see the first walls within a few weeks.

Also, the 220 V substation is well advanced, probably to be completed within a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Let's hope no corners are cut! remember the hoverboard fires? What would that look like in a car?
 
Tesla produces complete Model 3 body-in-white at Gigafactory 3, production to start Oct. 14 - Electrek


Less than one year from starting to build the factory to producing vehicles

Tesla has produced a complete Model 3 body-in-white at Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai and full production is scheduled to start on October 14, according to a report citing Tesla officials and Chinese officials.

In recent weeks, we have been reporting on Tesla ramping up its efforts to soon start production at Gigafactory 3.
The start of production is going to be a major milestone since it’s going to be the first electric vehicle factory wholly-owned by a foreign automaker in China and Tesla’s second electric vehicle production factory.
After starting construction just in January earlier this year, Tesla has been guiding a start of production in Q4 2019.
Click to expand...
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Tesla produces complete Model 3 body-in-white at Gigafactory 3, production to start Oct. 14 - Electrek


Less than one year from starting to build the factory to producing vehicles
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Tesla also developing a one million miles battery.

"Last April, Elon Musk promised that Tesla would soon be able to power its electric cars for more than 1 million miles over the course of their lifespan. At the time, the claim seemed a bit much. That’s more than double the mileage Tesla owners can expect to get out of their car’s current battery packs, which are already well beyond the operational range of most other EV batteries. It just didn’t seem real—except now it appears that it is.

Earlier this month, a group of battery researchers at Dalhousie University, which has an exclusive agreement with Tesla, published a paper in The Journal of the Electrochemical Society describing a lithium-ion battery that “should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1 million miles” while losing less than 10 percent of its energy capacity during its lifetime.

Led by physicist Jeff Dahn, one of the world’s foremost lithium-ion researchers, the Dalhousie group showed that its battery significantly outperforms any similar lithium-ion battery previously reported. They noted their battery could be especially useful for self-driving robotaxis and long-haul electric trucks, two products Tesla is developing."

Tesla May Soon Have a Battery That Can Last a Million Miles | WIRED
 
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