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Thread: The psychology of climate change denial

  1. #21
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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    My main concern is the damage the concept of Human caused global warming
    can inflict on our confidence in Science, and the Scientific process.
    By passing off untested speculation as Science, we tarnish actual credibility of real Science.
    The reality of the IPCC's flavor of AGW, is that there is no empirical data,
    or laboratory experiments that support the catastrophic predictions.
    What empirical data that does exists, only supports that added CO2 can cause minor warming,
    but not as much as that assumed by the models.
    The models all vary in their risk assessment, but all agree that it’s high enough that it needs to be taken very seriously. It’s a little bit like how it’s difficult to predict how much smoking will increase a particular individuals risk for cancer or emphysema . But it is high enough that most authorities would strongly recommend they stop.

    It does not mean that risk assessment is not scientific or incorrect.

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I think it is being dealt with by the free market but, I doubt your side will be satisfied without big government using it as a reason. to tax the crap out of us. After all your side has hysterically put a time limit on our very existence.
    So just for the sake of argument: let’s assume there is a way that we can guarantee doing this without taxing the crap out of you or using any big government. Would climate change science seem more scientific to you then?

    I am pretty sure you guys are denying the science because you’re just afraid of what it might mean, not because it is not good science. To make any sound decisions, we have to agree on basic facts. You can’t deny the facts just because of you are afraid of what it might mean.

    If you are that afraid of big government or taxes, I would be open to discussions, negotiations, and compromises on other ways to approach this. What we are doing right now is not working. But it’s hard to argue with someone who questions overwhelming facts just because they’re afraid of what it might mean. they are denying reality altogether, and I think you can see how it becomes very difficult to have any meaningful conversation at that point.
    Last edited by ataraxia; 07-24-19 at 10:11 AM.

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    If you tell humans that a volcanic eruption will change the climate by releasing massive amounts of gas, they will probably believe you. After all, Volcanos are big and dangerous, so obviously they cause problems. But tell the same humans that their own massive production and emission of gasses will change the climate, and suddenly that is much more difficult for them to accept. Perhaps it has to do with not wanting to accept responsibility? In any case, it is troubling. It does not truly require any great scientific thought to understand the issue. If you alter the chemical composition of the atmosphere you will alter the climate. This process has been going on for millions of years and will continue to do so, aided by human contributions. No one knows exactly how this will affect our Earth and its climate. Only that it will, and that we had best be prepared.

  4. #24
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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I think it is being dealt with by the free market but, I doubt your side will be satisfied without big government using it as a reason. to tax the crap out of us. After all your side has hysterically put a time limit on our very existence.
    How can something that doesn't exist be dealt with by the free market? What mechanisms in the free market are fighting climate change? Be specific.

    What drives someone to believe that humans can't effect the environment and that changing the chemical content of the atmosphere has no effect at all?

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Then immediately in walks a science denying conservative that's never studied climate science a day in his life to tell us it's all an international liberal conspiracy.

    You are 100% correct in what you said, ataraxia. I've long since abandoned trying to reason with these people as they've abandoned reason long ago. I think the core of it is the death of respect for knowledge and expertise. Science is complicated so it's hard for the scientifically illiterate to understand, and if they can't understand it they have to defer to the experts in those fields. If however you don't understand enough about science to even understand what being an expert in a scientific field means, you're not going to respect the consensus. These people think scientists just make up things and that it's all squabbling about opinions like it's politics. They've never taken even a day of their lives to seriously study the science and objectively clear evidence.

    Ultimately, it's not worth even engaging these people as it just makes them more entrenched as they see it as a politicial issue and not a scientific one. It's about as productive as arguing with young earth creationists or flat earthers. The best you can do is just continue supporting science and let the deniers slowly fade away like the flat earthers did. The good news is even most deniers admit the earth is warming now (HUGE progress!) they've just shifted their argument to be that mankind could never, ever und any circumstance effect the environment because Jesus is protecting it or something.
    Actually, it's a scientific argument, not politics, and you're just parading your ignorance.
    "Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." --Marcus Aurelius

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    That’s all in the textbooks.

    Any standard textbook on the subject can help answer your questions. Have you read them?

    Do you believe in any other science? Or is it just this particular topic? Why?
    “For reasons that are both obvious and highly functional, science textbooks (and too many of the older histories of science) refer only to that part of the work of past scientists that can easily be viewed as contributions to the statement and solution of the texts' paradigm problems. Partly by selection and partly by distortion, the scientists of early ages are implicitly represented as having worked upon the same set of fixed problems and in accordance with the same set of fixed canons that the most recent revolution in scientific theory and method has made seem scientific.”
    Thomas S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions
    "Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." --Marcus Aurelius

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    The models all vary in their risk assessment, but all agree that it’s high enough that it needs to be taken very seriously. It’s a little bit like how it’s difficult to predict how much smoking will increase a particular individuals risk for cancer or emphysema . But it is high enough that most authorities would strongly recommend they stop.

    It does not mean that risk assessment is not scientific or incorrect.
    No they don't, the models are all over the place, based on what assumptions are used for inputs.
    The actual model range is far larger than the stated ECS range, with some coming out with an ECS of .8 C and other with an ECS over 10 C.
    Attempts to reduce the uncertainty, seem to mostly look at limiting the low end, while the high end is actually easier to limit.
    We have a know input warming of .28 C before 1950, so all those feedbacks would have to act on that input.
    This means that the upper end of the 1.5 to 4.5 C range is not possible, based on the observed data.
    We need to find a replacement for fuel from oil, but not because of CO2 emissions!

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    "Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." --Marcus Aurelius

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    "Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." --Marcus Aurelius

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    Re: The psychology of climate change denial

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    I think it is being dealt with by the free market but, I doubt your side will be satisfied without big government using it as a reason. to tax the crap out of us. After all your side has hysterically put a time limit on our very existence.
    Regulations would only materially impact industries that actually contribute to climate change. It would not be used as a blanket reason to "tax the crap out of us".

    Sorry, but that's just a scare tactic used to frighten people into compliance.
    If you have to resort to insults, name calling, ad hominem attacks, straw men, red herrings, appeals to authority, and other dirty debate tactics, the veracity of you argument is questionable.

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