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What The Doomsayers Want

Are there any commercial thorium power reactors?

That's my point. China and India have had success with their startup projects, so it appears that scale isn't an issue.
There could be commercial thorium reactors tomorrow if we want them. There could have been a very long time ago had we not been forced into a "Sophie's Choice" of choosing Thorium or Uranium/Plutonium.
The military won out because they wanted weapons potential but we should have continued developing Thorium back then for commercial power. We shelved it only because Congress did not want to invest in development of both fuel cycles.

It was a Cold War style decision but with little attention paid to civilian peacetime needs.
And while Thorium presents its own unique challenges and potential risks, meltdowns are NOT one of them.
That alone is significant enough to warrant an all hands on deck approach to bringing it to the forefront.
 
[FONT=&quot]Green New Deal[/FONT]
[h=1]Fear, loathing, intolerance – and worse[/h][FONT=&quot]The climate-fearing, capitalism-loathing Left cannot abide questions or differing opinions Paul Driessen Throughout history despots had effective ways of reducing dissension in the ranks. Inquisitors burned heretics. Nazi’s burned books – before taking far more extreme measures. Soviets employed famines, gulags, salt mines and executions. ChiComs and other tyrants starved, jailed and murdered millions. Today’s…
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Here's another CC doomsayer, only this one is running for POTUS!

Democratic 2020 Candidate Jay Inslee Has A $9 Trillion Idea To Fix Climate Change

Jay Inslee, the Washington governor now running for president, is proposing $9 trillion in new climate-related investment over the next decade as part of his sweeping climate change policy, one that goes further in detail and ambition than climate plans from any other 2020 presidential candidate.

The “Evergreen Economy Plan” is Inslee’s second climate proposal this month, offering fresh details and price tags that expand upon the broad goals laid out in the first plan. There are even more policies to come in the future, according to Inslee’s campaign.

“Our first was based on the standards that we need to set and the second is a very robust, bold, and comprehensive plan on how to meet those standards,” Inslee told BuzzFeed News.

“An essential part of the theory on this is we want all Americans to have a chance to prosper, have a healthy future, and that includes those in some of the older industries as we’re transitioning to the future,” he said.

In early May, Inslee proposed shuttering all US coal plants by 2030 and pledged to support the coal workers whose jobs would disappear and the communities they live in. The new proposal explains exactly how he will do that, pitching a “G.I. Bill” to ensure retirement and health benefits for workers in the coal, oil, and other industries who could be jobless if the US quickly transitions away from fossil fuels to a clean energy economy. Moreover, these workers and their communities would be offered education and training to pursue work in other sectors.
Yup, that's right. $9 trillion of taxpayers money will be pushed into the green stuff if this guy gets elected. The Germans were dumb enough to go green and look at what's happened to them...
 
or you just don't want to belve humanity is affecting the climate because that would cost you and you want to rally support by getting people to belve it will cost them a lot if they acept man made global warming as true

Speaking for myself, I don't want the CO2 restrictions because they will do nothing to slow down climate change because CO2 is less than 5% of all greenhouse gases. And there are greenhouse gases residing in places other than the atmosphere.

For something as important as stopping climate change, why are environmental 'scientists' relying on the tenants of unproven AGW (that man is the main or only causer of climate change) climate change?
 
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Here's another CC doomsayer, only this one is running for POTUS!

Democratic 2020 Candidate Jay Inslee Has A $9 Trillion Idea To Fix Climate Change


Yup, that's right. $9 trillion of taxpayers money will be pushed into the green stuff if this guy gets elected. The Germans were dumb enough to go green and look at what's happened to them...

Yes, what a disaster. They appear to have developed wide-ranging expertise in the energy sources of the future on top of a booming economy and record low unemployment. Dumb saps!
 
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Speaking for myself, I don't want the CO2 restrictions because they will do nothing to slow down climate change because CO2 is less than 5% of all greenhouse gases. And there are greenhouse gases residing in places other than the atmosphere.

