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Earth just had its second-hottest April on record

Its not a stupid question at all. Let me rephrase it so you can better understand what is being asked. How confident are you that the global temperature data from 100 years ago is accurate? 50 years ago? 25?

Good question. GISSTEMP recently published their Land Ocean
Temperature Index (LOTI) for April 2019:

https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

When compared to the LOTI from March 2019 it can be shown
that their are 1672 monthly entries and 351 of them, 21%, were
changed in the April report. As it turns out, most of those changes,
301 of them, were made to entries over 100 years old.

This goes on every month here's a rundown since January 2018:

Number of Changes to GISSTEMP's LOTI for 2018:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
467 426 458 953 879 429 595 281 439 405 755 789

Number of Changes to GISSTEMP's LOTI for 2019:
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
843 370 480 351 *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***​
 
Thank you, this is a great example. You just googled a wikipedia article you've never read thinking it proves your point when it in fact proves mine.

300px-Climate_science_opinion_graph_3Path.svg.png

Your own ****ing link.

The scientific consensus is overwhelming. The scientific evidence they provide to support these assertions are even more overwhelming. You're the literal equivalent of a flat earther saying science backs your opinion because you found a handful of flat earthers with science degrees. Your stance is 100% political and 0% scientific.

Also that all the world's leading scientific societies acknolwedge the urgent need for action. Like for example these 31 American scientific societies.

"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous
scientific research concludes that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the
primary driver. This conclusion is based on multiple independent lines of evidence and the vast
body of peer-reviewed science.

There is strong evidence that ongoing climate change is having broad negative impacts on
society, including the global economy, natural resources, and human health. For the United
States, climate change impacts include greater threats of extreme weather events, sea level rise,
and increased risk of regional water scarcity, heat waves, wildfires, and the disturbance of
biological systems. The severity of climate change impacts is increasing and is expected to
increase substantially in the coming decades."


https://www.esa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016climateletter6-28-16.pdf

That the evidence is so overwhelming that even federal agencies under Donald Trump is acknowledging the urgent need for action.

"The impacts of climate change are already being felt in communities across the country. More frequent and intense extreme weather and climate-related events, as well as changes in average climate conditions, are expected to continue to damage infrastructure, ecosystems, and social systems that provide essential benefits to communities. Future climate change is expected to further disrupt many areas of life, exacerbating existing challenges to prosperity posed by aging and deteriorating infrastructure, stressed ecosystems, and economic inequality. Impacts within and across regions will not be distributed equally. People who are already vulnerable, including lower-income and other marginalized communities, have lower capacity to prepare for and cope with extreme weather and climate-related events and are expected to experience greater impacts. Prioritizing adaptation actions for the most vulnerable populations would contribute to a more equitable future within and across communities. Global action to significantly cut greenhouse gas emissions can substantially reduce climate-related risks and increase opportunities for these populations in the longer term."

Fourth National Climate Assessment
 
Even more so given the 'massaging' of historical temperature data over recent decades

You just make you self look silly with statements like that. For example that temperatures readings are just one of many examples of global warming happening right now.

Also the fact that fossil fuel companies have operations all across the world during the last hundred years. There those operations are dependent and impacted by weather and climate so of course fossil fuel companies have and do their own temperature reading and collection of other meteorological data. So of course those fossil fuel companies would sound the alarm if it was anything wrong with the global temperature readings. Especially since they spend so much time and money delaying the transition away from fossil fuels.

Oil And Gas Giants Spend Millions Lobbying To Block Climate Change Policies [Infographic]

Gas companies spend €104m lobbying to ensure Europe remains 'locked in' to fossil fuels for decades, report finds | The Independent

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/07/The-Climate-Deception-Dossiers.pdf

Instead the evidence is so overwhelming that even fossil fuel companies have to acknowledge manmade global warminga on their websites.

Access Denied
 
You just make you self look silly with statements like that. For example that temperatures readings are just one of many examples of global warming happening right now.

Also the fact that fossil fuel companies have operations all across the world during the last hundred years. There those operations are dependent and impacted by weather and climate so of course fossil fuel companies have and do their own temperature reading and collection of other meteorological data. So of course those fossil fuel companies would sound the alarm if it was anything wrong with the global temperature readings. Especially since they spend so much time and money delaying the transition away from fossil fuels.

