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Tesla's Gigafactory in Shanghai

You guys are so gullible with renewable. They still cost more than retail rates when the other factors are included, and you champion the wholesale rates like they are cheaper.

It is rather short sighted to see a wholesale retail cheaper than total gross consumer costs, and think it is less expensive.

You guys or so indoctrinated, I'm about to cry... out of pity for you.

Electric power companies all over the world have decided. 100% of the new electric generating capacity brought on line in the US in the last two years has come from renewable energy. Now, cheap, large scale battery farms, being charged at $0.03/kWh, can be sold for three or four times the price into peak energy markets. This will drive the natural gas industry toward base load generation, further displacing coal and nuclear, which are becoming expensive liabilities.
 
You don't seem to understand the concept. Levelized costs are the most honest way to determine costs. Just because you don't like the results, does not change that.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf

Measures lifetime costs divided by energy production
• Calculates present value of the total cost of building and
operating a power plant over an assumed lifetime.
• Allows the comparison of different technologies (e.g., wind,
solar, natural gas) of unequal life spans, project size,
different capital cost, risk, return, and capacities

ABOUT IER --->

About - IER

The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a not-for-profit organization that conducts intensive research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy markets. IER maintains that freely-functioning energy markets provide the most efficient and effective solutions to today’s global energy and environmental challenges and, as such, are critical to the well-being of individuals and society.

But I do understand. They are comparing long term known and tested technologies, against technologies not tested into a reasonable age.
 
But I do understand. They are comparing long term known and tested technologies, against technologies not tested into a reasonable age.

I understand that you are jealous that the new technologies are now below the cost of most fossil fuels.
 
[FONT=&quot]Transportation[/FONT]
[h=1]Electric Car Sales Fall for First Time After China Cuts Subsidy[/h][FONT=&quot]From Bloomberg News September 2, 2019, 11:06 PM PDT Sales drop 14% in July to about 128,000 vehicles: Bernstein Slowdown highlights the effect of government subsidies Customers look at a Tesla Motors Inc. Model S electric vehicle at the company’s showroom in Hong Kong. Photographer: Billy H.C. Kwok/Bloomberg Global electric-car sales fell for the first…
[/FONT]
 
[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/04/electric-car-sales-fall-for-first-time-after-china-cuts-subsidy/"]
Screenshot-2019-09-03-20.26.27.png
[/URL]Transportation[/FONT]

[h=1]Electric Car Sales Fall for First Time After China Cuts Subsidy[/h][FONT="]From Bloomberg News September 2, 2019, 11:06 PM PDT Sales drop 14% in July to about 128,000 vehicles: Bernstein Slowdown highlights the effect of government subsidies Customers look at a Tesla Motors Inc. Model S electric vehicle at the company’s showroom in Hong Kong. Photographer: Billy H.C. Kwok/Bloomberg Global electric-car sales fell for the first…
[/FONT]

That is lacking some wider context. Overall vehicle sales in China have decreased 12.4 % in China in the first half of 2019. So for the year electric sales are still up
 
That is lacking some wider context. Overall vehicle sales in China have decreased 12.4 % in China in the first half of 2019. So for the year electric sales are still up

[FONT=&quot]". . . Global electric-car sales fell for the first time on record in July after China scaled back purchase subsidies, highlighting the role government assistance is having on the burgeoning market.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Monthly sales worldwide fell 14% to about 128,000 plug-in passenger electric vehicles, Sanford C. Bernstein said in a report Tuesday. Sales declined in China and North America, while rising in Europe.[/FONT] . . . "
 
[FONT="]". . . [B]Global[/B] electric-car sales fell for the first time on record in July after China scaled back purchase subsidies, highlighting the role government assistance is having on the burgeoning market.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#404040][FONT="]Monthly sales worldwide fell 14% to about 128,000 plug-in passenger electric vehicles, Sanford C. Bernstein said in a report Tuesday. Sales declined in China and North America, while rising in Europe.[/FONT]
. . . "

Yes and I just added some context (extra information) to what you posted. To provide a more in depth analysis of what may be occurring.

So that people could see if the sales drop in China was due to a sudden decrease in demand for just electric vehicles or perhaps due to a larger economic cycle in which all vehicle sales have dropped
 
Yes and I just added some context (extra information) to what you posted. To provide a more in depth analysis of what may be occurring.

So that people could see if the sales drop in China was due to a sudden decrease in demand for just electric vehicles or perhaps due to a larger economic cycle in which all vehicle sales have dropped

Yawn.
 