For something as important as stopping climate change, why are environmental 'scientists' relying on the tenants of unproven AGW (that man is the main or only causer of climate change) climate change?

is the temperature changing by even 5 percent how about the concentration of other greenhouse gasses seems we need to worry only about the ones on the rise so if others gasses are on the rise yes hat should be a concern as well

we need the green house effect to some degree in order not to freeze every night that dosent mean a single digit increase to the percent of heat the world retains cant be devastating
 

What are you giggling about? Germany generates a higher proportion of its electricity from renewables than any other large nation, and yet its citizens continue to enjoy a prosperous lifestyle. Nobody said it would be easy, but the Germans (rather than the Americans) are the can-doers these days.

"About one-third of German electricity now comes from renewable sources, a fivefold increase since 2000. In the United States, that figure was about 15 percent last year. Britain generates about a quarter of its power from renewables, and France about 19 percent."
 
What are you giggling about? Germany generates a higher proportion of its electricity from renewables than any other large nation, and yet its citizens continue to enjoy a prosperous lifestyle. Nobody said it would be easy, but the Germans (rather than the Americans) are the can-doers these days.

"About one-third of German electricity now comes from renewable sources, a fivefold increase since 2000. In the United States, that figure was about 15 percent last year. Britain generates about a quarter of its power from renewables, and France about 19 percent."

[h=2]German Employer’s Association Op Ed: “No Expert Politician In Berlin Believes In Switch To Green Energies Any More”[/h]By P Gosselin on 14. May 2019
As the pressure mounts in Germany to switch off coal power plants and to rapidly transition over to green energies, one gets the feeling that it all has more to do with a desperate, last-ditch effort by the green energy proponents to rescue their pet green project.
Photo right: Energy expert, Dr. Björn Peters. Image: Deutscher Arbeitgeberverband
Hat-tip: Die kalte Sonne
Recently, Der Spiegel wrote about how Germany’s once highly ballyhooed Energiewende (transition to green energies) has turned out to be a botched project. Then Michael Schellenberger at Forbes commented that the laws of physics tell us it was never meant to work in the first place.
Behind closed doors, no one in Berlin believes in it
Now, just days ago, energy expert Dr. Björn Peters wrote at the German Association of Employers site that the Energiewende has deteriorated to the point that: “No specialist politician in Berlin believes in the success of the Energiewende any more. Whoever you ask, everyone says this only behind closed doors and thinks that if you go to the press with it you can only lose against the ‘green’ media mainstream.”
Peters warns that what is needed in Germany is a good dose of reality and “a fresh start on energy policy.”. . . .
 

Here you can read more about Germany transition away from fossil fuels and how it in many areas have been a success even if they tried a very ambitious goal of transition away from fossil fuels while at the same time closing their nuclear plants.

"Germany recently increased its renewable energy goal from 55 to 65 percent by 2030 to compensate for the decommissioning of aging nuclear and coal plants. In 2018, renewable energy generated an average of 40.4 percent of the country’s electricity. Analysts are encouraged by early 2019 numbers: Solar power generation jumped 20 percent over last February, while onshore wind increased by 36 percent and offshore wind by 26 percent."

Renewables Generated a Record 65 Percent of Germany’s Electricity Last Week - Yale E360
 
Here you can read more about Germany transition away from fossil fuels and how it in many areas have been a success even if they tried a very ambitious goal of transition away from fossil fuels while at the same time closing their nuclear plants.

"Germany recently increased its renewable energy goal from 55 to 65 percent by 2030 to compensate for the decommissioning of aging nuclear and coal plants. In 2018, renewable energy generated an average of 40.4 percent of the country’s electricity. Analysts are encouraged by early 2019 numbers: Solar power generation jumped 20 percent over last February, while onshore wind increased by 36 percent and offshore wind by 26 percent."

Renewables Generated a Record 65 Percent of Germany’s Electricity Last Week - Yale E360

That is meaningless since these programs havent made a major decline on their carbon emissions- which was the reason why the Germans tried to go green in the first place. Also the costs are so astronomical German household electricity bills are the highest in Europe.

Why Aren't Renewables Decreasing Germany's Carbon Emissions?
 
That is meaningless since these programs havent made a major decline on their carbon emissions- which was the reason why the Germans tried to go green in the first place. Also the costs are so astronomical German household electricity bills are the highest in Europe.

