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Is the environment a partisan issue?

Everyone supports the use of DDT against malaria. We always have. We always will.

Using DDT as a broad range pesticide in agriculture is bad and banned and always will be.

Get a clue.

DDT, a pesticide banned in the developed world, should be used to spray houses in all countries where people suffer from malaria, the World Health Organisation said yesterday, 30 years after it phased the practice out.

Banned pesticide backed for malaria control | World news | The Guardian

The Guardian seems to think it was phased out.
 
It was banned for agriculture, never for malaria control. Learn history.

If I repeat this fact again, at some point you'll incorporate it into your lexicon of knowledge and become aware of having bought a BS story for years?

The new push to use DDT to kill the malaria-transmitting mosquito in Africa and other parts of the world with severe death tolls from the disease will dismay many environmentalists.

Banned pesticide backed for malaria control | World news | The Guardian

The Guardian is a very lefty/green leaning paper.
 
Is the environment a partisan issue?

Yes.

The right place great importance on greed and self. They are not willing to worry devote energy or resources to thinks that do not benefit them immediately.

The left is much more altruistic and generous. They are willing to sacrifice today to leave a better world behind.

So, as you see, it is a partisan issue.
 
The main problem seems to be that many right-wingers are idealogically opposed to the collective action needed to deal with global environmental problems. For some of them, the only way they can cope with the resulting cognitive dissonance is to simply deny that such problems exist. It's not a logical or rational approach, but then these are not logical or rational people.
 
So, what's gonna happen?

"Holy crap, Carson didn't harm anyone because DDT always did and does continue to be used against malaria. All she did was stop us from using billions of gallons of it on all of our land."

or

"Carson murdered millions of brown people with fake science."



I'm atwitter.
 
Well, it is, isn't it, but why is it?
Mostly because the fossil fuel industry started throwing money at Republicans to stop environmentalists from hurting their business.

It doesn't help that the most effective tools we have to mitigate climate change and other environmental issues are regulations, laws, carbon taxes, and international cooperation -- all of which have become anathema to Republicans and conservatives, even when we know that they work.

And yes, they work. International coordinations dramatically reduced CFCs; early environmental laws have had huge success in curtailing obvious forms of air pollution, like smog. I'm guessing the fact that they work makes them even less appealing to conservatives, who hate regulation as a matter of principle, regardless of any practical considerations.

Another factor is that, unfortunately, partisan attacks sometimes work. It is now a heuristic (a mental shortcut) which makes it easy to attack activists and scientists, as there is a built-in audience who responds to those attacks.


Does concern about the negative effects of the proposed fish farm automatically label me a left-winger? Could a conservative ever raise those concerns and maybe take those steps I described?
Sure. In fact, in the US, environmental protections were originally a bipartisan effort. And it's not like concerns about a fish farm changes your views on taxes, or safety nets, or race relations, or any of a dozen other political questions.

That said, I do think a typical conservative (in the US at least) would be less than thrilled about, say, using the power of the state to stop a potentially harmful corporate project.
 


Maybe I can explain it for you this way:

When Rachel uncovered DDE, it became scientific fact. Every lab in the world was capable of biodegrading DDT and observing the resulting chemical. Further, they were and are all capable of establishing the impact on an individual, environment and generations from the chemical given concentration in a medium. All of the calculations have been made since DDE was discovered by Rachel.

There's no mystery. There has never been a mystery.

Everyone knows, and has known since the 1960s, exactly what DDE is, how it appears, what it does and everything else. The debate has always been balancing the harm against the benefit of controlling malaria. Some say more, some say less, and that changes over time according to population, habitat, weather and other factors.

Once again:

DDE is not a question. It's not a mystery. We know everything about it and we have since Rachel discovered it.

We knew instantly to stop using it for agriculture. So it was banned for use in that purpose (thank God). We didn't stop using it for malaria, but we started employing a cost benefit equation.

One cannot blame Carson for us knowing about DDE and taking precautions based on the scientific fact established. Yes, we did cut back on use against malaria - in places where the cost exceeded the benefit. And yes the debate about how much continues and always will because circumstances change. But no matter what, we gotta consider DDE. It impacts generations via an individual, a mutagen, a teratogen. It creates the stuff of nightmares, like a heavy metal.
 
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See post #33.


Side question (for everyone): I'm the only person here, at this thread, at this website, who's read Silent Spring. Right?

So when the Guardian says that DDT was stopped from being used in the fight against Malaria you think you have made that go away?????

