• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The IPCC Is Wrong

Dude? All you're doing is repeating your first post.

And again, you utterly fail to understand both the number of claims made in a single Assessment Report (it's literally in the thousands), the trivial nature of those errors (no, all of AGW is not refuted because they miscalculated how much of the Netherlands is below sea level), and how the errors get corrected.

To describe your position as fallacious would be an epic understatement.

If you actually read the link you will see that these are very different allegations as to the faulty and dishonest research of the IPCC. No error is trivial and to dismiss these as such reeks of pure corruption and the support of faulty science.

To proclaim the IPCC as always right is equal to a fanatical Muslim terrorist proclaiming their version of Allah is always right. Dont be a fanatic.
 
If you actually read the link you will see that these are very different allegations as to the faulty and dishonest research of the IPCC.
No, what you posted is a handful of errors. Yet again, the IPCC has made tens of thousands of claims over more than 10 years. The percentage of flaws is tiny, and the IPCC usually recognizes any errors. If you can show us any scientific organization that has presented such an exhaustive set of surveys, and got every single last detail right, you get a cookie.

Yes, the errors are trivial. What is the "corruption" when they say that 55% of Holland is below sea level, when the number is 26%? Were they bribed by the engineering firms that make dams? Does that error disprove their claims about CO2? Please.

You also fail to understand what the IPCC actually does. It doesn't perform the research, it reviews it and writes it up for policy makers. Meaning that the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of papers that they reviewed are not proven false because they make a handful of errors.

By the way, do you apply this level of rigor to the climate change deniers? Do you pore over every entry at WUWT looking for errors and blatant misrepresentations? When the deniers get a percentage wrong, do you rail against them as corrupt? Do you do the same for every scientific field? I see no indication of you doing so -- and yes, they definitely make a lot of errors along those lines. Thanks, but no thanks, for the double standard.


To proclaim the IPCC as always right is equal to a fanatical Muslim terrorist proclaiming their version of Allah is always right.
sigh

No one has ever said that the IPCC is 100% absolutely immaculately perfect.

Your standards are utterly unreasonable and applied in a heavily biased manner. Spare us further such nonsense, kthx.
 
No, what you posted is a handful of errors. Yet again, the IPCC has made tens of thousands of claims over more than 10 years. The percentage of flaws is tiny, and the IPCC usually recognizes any errors. If you can show us any scientific organization that has presented such an exhaustive set of surveys, and got every single last detail right, you get a cookie.

Yes, the errors are trivial. What is the "corruption" when they say that 55% of Holland is below sea level, when the number is 26%? Were they bribed by the engineering firms that make dams? Does that error disprove their claims about CO2? Please.

You also fail to understand what the IPCC actually does. It doesn't perform the research, it reviews it and writes it up for policy makers. Meaning that the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of papers that they reviewed are not proven false because they make a handful of errors.

By the way, do you apply this level of rigor to the climate change deniers? Do you pore over every entry at WUWT looking for errors and blatant misrepresentations? When the deniers get a percentage wrong, do you rail against them as corrupt? Do you do the same for every scientific field? I see no indication of you doing so -- and yes, they definitely make a lot of errors along those lines. Thanks, but no thanks, for the double standard.



sigh

No one has ever said that the IPCC is 100% absolutely immaculately perfect.

Your standards are utterly unreasonable and applied in a heavily biased manner. Spare us further such nonsense, kthx.

Smokescreen to cover the retreat.
 
No, what you posted is a handful of errors. Yet again, the IPCC has made tens of thousands of claims over more than 10 years. The percentage of flaws is tiny, and the IPCC usually recognizes any errors.
Wrong, it took public outcries for the IPCC to revise their papers. The fact that these errors get published is how they are discovered in the first place.

Yes, the errors are trivial. What is the "corruption" when they say that 55% of Holland is below sea level, when the number is 26%? Were they bribed by the engineering firms that make dams? Does that error disprove their claims about CO2? Please.
If they cant get the little facts correct, then you can be damned sure their overall conclusions are suspect. That same paper I cited (written by someone affiliated by the IPCC by the way) calls for an independent review of their papers, and I agree.