Why Aren't Renewables Decreasing Germany's Carbon Emissions?

Germany are on target to reduce their C02 emissions with 30 percent since 1990 there they instead could have had a increased in C02 emissions if no action have been taken.

Also there investments in renewable energy have lead to economy of scale and technology development so that even Republcans are on a local level starting to see the benefits of renewable energy.

Why Republican Leaders Love Renewable Energy

So Germany's investment in renewable energy havn't been meaningless.

While the reduction of C02 could and should of course have been bigger. There the reason for that it's not is that Germany have had a ambitious goal of both transition away from fossil fuels and at the same close their nuclear plants. Also that more could have been done in areas like transport and heating. There you instead have positive example from other countries then it comes to transport and heating.

Electric car sales grew by 40% in Norway this year - Electrek

World's first electrified public road opens in Sweden - The Local

District heating

A German household spend on avarage two percent of their income on electricity compared to 2.15 percent for US. Also there are no correlation between how much a European household spend on electricity and the household's country's percent of renewable energy.

https://1-stromvergleich.com/electricity-prices-europe/

https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/percentage-income-electricity/
 
Germany are on target to reduce their C02 emissions with 30 percent since 1990 there they instead could have had a increased in C02 emissions if no action have been taken.
Why do you keep lying?

Germany to miss 2020 greenhouse gas emissions target | News | DW | 13.06.2018

What are you giggling about? Germany generates a higher proportion of its electricity from renewables than any other large nation, and yet its citizens continue to enjoy a prosperous lifestyle. Nobody said it would be easy, but the Germans (rather than the Americans) are the can-doers these days.

"About one-third of German electricity now comes from renewable sources, a fivefold increase since 2000. In the United States, that figure was about 15 percent last year. Britain generates about a quarter of its power from renewables, and France about 19 percent."
So? They're missing their emission targets, which makes them hypocrites of the first order.
 
Wanna know how much this Green New Deal will cost taxpayers? Check this out.

What Is the Green New Deal? A Climate Proposal, Explained - The New York Times

It says the entire world needs to get to net-zero emissions by 2050 — meaning as much carbon would have to be absorbed as released into the atmosphere — and the United States must take a “leading role” in achieving that.

The Green New Deal calls on the federal government to dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions, create high-paying jobs, ensure that clean air, clean water and healthy food are basic human rights, and end all forms of oppression.

To achieve those goals, the plan calls for the launch of a “10-year mobilization” to reduce carbon emissions in the United States. It envisions sourcing 100 percent of the country’s electricity from renewable and zero-emissions power, digitizing the nation’s power grid, upgrading every building in the country to be more energy-efficient, and overhauling the nation’s transportation system by investing in electric vehicles and high-speed rail.

To address social justice, the resolution says it is the duty of the government to provide job training and new economic development, particularly to communities that currently rely on jobs in fossil fuel industries.

What's the cost of all this?

One conservative think tank has pegged the cost to the federal government of providing Medicare-to-all at $32 trillion over 10 years, but supporters claimed it would actually save taxpayers $2 trillion over 10 years.

Converting the country to 100 percent clean power? In Vermont alone, which has a goal of achieving 90 percent renewable energy by midcentury, the cost is estimated at $33 billion. Yet the state is seeing job growth in clean energy sectors and expects the transition will spur cost savings for consumers.

Modernizing the electrical grid across the United States could cost as much as $476 billion
 
What's the cost of all this?
Thanks, but no thanks, for the egregious cherry-picking. Let's look at what you cut out, shall we?

What are the costs?
That’s not clear yet.

President Trump claimed it would cost $100 trillion. Supporters of the Green New Deal say climate change could be equally costly to the American economy. For now it’s impossible to pin down dollar figures on the plan.

Some examples of why:

One conservative think tank has pegged the cost to the federal government of providing Medicare-to-all at $32 trillion over 10 years, but supporters claimed it would actually save taxpayers $2 trillion over 10 years.

Converting the country to 100 percent clean power? In Vermont alone, which has a goal of achieving 90 percent renewable energy by midcentury, the cost is estimated at $33 billion. Yet the state is seeing job growth in clean energy sectors and expects the transition will spur cost savings for consumers.