[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/04/electric-car-sales-fall-for-first-time-after-china-cuts-subsidy/"]
Screenshot-2019-09-03-20.26.27.png
[/URL]Transportation[/FONT]

[h=1]Electric Car Sales Fall for First Time After China Cuts Subsidy[/h][FONT="]From Bloomberg News September 2, 2019, 11:06 PM PDT Sales drop 14% in July to about 128,000 vehicles: Bernstein Slowdown highlights the effect of government subsidies Customers look at a Tesla Motors Inc. Model S electric vehicle at the company’s showroom in Hong Kong. Photographer: Billy H.C. Kwok/Bloomberg Global electric-car sales fell for the first…
[/FONT]

You should try to see the forest through the trees.

Forecast Predicts China Will Account For 57% Of Electric Car Sales By 2035

A recently published report by Japan’s Fuji Keizai Group, reveals that China is predicted to account for 57% of the world’s electric vehicle sales by 2035. The market research company prophecises that global EV sales are set to reach around 11.25 million by 2035 - almost 15 times more than 2017 yearly sales that accounted for 760,000 vehicles. The Chinese market is expected to account for approximately 6.42 millions of the whole vehicle total - or the aforementioned 57% of the global sales volume.

Tesla's stock was up $8.90 per share today!
 
You should try to see the forest through the trees.

Forecast Predicts China Will Account For 57% Of Electric Car Sales By 2035

A recently published report by Japan’s Fuji Keizai Group, reveals that China is predicted to account for 57% of the world’s electric vehicle sales by 2035. The market research company prophecises that global EV sales are set to reach around 11.25 million by 2035 - almost 15 times more than 2017 yearly sales that accounted for 760,000 vehicles. The Chinese market is expected to account for approximately 6.42 millions of the whole vehicle total - or the aforementioned 57% of the global sales volume.

Tesla's stock was up $8.90 per share today!

Do you believe in fairies?
 
From your article,

The Obama-era rule changes were not about limiting some of the nasty coal ash products, but rather limiting CO2.
Also the regulations had not even started yet when Obama left office, so no, no is talking about going back to the "good old days"!
This is about removing regulations which would not have allowed coal to compete because of CO2, not other emissions.
Coal should go away, but not because of regulatory hurdles, not required of other sources of energy generation.
Coal will likely die because of it's own logistical tail, but let it die from market forces, not government fiat.

Not exactly. The Obama rules did set deadlines for the end of unlined coal ash ponds and tightened permissible levels of certain chemicals in adjacent waters. Trump has extended the deadline for the phase out of unlined ponds and reduced some of the water quality stuff for a short period of time, but not indefinitely, because water is used to cool the hot ashes. The rationale is that states need more time to deal with existing ponds and there are new water quality standards coming down the pike that might affect how they can comply with storage and the newer standards as to ground water. Better than 9 out of 10 of current coal ash ponds are unlined so in some states this will be quite the undertaking.
 
It's information that doesn't matter.

When you are trying to say electric car sales are dropping with the insinuation it is because it is because they are electric cars it does matter. It provides context to the information. It allows for proper judgements to be made.
 
Do you believe in fairies?

It actually makes sense

China is fairly ideal for electric cars. Inter city travel is typically done by train or plane rather than a personal vehicle as in Canada or the US. The Chinese government is working hard to improve air quality in the cities and electric cars are ideal for that. Last year China had sold 24 million vehicles. So all they would have to do is convert have the new vehicles sold to electric ones
 
It actually makes sense

China is fairly ideal for electric cars. Inter city travel is typically done by train or plane rather than a personal vehicle as in Canada or the US. The Chinese government is working hard to improve air quality in the cities and electric cars are ideal for that. Last year China had sold 24 million vehicles. So all they would have to do is convert have the new vehicles sold to electric ones

I am a retired Electrical Engineer. If you would have asked me 20 or 30 years ago, if a battery-powered electric car could travel 200-300 miles on a single charge. I would have said, "No way"! Now that I drive an electric vehicle, I am simply astounded by this incredible technology. It is the most fun car that I have ever driven, by a long-shot. Just look at the satistaction level of EV owners.

EV-Satisfaction_evobsessionDOTcom.png

I am convinced that, within 20 years, it will be hard to sell a used gasoline-powered car, and although they will still be around, their new car sales will also start dropping rapidly. People who drive electric cars know this, from first-hand experience!!!
 
Not exactly. The Obama rules did set deadlines for the end of unlined coal ash ponds and tightened permissible levels of certain chemicals in adjacent waters. Trump has extended the deadline for the phase out of unlined ponds and reduced some of the water quality stuff for a short period of time, but not indefinitely, because water is used to cool the hot ashes. The rationale is that states need more time to deal with existing ponds and there are new water quality standards coming down the pike that might affect how they can comply with storage and the newer standards as to ground water. Better than 9 out of 10 of current coal ash ponds are unlined so in some states this will be quite the undertaking.
Fair enough, but many of the pending regulations were related to CO2 emissions.
 