You also fail to understand what the IPCC actually does. It doesn't perform the research, it reviews it and writes it up for policy makers.
Duh, I know that, pal. This is why the IPCC cannot be trusted because its politicized and looked over by government bureaucrats.

By the way, do you apply this level of rigor to the climate change deniers? Do you pore over every entry at WUWT looking for errors and blatant misrepresentations?
I welcome any criticism of IPCC critics. Bring it on. Show me where theyre wrong.

The problem is that the mainstream media ignores the counterclaims in order to focus solely on the apocalypse that the IPCC predicts will happen.
 
Wrong, it took public outcries for the IPCC to revise their papers.
It took public discussion for the IPCC to notice the issues. Yet again, there are probably hundreds of thousands of claims in each Assessment Report, and it takes years to go over it all. No one should be surprised that they get a few trivial items wrong, and the solution for several of the errors is fairly obvious (stick to peer-reviewed literature).


If they cant get the little facts correct, then you can be damned sure their overall conclusions are suspect.
No, that's not how research actually works. I cannot imagine that there is any resource, any textbook, any peer-reviewed journal that gets every single last tiny detail 100% correct. Missing an utterly miniscule percentage of claims is not a valid excuse to reject the truth.

I mean, really. Let's grab a random claim from IPCC AR5 Physical Science Report:

It is very likely that anthropogenic forcings have made a discernible
contribution to surface and subsurface oceanic salinity
changes since the 1960s. More than 40 studies of regional and
global surface and subsurface salinity show patterns consistent with
understanding of anthropogenic changes in the water cycle and ocean
circulation. The expected pattern of anthropogenic amplification of climatological
salinity patterns derived from climate models is detected
in the observations although there remains incomplete understanding
of the observed internal variability of the surface and sub-surface salinity
fields. {3.3.2, 10.4.2, Table 10.1}

IPCC AR5, Physical Science, p 870

Drilling down to one specific claim in referenced section (10.4.2):
For the period 1950–2000 the observed amplification of the
surface salinity is 16 ± 10% per °C of warming and is twice the simulated
surface salinity change in CMIP3 models. This difference between
the surface salinity amplification is plausibly caused by the tendency
of CMIP3 ocean models mixing surface salinity into deeper layers and
consequently surface salinity increases at a slower rate than observed
(Durack et al., 2012).

ibid p903

(That page 903? It easily has a dozen claims on that page alone. Probably more, depending on what you count as a "claim.")

What did you find that specifically falsifies a) the claim that 40 studies show anthropogenic changes, AND b) any of the relevant studies? What falsifies the claim that oceanic salinity is changing? How does a bad prediction about Himalayan glaciers actually falsify any of the quoted sections above?


That same paper I cited (written by someone affiliated by the IPCC by the way) calls for an independent review of their papers, and I agree.
lol... Okay then. Who is going to pay thousands of scientists to spend 5 years poring over the papers? Who's going to select those reviewers? Do you not understand that's what the IPCC does?!? They review papers, they determine what the current research says, they assign degrees of uncertainty and/or likelihood, and pull it all together so that policy makers know what's going on.

And what's the point to adding yet another layer of reviewers, since the deniers will not accept the conclusions, even if it was 100% correct?


Duh, I know that, pal. This is why the IPCC cannot be trusted because its politicized and looked over by government bureaucrats.
And yet, you provide no evidence that the IPCC is actually getting huge swaths of climate science wrong. Hmmmm


I welcome any criticism of IPCC critics. Bring it on. Show me where theyre wrong.
I already pointed out that your "criticisms" are petty and fallacious. If you actually need more, you can start here:

https://www.amazon.com/Merchants-Doubt-Handful-Scientists-Obscured/dp/1608193942

Learning from mistakes in climate research | SpringerLink

Or just do your own research, I'm getting awfully tired of looking stuff up only to have it completely ignored. I'll even give you a head start.
LMGTFY


The problem is that the mainstream media ignores the counterclaims in order to focus solely on the apocalypse that the IPCC predicts will happen.
The MSM ignores the counterclaims because they have finally recognized that the "counterclaims" are not legitimate and are promoting damaging ideologies. Although they sometimes still fall for the fallacious "provide balance for fake controversies" on many topics, it seems that they've wised up to that error when it comes to climate change (and vaccines, and a few other items).