Wow. What denial.
 
Maybe I can explain it for you this way:

When Rachel uncovered DDE, it became scientific fact. Every lab in the world was capable of biodegrading DDT and observing the resulting chemical. Further, they were and are all capable of establishing the impact on an individual, environment and generations from the chemical given concentration in a medium. All of the calculations have been made since DDE was discovered by Rachel.

There's no mystery. There has never been a mystery.

Everyone knows, and has known since the 1960s, exactly what DDE is, how it appears, what it does and everything else. The debate has always been balancing the harm against the benefit of controlling malaria. Some say more, some say less, and that changes over time according to population, habitat, weather and other factors.

Once again:

DDE is not a question. It's not a mystery. We know everything about it and we have since Rachel discovered it.

We knew instantly to stop using it for agriculture. So it was banned for use in that purpose (thank God). We didn't stop using it for malaria, but we started employing a cost benefit equation.

One cannot blame Carson for us knowing about DDE and taking precautions based on the scientific fact established. Yes, we did cut back on use against malaria - in places where the cost exceeded the benefit. And yes the debate about how much continues and always will because circumstances change. But no matter what, we gotta consider DDE. It impacts generations via an individual, a mutagen, a teratogen. It creates the stuff of nightmares, like a heavy metal.

When Politics Kills: Malaria and the DDT Story | Competitive Enterprise Institute

When Politics Kills: Malaria and the DDT Story

In December 2000, international delegates and observers met in South Africa to negotiate the Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, a list of 12 chemicals, including DDT, which will soon be banned worldwide.

If only the Green movement was capable to reasonable thinking. DDT-Bad!.
 
So when the Guardian says that DDT was stopped from being used in the fight against Malaria you think you have made that go away?????

Wow. What denial.

Nothing in the article contradicts anything I've claimed. The use of DDT was, in some places, advised against and used in minimal quantity even in the face of malaria. It was never banned. Your article does not claim it was ever banned.

It was and will always remain banned for agricultural use.
 
If soil, air and water were being literally poisoned in a manner that cannot be mitigated by activity that is not justified on an economic basis. Pollution saves lives, because the only way pollution exists is with industrialization which advances medicine, science, standard of living, transportation etc.

It would take more then a hypothetical, especially one like escaped Atlantic Salmon which I think is unfounded because in two seperate hemispheres theyve failed to thrive and cannot outcompete the pacific.
See, Grand Mal there are people that want to make it a partisan issue.
 
Maybe I can explain it for you this way:

When Rachel uncovered DDE, it became scientific fact. Every lab in the world was capable of biodegrading DDT and observing the resulting chemical. Further, they were and are all capable of establishing the impact on an individual, environment and generations from the chemical given concentration in a medium. All of the calculations have been made since DDE was discovered by Rachel.

There's no mystery. There has never been a mystery.

Everyone knows, and has known since the 1960s, exactly what DDE is, how it appears, what it does and everything else. The debate has always been balancing the harm against the benefit of controlling malaria. Some say more, some say less, and that changes over time according to population, habitat, weather and other factors.

Once again:

DDE is not a question. It's not a mystery. We know everything about it and we have since Rachel discovered it.

We knew instantly to stop using it for agriculture. So it was banned for use in that purpose (thank God). We didn't stop using it for malaria, but we started employing a cost benefit equation.

One cannot blame Carson for us knowing about DDE and taking precautions based on the scientific fact established. Yes, we did cut back on use against malaria - in places where the cost exceeded the benefit. And yes the debate about how much continues and always will because circumstances change. But no matter what, we gotta consider DDE. It impacts generations via an individual, a mutagen, a teratogen. It creates the stuff of nightmares, like a heavy metal.


Wow we have an uncritical Rachel Carson fan!

The woman was actually a poor ecologist because her many claims in her book ( I have owned and read the book a few times) has been addressed as being incorrect and that DDT was a very effective chemical.

100 Things You Should Know About DDT

LINK

This will show how bad Carson was and the published research showing that DDT didn't do all those egg shell thinning either.
 
If only the Green movement was capable to reasonable thinking. DDT-Bad!.

You have no idea what you're talking about. It's a mutagen and teratogen. It mutates a fetus. It's generational poisoning the likes of which produces babies with two heads.

It's like mercury. It's unimaginably horrible. But we use it, aware danger only exists where biodegraded and persistent, in the face of malaria. We hope someday to not need to. There are many alternatives that become more effective every year and there are ideas with potential.