Oil And Gas Giants Spend Millions Lobbying To Block Climate Change Policies [Infographic]

Gas companies spend €104m lobbying to ensure Europe remains 'locked in' to fossil fuels for decades, report finds | The Independent

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/07/The-Climate-Deception-Dossiers.pdf

Instead the evidence is so overwhelming that even fossil fuel companies have to acknowledge manmade global warminga on their websites.

Access Denied

I couldnt care less how much money the oil companies are making. They are at least providing a useful affordable utility whereas the climate change 'industry' serves only itself. Why else do you think energy bills in Germany Denmark and elsewhere have to be nearly 3 times more than in the US ? Those numbers put into context your alleged fossil fuel 'lobbying'

elelctricity-prices-relative-to-purchasing-power.jpg

And my graph is probably flattering given that since 2011 gas fracking has further reduced US energy prices in real terms giving them many positive economic advantages over much of the developed world
 
Also that all the world's leading scientific societies acknolwedge the urgent need for action. Like for example these 31 American scientific societies.

"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous
scientific research concludes that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the
primary driver. This conclusion is based on multiple independent lines of evidence and the vast
body of peer-reviewed science.

There is strong evidence that ongoing climate change is having broad negative impacts on
society, including the global economy, natural resources, and human health. For the United
States, climate change impacts include greater threats of extreme weather events, sea level rise,
and increased risk of regional water scarcity, heat waves, wildfires, and the disturbance of
biological systems. The severity of climate change impacts is increasing and is expected to
increase substantially in the coming decades."


https://www.esa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016climateletter6-28-16.pdf

That the evidence is so overwhelming that even federal agencies under Donald Trump is acknowledging the urgent need for action.

"The impacts of climate change are already being felt in communities across the country. More frequent and intense extreme weather and climate-related events, as well as changes in average climate conditions, are expected to continue to damage infrastructure, ecosystems, and social systems that provide essential benefits to communities. Future climate change is expected to further disrupt many areas of life, exacerbating existing challenges to prosperity posed by aging and deteriorating infrastructure, stressed ecosystems, and economic inequality. Impacts within and across regions will not be distributed equally. People who are already vulnerable, including lower-income and other marginalized communities, have lower capacity to prepare for and cope with extreme weather and climate-related events and are expected to experience greater impacts. Prioritizing adaptation actions for the most vulnerable populations would contribute to a more equitable future within and across communities. Global action to significantly cut greenhouse gas emissions can substantially reduce climate-related risks and increase opportunities for these populations in the longer term."

Fourth National Climate Assessment

So what action do we take ?
What empirical proof is there it will work ?
What is this 'ideal' temperature target and why are todays temperatures somehow all wrong?
How many in the third world should be denied affordable electrification in order to achieve it ?
Why aren't you outside the Chinese and Indian embassies protesting their emissions ?
If extra CO2 is so bad why is the planet actually 'greening' as a consequence of it ?

Many (even in the west) will face energy poverty as a consequence of policies people like you would have imposed upon them.

I don't know about you but I like my species :(
 
I couldnt care less how much money the oil companies are making. They are at least providing a useful affordable utility whereas the climate change 'industry' serves only itself. Why else do you think energy bills in Germany Denmark and elsewhere have to be nearly 3 times more than in the US ? Those numbers put into context your alleged fossil fuel 'lobbying'

View attachment 67256834

And my graph is probably flattering given that since 2011 gas fracking has further reduced US energy prices in real terms giving them many positive economic advantages over much of the developed world

Eurpean countries also have had a lot more investment in energy savings and energy efficiency. So that a German household spend on avarage two percent of their income on electricity compared to 2.15 percent for US. Also there are no correlation between how much a European household spend on electricity and the household's country's percent of renewable energy.

Electricity Prices in Europe - Who pays the most? [2010 - 2017]

Percentage of Household Income Spent on Electricity by State – Electric Choice
 
So what action do we take ?
What empirical proof is there it will work ?
What is this 'ideal' temperature target and why are todays temperatures somehow all wrong?
How many in the third world should be denied affordable electrification in order to achieve it ?
Why aren't you outside the Chinese and Indian embassies protesting their emissions ?
If extra CO2 is so bad why is the planet actually 'greening' as a consequence of it ?

Many (even in the west) will face energy poverty as a consequence of policies people like you would have imposed upon them.