Modernizing the electrical grid across the United States could cost as much as $476 billion, yet reap $2 trillion in benefits, according to a 2011 study issued by the Electric Power Research Institute.

(Emphasis added)

By the way, $476 billion in a single year is pretty spendy. $476 billion for a 10-year federal program, which we have to do anyway, is chicken scratch. $476 billion that results in $2 trillion in benefits is a no-brainer.
 
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We've all heard the loud talking from the chicken littles who blame humans as the cause for all the so-called CO2 rise thats in the atmosphere, but very little admittance from the doomsayers as to what should be done about it.
:roll:

No, dude. Just no.

Climate scientists started recommending action decades ago, including but not limited to:
• Direct regulation of GHG emissions
• Carbon taxes and/or trading schemes
• R&D and subsidizing sustainable energy generation
• R&D and subsidizing carbon capture
• Increasing public transportation
• Reducing reliance on fossil fuels

Their concerns are why CFCs are so heavily regulated, why the ozone hole is just starting to close, why China and India have set aggressive GHG reduction targets, why we had the Kyoto Protocols, why we had the Paris Agreement, why numerous European nations are developing sustainable energy generation....


Yup, the IPCC is obsessed with maintaining a 1.5C rise at the maximum, and squarely puts the blame on humanity (even though there is no definite proof that we are causing a slight rise in temp, nor is there proof that more severe weather or mass extinction will happen).
:roll:

No, dude. Just no.

There is no question that humanity is to blame for the vast majority of global warming. You are in "cigarettes don't cause cancer" territory. Seriously.

Second, the IPCC is hoping to keep it to 1.5C because of the severity of the impacts of warming above those levels. They even wrote a whole report on it. Yes, that includes more extreme weather. It does not include "mass extinction," though it does mean lots of deaths and lots of people needing to move, many of whom are in extreme poverty.

By the way, climate scientists are not responsible for your inaccurate hyperbolic claims.


- Every available space has to be allocated for wind farms (how this can be reconciled with reforestation is not explained)... etc
:roll:

No, dude. Just no.

"Extinction Rebellion" is an activist organization that started in 2018, not a collection of climate scientists.

Why are its demands so extreme? In part because they're trying to make a point -- activists, after all, are not usually known for subtlety. Another critical reason, though, is because people like you keep denying the science. We've squandered decades of time when we could have taken more action earlier, and avoided some of the worst consequences with less impact on individuals.

The situation we're in is the equivalent of your doctor saying "if you keep smoking cigarettes, you're going to get lung cancer." Instead of stopping, you keep lighting up, and you are then shocked -- shocked! -- that you develop lung cancer, and need to take extreme steps (like chemo and surgery), and that you will never get back to normal. Instead of stopping the harmful habit, you want to keep puffing. Not a good plan.
 
Thanks, but no thanks, for the egregious cherry-picking. Let's look at what you cut out, shall we?

What are the costs?
That’s not clear yet.

President Trump claimed it would cost $100 trillion. Supporters of the Green New Deal say climate change could be equally costly to the American economy. For now it’s impossible to pin down dollar figures on the plan.

Some examples of why:

One conservative think tank has pegged the cost to the federal government of providing Medicare-to-all at $32 trillion over 10 years, but supporters claimed it would actually save taxpayers $2 trillion over 10 years.

Converting the country to 100 percent clean power? In Vermont alone, which has a goal of achieving 90 percent renewable energy by midcentury, the cost is estimated at $33 billion. Yet the state is seeing job growth in clean energy sectors and expects the transition will spur cost savings for consumers.

Modernizing the electrical grid across the United States could cost as much as $476 billion, yet reap $2 trillion in benefits, according to a 2011 study issued by the Electric Power Research Institute.

(Emphasis added)

By the way, $476 billion in a single year is pretty spendy. $476 billion for a 10-year federal program, which we have to do anyway, is chicken scratch. $476 billion that results in $2 trillion in benefits is a no-brainer.

LOL no proof this program would reap $2 trillion in benefits, that's just wishful thinking.