As it says in my signature: "When the mistakes fall disproportionately on one side, it is no respect for the notion of truth to pretend that everything is even."
 
LOL.

“Amazongate”. The fake controversy that the deniers jumped on immediately.

The newspaper that ‘broke’ that story retracted it.

But the deniers still go with it.

Redirect Notice

Now... you were concerned about organizations that lie?

Yeah...usually things get retracted when you get caught passing BS. You don’t get bonus points for that.
 
You have to be a complete moron to still believe in this global warming scam

Yes I agree that only complete morons believe that global warming is a scam.
 
It took public discussion for the IPCC to notice the issues.
If the IPCC actually bothered to review their papers thoroughly before they published them, which any reputable scientific organization does...

No one should be surprised that they get a few trivial items wrong,
As Ive said, any report sloppy enough to get these wrong means they get other stuff wrong.

I cannot imagine that there is any resource, any textbook, any peer-reviewed journal that gets every single last tiny detail 100% correct.
Missing details is one thing, purposely creating misleading reports to advance an agenda is something else.

How does a bad prediction about Himalayan glaciers actually falsify any of the quoted sections above?

When they use sources like a magazine article and not a study, it completely invalidates whatever they publish. No one in their right mind would believe such a report.

Who is going to pay thousands of scientists to spend 5 years poring over the papers?
Not my problem, but if they want to publish stuff they better get their facts right, all of them.

They review papers, they determine what the current research says, they assign degrees of uncertainty and/or likelihood, and pull it all together so that policy makers know what's going on.
The IPCC cherry picks stuff to suit their agenda, even including using suspect sources so they can keep being funded by the UN. If they proclaimed that there's no problem, do you think they'd keep their jobs?

And yet, you provide no evidence that the IPCC is actually getting huge swaths of climate science wrong.
The IPCC has got plenty wrong. Just look at the many articles linked in this thread.

I already pointed out that your "criticisms" are petty and fallacious. If you actually need more, you can start here:

LOL book links? No. Show me specifically where and what the IPCC critics are getting wrong.

The MSM ignores the counterclaims because they have finally recognized that the "counterclaims" are not legitimate and are promoting damaging ideologies.
Bull****. The MSM loves sensationalist stories, and they have gotten many major news events wrong.
 
Think everyone in the IPCC agrees with their own findings? Think again. Here are direct quotes from former IPCC scientists and reviewers about this organizaiton's agenda:

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.” – UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists.” – Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

Temperature measurements show that the [climate model-predicted mid-troposphere] hot zone is non-existent. This is more than sufficient to invalidate global climate models and projections made with them!”- UN IPCC Scientist Dr. Steven M. Japar, a PhD atmospheric chemist who was part of Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) Second (1995) and Third (2001) Assessment Reports, and has authored 83 peer-reviewed publications and in the areas of climate change, atmospheric chemistry, air pollutions and vehicle emissions.

UN IPCC Scientist Kenneth P. Green Declares ‘A Death Spiral for Climate Alarmism’ – September 30, 2009 – ‘We can expect climate crisis industry to grow increasingly shrill, and increasingly hostile toward anyone who questions their authority’ – Dr. Kenneth Green was a Working Group 1 expert reviewer for the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in 2001

The whole climate change issue is about to fall apart — Heads will roll!’ -South African UN Scientist Dr. Will Alexander, April 12, 2009 – Professor Alexander, is Emeritus of the Department of Civil and Biosystems Engineering at the University of Pretoria in South Africa, and a former member of the United Nations Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters.

I was at the table with three Europeans, and we were having lunch. And they were talking about their role as lead authors. And they were talking about how they were trying to make the report so dramatic that the United States would just have to sign that Kyoto Protocol,” Christy told CNN on May 2, 2007. – Alabama State Climatologist Dr. John Christy of the University of Alabama in Huntsville, served as a UN IPCC lead author in 2001 for the 3rd assessment report and detailed how he personally witnessed UN scientists attempting to distort the science for political purposes.

Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.” – Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

The quantity of CO2 we produce is insignificant in terms of the natural circulation between air, water and soil… I am doing a detailed assessment of the UN IPCC reports and the Summaries for Policy Makers, identifying the way in which the Summaries have distorted the science.” – South African Nuclear Physicist and Chemical Engineer Dr. Philip Lloyd, a UN IPCC co-coordinating lead author who has authored over 150 refereed publications.

The claims of the IPCC are dangerous unscientific nonsense” – declared IPCC reviewer and climate researcher Dr Vincent Gray, of New Zealand in 2007. Gray was an expert reviewer on every single draft of the IPCC reports going back to 1990, author of more than 100 scientific publications. (LINK) & (LINK)

After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri’s asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it’s hard to remain quiet.” – Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society’s Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

UN Scientists Who Have Turned on the UN IPCC & Man-Made Climate Fears — A Climate Depot Flashback Report | Climate Depot
 
Think everyone in the IPCC agrees with their own findings? Think again. Here are direct quotes from former IPCC scientists and reviewers about this organizaiton's agenda:



UN Scientists Who Have Turned on the UN IPCC & Man-Made Climate Fears — A Climate Depot Flashback Report | Climate Depot

From the website of a guy who is literally a political operative employed to be a denier by oil and coal companies.

Why even climate science denialist Marc Morano knows not to bet against global warming data | Environment | The Guardian
 
Shoot the messenger all you want but try and prove that these quotes made by actual IPCC scientists are false, please.

Thats the joke. You paste some ****ty source, and now you expect SOMEONE ELSE to comb through the quotes to see which ones were taken out of context, which ones were from kooky deniers who may have once been on an IPCC committee, and which are mostly makde up.

I can do a random example:

Your cut and paste:
UN IPCC Scientist Kenneth P. Green Declares ‘A Death Spiral for Climate Alarmism’ – September 30, 2009 – ‘We can expect climate crisis industry to grow increasingly shrill, and increasingly hostile toward anyone who questions their authority’ – Dr. Kenneth Green was a Working Group 1 expert reviewer for the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in 2001

reality:
Green's profile at AEI describes him as an “Expert Reviewer” of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Working Group 1, 2001. All this really means is that Green asked to see a draft IPCC report and agreed not to publicly comment on the draft.

and: Based on a search of major academic journals, Green has not published any peer-reviewed articles on the subject of climate.

Given that literally ANYONE in the world can request this, its really kind of a lie, dontcha think?

Kenneth Green | DeSmogBlog


Now, in true denier fashion, you'll demand me to investigate ALL the other quotes, rather than admitting your source is a biased liar.
 
Thats the joke. You paste some ****ty source, and now you expect SOMEONE ELSE to comb through the quotes to see which ones were taken out of context, which ones were from kooky deniers who may have once been on an IPCC committee, and which are mostly makde up.

I can do a random example:

Your cut and paste:


reality:

Given that literally ANYONE in the world can request this, its really kind of a lie, dontcha think?

Kenneth Green | DeSmogBlog


Now, in true denier fashion, you'll demand me to investigate ALL the other quotes, rather than admitting your source is a biased liar.

Pathetic strawman- he is either a reviewer for the IPCC or not, and since anyone can review it then it counts. Green's own wikipedia page shows that he has indeed served as a reviewer for the IPCC, so this means the quote is accurate. You gotta do better than that.

Kenneth P. Green - Wikipedia

He has twice served as expert reviewer for publications of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Working Group, including a 1999 special report on aviation and the global atmosphere, and a 2001 volume on the science of climate change.
 
Pathetic strawman- he is either a reviewer for the IPCC or not, and since anyone can review it then it counts. Green's own wikipedia page shows that he has indeed served as a reviewer for the IPCC, so this means the quote is accurate. You gotta do better than that.

Kenneth P. Green - Wikipedia

What?

Literally ANYONE can do this.

Registration opens for Expert and Government Reviews of the Second Order Drafts of two IPCC Special Reports — IPCC

You can’t be this dense. You must be trolling.
 