I don't know about you but I like my species :(

If you worry about energy poverty you should be really worry about the dependence on oil from the Middle East and learn from that happend in the 70's with the oil crisis.

There you for example have Sweden that have drasticly reduced it's dependency on oil by replacing oil fired burners with district heating.

District heating

While in Norway and 1 out of 3 cars sold in the market was a zero-emission vehicle last year and 49 percent of the market including plug in hybrids.

Electric car sales grew by 40% in Norway this year - Electrek

You also for example have Denmark that got 68 percent of electricity from renewables in 2018.

As Wind Turned Down A Notch, Solar Soared -- 2018 Renewable Energy Report Denmark | CleanTechnica

You also have the UK that run one week without coal and plan to close the last coal plant in 2025.

Britain passes one week without coal power for first time since 1882 | Business | The Guardian

There all those ountries rank high on Forbes best country list.

Best Countries for Business List
 
If you worry about energy poverty you should be really worry about the dependence on oil from the Middle East and learn from that happend in the 70's with the oil crisis.

There you for example have Sweden that have drasticly reduced it's dependency on oil by replacing oil fired burners with district heating.

District heating

While in Norway and 1 out of 3 cars sold in the market was a zero-emission vehicle last year and 49 percent of the market including plug in hybrids.

Electric car sales grew by 40% in Norway this year - Electrek

You also for example have Denmark that got 68 percent of electricity from renewables in 2018.

As Wind Turned Down A Notch, Solar Soared -- 2018 Renewable Energy Report Denmark | CleanTechnica

You also have the UK that run one week without coal and plan to close the last coal plant in 2025.

Britain passes one week without coal power for first time since 1882 | Business | The Guardian

There all those ountries rank high on Forbes best country list.

Best Countries for Business List

Yes yes thats all very politically correct flag waving greenwashed BS, But you havent really answered a single question I put to you :roll:
 
Eurpean countries also have had a lot more investment in energy savings and energy efficiency. So that a German household spend on avarage two percent of their income on electricity compared to 2.15 percent for US. Also there are no correlation between how much a European household spend on electricity and the household's country's percent of renewable energy.

Electricity Prices in Europe - Who pays the most? [2010 - 2017]

Percentage of Household Income Spent on Electricity by State – Electric Choice

So where is the US vs Europe in any direct comparison here then given these links are very much continent specific ?
 
Eurpean countries also have had a lot more investment in energy savings and energy efficiency. So that a German household spend on avarage two percent of their income on electricity compared to 2.15 percent for US. Also there are no correlation between how much a European household spend on electricity and the household's country's percent of renewable energy.

Electricity Prices in Europe - Who pays the most? [2010 - 2017]

Percentage of Household Income Spent on Electricity by State – Electric Choice

Sorry, not true.

Average electricity prices around the world: $/kWh | OVO Energy


search-small



Electricity prices are a controversial issue in lots of countries, particularly when they go up in a hurry. Where I live in the UK rising energy prices resulted in the ...

Cost Of Electricity By Country - WorldAtlas.com


https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/electricity-rates-around-the-world.html



Sep 28, 2018 - For the sake of comparison, the cost of electricity in the United States is generally between 8 cents to 43 cents per kilowatt-hour. In the United Kingdom, the cost is around 22 cents.
 
Sorry, not true.

Average electricity prices around the world: $/kWh | OVO Energy


search-small



Electricity prices are a controversial issue in lots of countries, particularly when they go up in a hurry. Where I live in the UK rising energy prices resulted in the ...

Cost Of Electricity By Country - WorldAtlas.com


Cost Of Electricity By Country - WorldAtlas.com



Sep 28, 2018 - For the sake of comparison, the cost of electricity in the United States is generally between 8 cents to 43 cents per kilowatt-hour. In the United Kingdom, the cost is around 22 cents.

He gave his source. You have yours. Are they dated the same? Electricity rates are always fluctuating. How did your source average the rates, versus his source? You have a lot more work to do, before you start calling somebody a LIAR.
 
He gave his source. You have yours. Are they dated the same? Electricity rates are always fluctuating. How did your source average the rates, versus his source? You have a lot more work to do, before you start calling somebody a LIAR.

His "Energy Girl" blog is January 2018.
My World Atlas is September 2018.
 