And yes, there have already been estimates as to what it would cost, and its far more than the $2 trillion in benefits.

The Green New Deal Would Cost $93 Trillion, Ocasio-Cortez Critics Say | Fortune

$93 trillion. Do the math.
 
LOL no proof this program would reap $2 trillion in benefits, that's just wishful thinking.
There's also no proof it would cost $93 trillion -- and yet you cite that number as though it was fact. How convenient.


And yes, there have already been estimates as to what it would cost, and its far more than the $2 trillion in benefits.
:roll:

First of all, you really should learn to read. The $2 trillion in benefits is specifically in connection with modernizing the grid -- which, by the way, is something the US needs to do anyway.

Second, the $93 trillion figure is total bull****. It's a figure drummed up by a right-wing think tank, specifically discussing the Green New Deal. The GND, however, is not a set of specific and discrete policy recommendations with a tight focus on reducing GHG emissions; it's a broad and vague policy statement that includes health care, job programs, and other unrelated policies. Unsurprisingly, 80% of the AAF's estimates are based on those vague policies, which means they can slap almost any costs they want on their "estimates," thus we end up with ludicrous numbers. Even the report itself acknowledges that it's impossible to put a price tag on most of the changes.

And again, the time frame matters. $20 trillion in one year is a stupendous sum; but over 30 years, if the target is net zero emissions by 2050? Not so much, especially since some of it will produce gains.

You also aren't calculating the costs of doing nothing, which will be enormous.

Back in the real world, it is not clear how much it would cost to substantially reduce carbon emissions, because that depends on what policies and methods we're actually going to adopt. What is clear is that the longer we wait, the more drastic measures we will need, and the higher the costs that climate change will impose on the entire world.
 
First of all, you really should learn to read. The $2 trillion in benefits is specifically in connection with modernizing the grid -- which, by the way, is something the US needs to do anyway.

Thank you, Capt. Obvious. So there's no other benefits then... which means the rest of the spending is lost. Thanks for admitting it.

Second, the $93 trillion figure is total bull****. It's a figure drummed up by a right-wing think tank, specifically discussing the Green New Deal. The GND, however, is not a set of specific and discrete policy recommendations with a tight focus on reducing GHG emissions; it's a broad and vague policy statement that includes health care, job programs, and other unrelated policies.
Yup, its not just a environmental scam, its a socialist one too since there's going to be a jobs guarantee, and you want taxpayers to pay for it too?

$20 trillion in one year is a stupendous sum; but over 30 years
Where does it say its going to be over 30 years? You realize that $20 trillion is our entire GDP, and you want to spend it all on this stupid climate ****? :doh

You also aren't calculating the costs of doing nothing, which will be enormous.
The cost of doing nothing since nothing is going to happen? I'd say the costs would be zero. Only the chicken littles want to spend huge amounts of money over something that wont happen, which is the point of this thread.

Back in the real world, it is not clear how much it would cost to substantially reduce carbon emissions, because that depends on what policies and methods we're actually going to adopt. What is clear is that the longer we wait, the more drastic measures we will need, and the higher the costs that climate change will impose on the entire world.

BS. :screwy
 
Thank you, Capt. Obvious. So there's no other benefits then... which means the rest of the spending is lost. Thanks for admitting it.
:roll:

Yet again! The claim from your own source is specific: Upgrading the electrical grid will cost $476 billion, and produce an economic benefit of $2 trillion. The $2 trillion figure does NOT refer to "all the benefits of reducing GHG emissions." Do you not actually read your own sources?


Yup, its not just a environmental scam, its a socialist one too since there's going to be a jobs guarantee, and you want taxpayers to pay for it too?
:roll:

I never said that I supported every single aspect of the Green New Deal. More to the point is that it is ludicrous to try and attach dollar figures to the GND, because a) it's not an actual set of discrete policy proposals, and b) a lot of what it proposes is not directly linked to climate change.


Where does it say its going to be over 30 years? You realize that $20 trillion is our entire GDP, and you want to spend it all on this stupid climate ****?
Net zero by 2050 is the goal for the GND. Try to keep up.