Think everyone in the IPCC agrees with their own findings? Think again. Here are direct quotes from former IPCC scientists and reviewers about this organizaiton's agenda:



UN Scientists Who Have Turned on the UN IPCC & Man-Made Climate Fears — A Climate Depot Flashback Report | Climate Depot

RationalWiki: Gish Gallop

By the way: If you genuinely believe that it is unfair to attack the messenger, then by your own criteria there is no point in attacking the IPCC in general. Yet again! The IPCC only collects the data for review, it doesn't write it. Thus, broad comments like "the IPCC is wrong!" written by someone who wrote about, say, nuclear power in 2001 does not actually prove that the tens of thousands of scientific claims are wrong (let alone misrepresented).

What you need to do is show what SPECIFIC items are wrong AND remain uncorrected AND are substantial. Even by your own admission, you haven't done that -- all you've said is "if they get this dozen things wrong, they cannot be trusted!" Thanks, but no thanks, for the double standards.
 
Do you deny he is a reviewer? Because thats what is quoted. You dont get to decide who is a reviewer or not, the IPCC does.

As expected, when you lose the argument you go back to ad homs. You really are pathetic.

Pathetic is definitely a thing here... but its not coming from me.
 
RationalWiki: Gish Gallop

By the way: If you genuinely believe that it is unfair to attack the messenger, then by your own criteria there is no point in attacking the IPCC in general. Yet again! The IPCC only collects the data for review, it doesn't write it. Thus, broad comments like "the IPCC is wrong!" written by someone who wrote about, say, nuclear power in 2001 does not actually prove that the tens of thousands of scientific claims are wrong (let alone misrepresented).

What you need to do is show what SPECIFIC items are wrong AND remain uncorrected AND are substantial. Even by your own admission, you haven't done that -- all you've said is "if they get this dozen things wrong, they cannot be trusted!" Thanks, but no thanks, for the double standards.

Wrong- the IPCC is not the messenger- they are the agents of this climate hysteria. You really need to work on your logic.

Pathetic is definitely a thing here... but its not coming from me.

You lost. Get over it.
 
Here is more proof that the IPCC has been run by agenda driven scientists to get money for their own use:

The 'anomalies’ of Dr Rajendra Pachauri’s charity accounts - Telegraph

Last winter, Dr Pachauri’s reputation took a hammering. On the one hand, there was the exposure of all those glaring and alarmist scientific errors in the IPCC’s last major report, produced under his guidance in 2007. On the other was the revelation in this newspaper of how his prestige as the “world’s top climate official” had coincided with a massive expansion in the fortunes of Teri, his Delhi-based research institute. Not only had Pachauri been appointed as an adviser to some of the richest banks and investment funds in the world, but Teri’s empire had mushroomed to include branches in Europe, North America, Dubai, Japan and South-East Asia.

When Dr Richard North and I came to examine this empire, our interest was drawn to Teri Europe, based in a suburban house in south London, which is registered under British law as a charity and is obliged to publish its accounts on the Charity Commission website. When we looked at these, however, they seemed rather odd. The figures showed the charity’s income and expenditure rising steadily in its early years – but from 2006 onwards they suddenly plunged to below £10,000 a year.

This was significant because £10,000 is the threshold below which a charity does not have to publish full accounts. Yet we knew that in these years Teri Europe was rapidly expanding, receiving sums way above that threshold. These included several payments from the UK government, such as £30,000 for the services of an employee of Dr Pachauri’s Delhi office to act as his co-editor on the IPCC’s 2007 Synthesis Report.
 
Chief doomsayer and science quack Michael Mann now says you dont need to do any scientific research anymore since you can "see global warming."

Michael Mann, climate scientist: Data 'increasingly unnecessary' because 'we can see climate change' - Washington Times

Leading climate doomsayer Michael Mann recently downplayed the importance of climate change science, telling Democrats that data and models “increasingly are unnecessary” because the impact is obvious.

“Fundamentally, I’m a climate scientist and have spent much of my career with my head buried in climate-model output and observational climate data trying to tease out the signal of human-caused climate change,” Mr. Mann told the Democratic Platform Drafting Committee at a hearing.

“What is disconcerting to me and so many of my colleagues is that these tools that we’ve spent years developing increasingly are unnecessary because we can see climate change, the impacts of climate change, now, playing out in real time, on our television screens, in the 24-hour news cycle,” he said.

So much for science, eh?
 
Back
Top Bottom