He gave his source. You have yours. Are they dated the same? Electricity rates are always fluctuating. How did your source average the rates, versus his source? You have a lot more work to do, before you start calling somebody a LIAR.

Prove they are wrong then ? :waiting:
 
Prove they are wrong then ? :waiting:

Jack's the one that called him a LIAR. The burden of proof is on him. But feel free to jump right in, and give it your PROFESSIONAL analysis. :2razz:
 
Jack's the one that called him a LIAR. The burden of proof is on him. But feel free to jump right in, and give it your PROFESSIONAL analysis. :2razz:

Proof provided in #37. And btw, to be a liar someone has to know what they're posting is false. I don't think he does.
 
Proof provided in #37. And btw, to be a liar someone has to know what they're posting is false. I don't think he does.

You proved nothing. I saw no details or analysis of European electricity rates. You posted some data. He posted some data. You would need to show the differences and explain the differences, perhaps citing actual budgeting statistics, before calling him a LIAR (or calling his data LIEs).
 
You proved nothing. I saw no details or analysis of European electricity rates. You posted some data. He posted some data. You would need to show the differences and explain the differences, perhaps citing actual budgeting statistics, before calling him a LIAR (or calling his data LIEs).

Interesting to see you doubling down on the "Energy Girl" blog.

As you wish. My source is:

World Map / World Atlas / Atlas of the World Including Geography ...


World Map / World Atlas / Atlas of the World Including Geography Facts and Flags - Worldatlas.com - WorldAtlas.com



Worldatlas on facebook. Explore The World. - Press a location on the map to start your expedition. world atlas ... usa and world images. Featured on WorldAtlas ...
 
I'm not peer reviewing papers because I'm not qualified in that field to. People on the internet pretending they are qualified to do just that and declare the entire field a liberal conspiracy should be called out and ridiculed.

And yes, POS is not in any way, shape, or form qualified or educated in climate or atmospheric science and has not spent a day of his life researching it, and neither have you. So both of your conspiracy theory opinions are completely meaningless.

I have no conspiracy theories. That is your conspiracy theory to play around with..

I would love to know what makes you the "qualified person" on Debate Politics to confirm global warming.
 
Interesting to see you doubling down on the "Energy Girl" blog.

As you wish. My source is:

World Map / World Atlas / Atlas of the World Including Geography ...


World Map / World Atlas / Atlas of the World Including Geography Facts and Flags - Worldatlas.com - WorldAtlas.com



Worldatlas on facebook. Explore The World. - Press a location on the map to start your expedition. world atlas ... usa and world images. Featured on WorldAtlas ...

I think you've totally lost track of your argument. Not surprising. Those blogs can be confusing.
 
After all that, you repeat the same link. Are you going to call Berg a "liar" again, because he used a different link? This thread is about the 2nd Hottest April ever. How do your electricity prices refute this occurrence?

He cited faulty stats. I called him on it.
 
The earth is 4.5 billion years old.

139 years isn't even a adequate sample to determine trends.

Sure, only problem is - did you ever try to check how many of those 4.5 billion years were livable for humans?
 
So what action do we take ?
We reduce GHG emissions. That basically means:

• Apply carbon taxes
• Do more R&D on sustainable energy supplies and GHG mitigation (e.g. CO2 capture)
• Fix the grid to make it more efficient (and while we're at it, more robust)
• Enhance public transportation, human-powered vehicles and electric vehicle charging
• Help developing nations as well as Brazil, India and China switch to sustainable energy instead of building fossil fuel infrastructure
• Realize that emitting huge amounts of GHGs is not sustainable and has consequences


What empirical proof is there it will work ?
We know carbon taxes will work.
Does a Carbon Tax Work? Ask British Columbia - The New York Times

Carbon capture is in early stages. We know it can't single-handedly fix the problems, but it might help.

We know that sustainable energy works, and its main challenges.

We know that revising transportation can be efficient and effective.

We also know that doing nothing will cause massive problems in the not-too-distant future.


What is this 'ideal' temperature target and why are todays temperatures somehow all wrong?
sigh

The planet doesn't have a thermostat. It's not that there is a One True Temperature that it's supposed to be at. The issue is that the rapid rise in temperatures is causing issues, and locking in further warming, in time scales that doesn't give humans or other wildlife much time to adjust.

That said, we'd be in much better shape if CO2 levels had stayed around 200ppm.