Fair enough, but many of the pending regulations were related to CO2 emissions.

Sure, but there is an awful lot that is learned by trial and error. The democrats, who will never admit they are wrong about anything, are really risking destabilizing the economy with their Monkey See, Monkey Do approaches to carbon. For instance, peer-reviewed studies show that biomass is not only not carbon-neutral, it can be worse than burning fossil fuels Biomass More Polluting Than Coal, New Study Finds - EcoWatch


and the much touted Germans are not going to come close to reaching their goals in the time frame allowed. They also are putting their energy supply at risk ( "But McKinsey issues its strongest warning when it comes to Germany's increasingly insecure energy supply due to its heavy reliance on intermittent solar and wind. For three days in June 2019, the electricity grid came close to black-outs.

"Only short-term imports from neighboring countries were able to stabilize the grid," the consultancy notes.

As a result of Germany's energy supply shortage, the highest observed cost of short-term "balancing energy" skyrocketed from €64 in 2017 to €37,856 in 2019.

"It can be assumed that security of supply will continue to worsen in the future," says McKinsey.

Renewables are causing similarly high price shocks in other parts of the world including Texas, Australia, and California.

And Britain and Australia have faced similar energy supply problems in recent years as they have attempted to transition to intermittent renewables.

“Wind generation, solar and interconnectors are different to the conventional electricity generation sources,” Britain's National Grid said in a report after lightning knocked a wind farm and natural gas plant off the grid in August, causing a black-out in London. Renewables Threaten German Economy & Energy Supply, McKinsey Warns In New Report )


Nuclear is carbon neutral at the production level and offers stable, reliable and less expensive energy.
 
When you are trying to say electric car sales are dropping with the insinuation it is because it is because they are electric cars it does matter. It provides context to the information. It allows for proper judgements to be made.

Sales are dropping as subsidies are withdrawn.
 
It actually makes sense

China is fairly ideal for electric cars. Inter city travel is typically done by train or plane rather than a personal vehicle as in Canada or the US. The Chinese government is working hard to improve air quality in the cities and electric cars are ideal for that. Last year China had sold 24 million vehicles. So all they would have to do is convert have the new vehicles sold to electric ones

A passing fashion mistaken for a trend.
 
Sales are dropping as subsidies are withdrawn.

Or it could be part of the overall decline in auto sales. Were overall auto sales increasing and EV sales dropping your conclusion would most likely be very accurate.

A person can not honestly make your claim with the overall auto market dropping at the same time
 
Sure, but there is an awful lot that is learned by trial and error. The democrats, who will never admit they are wrong about anything, are really risking destabilizing the economy with their Monkey See, Monkey Do approaches to carbon. For instance, peer-reviewed studies show that biomass is not only not carbon-neutral, it can be worse than burning fossil fuels Biomass More Polluting Than Coal, New Study Finds - EcoWatch


and the much touted Germans are not going to come close to reaching their goals in the time frame allowed. They also are putting their energy supply at risk ( "But McKinsey issues its strongest warning when it comes to Germany's increasingly insecure energy supply due to its heavy reliance on intermittent solar and wind. For three days in June 2019, the electricity grid came close to black-outs.

"Only short-term imports from neighboring countries were able to stabilize the grid," the consultancy notes.

As a result of Germany's energy supply shortage, the highest observed cost of short-term "balancing energy" skyrocketed from €64 in 2017 to €37,856 in 2019.

"It can be assumed that security of supply will continue to worsen in the future," says McKinsey.

Renewables are causing similarly high price shocks in other parts of the world including Texas, Australia, and California.

And Britain and Australia have faced similar energy supply problems in recent years as they have attempted to transition to intermittent renewables.

“Wind generation, solar and interconnectors are different to the conventional electricity generation sources,” Britain's National Grid said in a report after lightning knocked a wind farm and natural gas plant off the grid in August, causing a black-out in London. Renewables Threaten German Economy & Energy Supply, McKinsey Warns In New Report )


Nuclear is carbon neutral at the production level and offers stable, reliable and less expensive energy.
Nuclear is the best option on the table currently, some type of viable energy storage is necessary before wind and solar
can be realized as actual base load contributors to the electrical grid.
Storage would allow seasonal shifting, so Spring and Fall surpluses, could cover summer and winter shortages.
I think that is still a ways away, so we need Nuclear to fill the gap.
 
Or it could be part of the overall decline in auto sales. Were overall auto sales increasing and EV sales dropping your conclusion would most likely be very accurate.

A person can not honestly make your claim with the overall auto market dropping at the same time

EV sales dropped more than overall sales.
 
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