It will never again be used for agriculture. We stopped doing that immediately when Carson found DDE.
 
Well, it is, isn't it, but why is it? Why should environmental issues be divided down the liberal-conservative line? Here's a hypothetical example, partly (very light part) true but just an illustration.
I'm retired, living on my Canada Pension and union pension, never been much concerned with environmental issues because that stuff always seemed to be for those with more time on their hands than I've had. Keep myself as busy as I want to be and spend whatever time I can fishing. So I hear there's a proposal to put a fish-farm out in the bay near where I launch my boat, near where I like to drop crab traps. I don't like what I've read about what happens to the bottom under those net-pens and what's worse, they're going to farm Atlantic salmon, which escape now and then. I remember what they taught me in school about introducing a foreign species into an eco-system (oops- there's that 'eco' word) and I don't like that, either. More I think about it, I get more pissed off.
So I write to my MP. I write to the department of fisheries and oceans. Hell, I even write a letter to the editor. And I complain about it to anyone who'll listen and I'm not the only one who likes to fish that area. Next thing you know it gets a mention on the news. Next thing after that the fish-farm company launches a campaign citing 'special-interest groups' (me) and people in the city hundreds of miles away start to talk about it.
Now I'm a left-wing activist. Now I'm anti-progress, anti-jobs and probably a socialist who's against corporate profit, never mind that 90% of my wages had been paid by corporations. A line is drawn, and yep- the line is right down the partisan divide. So my question is, does concern about the negative effects of the proposed fish farm automatically label me a left-winger? Could a conservative ever raise those concerns and maybe take those steps I described?


In my view, no, you are not a left-wing activist. You are an activist. Except for the extreme fringe like Greenpeace, I don't think caring about protecting the environment is strictly a 'left' thing.

I care and want to protect the environment and yes, there is a definite downside to introducing foreign species into an area. It's been proven over and over again that it can go very wrong.
 
Wow we have an uncritical Rachel Carson fan!

The woman was actually a poor ecologist because her many claims in her book ( I have owned and read the book a few times) has been addressed as being incorrect and that DDT was a very effective chemical.

100 Things You Should Know About DDT

LINK

This will show how bad Carson was and the published research showing that DDT didn't do all those egg shell thinning either.


She discovered DDE, the biodegradent of DDT. You obviously have no clue.

As far as uncritical, and I know this only counts as brainwashing to you, MSc International Environmental Science and PhD(c) Interdisciplinary Ecology. What are your qualifications in the field?
 
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She discovered DDE, the biodegradent of DDT. You obviously have no clue.

As far as uncritical, and I know this only counts as brainwashing to you, MSc International Environmental Science and PhD(c) Interdisciplinary Ecology.

It is clear you never read her book which is an attack on DDT, please you are just flailing around now, suggest you slow down.

This is but one of many quotes she made:

Carson wrote “Dr. DeWitt’s now classic experiments [on quail and pheasants] have now established the fact that exposure to DDT, even when doing no observable harm to the birds, may seriously affect reproduction. Quail into whose diet DDT was introduced throughout the breeding season survived and even produced normal numbers of fertile eggs. But few of the eggs hatched.”
 
It is clear you never read her book which is an attack on DDT, please you are just flailing around now, suggest you slow down.

This is but one of many quotes she made:

Her work wasn't perfect. Nonetheless, it discovered DDE and began the Environmental Revolution in America.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about. It's a mutagen and teratogen. It mutates a fetus. It's generational poisoning the likes of which produces babies with two heads.

It's like mercury. It's unimaginably horrible. But we use it, aware danger only exists where biodegraded and persistent, in the face of malaria. We hope someday to not need to. There are many alternatives that become more effective every year and there are ideas with potential.


It will never again be used for agriculture. We stopped doing that immediately when Carson found DDE.
No, that’s not true. DDT was never established to have a casual link to birth defects
 
No, that’s not true. DDT was never established to have a casual link to birth defects

DDE was, thanks to Carson. We've been dealing with the problem of DDE vs Malaria ever since.

We banned agricultural use immediately. That will never change.
 
Her work wasn't perfect. Nonetheless, it discovered DDE and began the Environmental Revolution in America.

Sigh, DDE was NEVER used commercially.

There is no evidence she discovered DDE either.

If you bothered to read her error filled book, you would learn she NEVER mentioned DDE in it.

Meanwhile her many claims have been shown to be either completely false or overblown.

Try research instead of quick unsubstantiated, unsupported replies.
 
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