As to what's wrong? Here's a highly condensed and nowhere near complete list:
• Sea levels are rising rapidly, which is a huge threat to coastal areas, where 40% of the world's population lives
• Higher temperatures means more heat waves, more forest fires, more deforestation, more desertification
• Higher temperatures increases water vapor in the atmosphere, which means more extreme weather events
• Wildlife populations are negatively impacted by higher temperatures (including oceans warming and becoming more acidic)
• Higher temperatures puts strains on both agricultural capacity and fresh water supplies
• Global temperatures are already reaching tipping points that will lock in decades, if not centuries, of additional warming (e.g. melting permafrost will result in massive amounts of carbon and methane releases into the atmosphere)


How many in the third world should be denied affordable electrification in order to achieve it ?
Ideally, none. That's why we should try to ensure that they construct a sustainable energy generation infrastructure.


Why aren't you outside the Chinese and Indian embassies protesting their emissions ?
India has one of the most aggressive GHG targets in the world. China also has aggressive targets. There is also lots of international pressure already put on those nations.

While China and India definitely have more work to do, it should be obvious that right now it's the government of the United States that needs to get its act in gear.


If extra CO2 is so bad why is the planet actually 'greening' as a consequence of it ?
The greening is mostly due to human activity, notably increased agriculture and forest conservation programs in China.
Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth | NASA


I don't know about you but I like my species
Then maybe you should show it, by caring about the impacts of climate change on our species -- and millions of other species as well.
 
We reduce GHG emissions. That basically means:

• Apply carbon taxes
• Do more R&D on sustainable energy supplies and GHG mitigation (e.g. CO2 capture)
• Fix the grid to make it more efficient (and while we're at it, more robust)
• Enhance public transportation, human-powered vehicles and electric vehicle charging
• Help developing nations as well as Brazil, India and China switch to sustainable energy instead of building fossil fuel infrastructure
• Realize that emitting huge amounts of GHGs is not sustainable and has consequences

And what empirical proof is there this would make the slightest difference ?

We know carbon taxes will work.

Only for the governments that promote them and this agenda. All it will do will make us all poorer as it is already has via rising energy poverty


sigh

The planet doesn't have a thermostat. It's not that there is a One True Temperature that it's supposed to be at. The issue is that the rapid rise in temperatures is causing issues, and locking in further warming, in time scales that doesn't give humans or other wildlife much time to adjust.

That said, we'd be in much better shape if CO2 levels had stayed around 200ppm.

The paleoclimatic record clearly shows that colder is most certainly NOT better. And how on Earth do you think 200PPM would be ideal or remotely achievable unless you are a lover of famine ?


As to what's wrong? Here's a highly condensed and nowhere near complete list:
• Sea levels are rising rapidly, which is a huge threat to coastal areas, where 40% of the world's population lives
• Higher temperatures means more heat waves, more forest fires, more deforestation, more desertification
• Higher temperatures increases water vapor in the atmosphere, which means more extreme weather events
• Wildlife populations are negatively impacted by higher temperatures (including oceans warming and becoming more acidic)
• Higher temperatures puts strains on both agricultural capacity and fresh water supplies
• Global temperatures are already reaching tipping points that will lock in decades, if not centuries, of additional warming (e.g. melting permafrost will result in massive amounts of carbon and methane releases into the atmosphere)

So prove these things haven't happened over previous even warmer periods over recent millennia ? The instrumental record is nowhere near long enough to be making such sweeping pronouncements of impending doom on any of these points

Ideally, none. That's why we should try to ensure that they construct a sustainable energy generation infrastructure.

So meanwhile they have to keep living wretched impoverished lives until your 'sustainable' becomes affordable which will be never for them

India has one of the most aggressive GHG targets in the world. China also has aggressive targets. There is also lots of international pressure already put on those nations.

While China and India definitely have more work to do, it should be obvious that right now it's the government of the United States that needs to get its act in gear.

BS. These countries are currently the biggest polluters in the world as any view from space will easily confirm. I've seen it first hand too

The greening is mostly due to human activity, notably increased agriculture and forest conservation programs in China.
Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth | NASA

Much of the semi desert is greening too. Why is any of this a bad thing unless you hate our species and want to see it fail ?

Deserts 'greening' from rising CO2 - CSIRO
 
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