The cost of doing nothing since nothing is going to happen? I'd say the costs would be zero.
Yes, you would say that. You'd also be dead wrong. Climate change is already costing the US $240 billion a year, and could go over $2 trillion (in 2019 dollars) per year by 2100. Not to mention the loss of lives, notably due to heat waves, which are the deadliest type of extreme weather event.
 
We've all heard the loud talking from the chicken littles who blame humans as the cause for all the so-called CO2 rise thats in the atmosphere, but very little admittance from the doomsayers as to what should be done about it. Well, here is what the IPCC is demanding:

We have 12 years to limit climate change catastrophe, warns UN | Environment | The Guardian


Yup, the IPCC is obsessed with maintaining a 1.5C rise at the maximum, and squarely puts the blame on humanity (even though there is no definite proof that we are causing a slight rise in temp, nor is there proof that more severe weather or mass extinction will happen).

In order to get to specifics, here is an article from the BBC on how to achieve a net zero carbon footprint in the UK.

Extinction Rebellion: What do they want and is it realistic? - BBC News



So there you go:

- Every available space has to be allocated for wind farms (how this can be reconciled with reforestation is not explained)
- No more cars with fossil fuels.
- You are allowed to take a flight on an airliner once every two years
- You will be forced to eat a mainly vegetarian diet
- No mention about how to get China, India or any other countries to adopt this (War? Economic sanctions?)

There you have it, folks. This is the world they want you to live in (even though all this doomsday stuff is unproven).

The good thing is it takes absolutely no energy whatsoever to build the replacement for all furnaces nor any of the new green electrical generation facilities. :roll:
 
I havent seen any facts that point out to an inevitable rise in world temp, nor do I see any problems if it does. On the other hand, if you have no issues living with these kinds of new rules, be my guest.

Antivaxxers don't see any issue with being unvaccinated.
 
:roll:

Yet again! The claim from your own source is specific: Upgrading the electrical grid will cost $476 billion, and produce an economic benefit of $2 trillion. The $2 trillion figure does NOT refer to "all the benefits of reducing GHG emissions." Do you not actually read your own sources?
I was talking about the overall benefits- learn2read. The so-called $2 trillion benefit is a guess too. What other benefits are there? Show me.

I never said that I supported every single aspect of the Green New Deal. More to the point is that it is ludicrous to try and attach dollar figures to the GND, because a) it's not an actual set of discrete policy proposals, and b) a lot of what it proposes is not directly linked to climate change.
That would still mean you support a net zero carbon emissions- that means electric vehicles only, no airplanes, vegetarianism, and put up a trillion windfarms. Nuts.

Net zero by 2050 is the goal for the GND. Try to keep up.

See above.

Yes, you would say that. You'd also be dead wrong. Climate change is already costing the US $240 billion a year, and could go over $2 trillion (in 2019 dollars) per year by 2100.
Show proof this is happening.

Antivaxxers don't see any issue with being unvaccinated.
Yup, youre right- I would place doomsayer ecomaniacs who want to spend trillions on nothing at the same camp as the anti-vaxxers.
 
I was talking about the overall benefits- learn2read. The so-called $2 trillion benefit is a guess too. What other benefits are there? Show me.


That would still mean you support a net zero carbon emissions- that means electric vehicles only, no airplanes, vegetarianism, and put up a trillion windfarms. Nuts.



See above.


Show proof this is happening.


Yup, youre right- I would place doomsayer ecomaniacs who want to spend trillions on nothing at the same camp as the anti-vaxxers.

I think we can achieve net zero carbon, by simply addressing that real energy problem we have.
Alternative energy is partially worthless because it has low density and a terrible duty cycle.
On the other side, we do not have enough hydrocarbon fuels stored by nature to allow every one alive,
to sustain a first world lifestyle for very long.
We can only minimize the energy required for our first world lifestyles so far, before we start lowering our standards.
The alternatives can provide the energy necessary, but not in their current form.
Storing and accumulating that energy in the form of man made hydrocarbon fuels, would be a sustainable path
forward, for all humanity, would quiet the carbon alarmist, but would also make the oil refineries insane profits.
This could really be a win all around, except it does not address the real motives of the green new deal movement.
 
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