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Greenland’s Melting Ice Nears a ‘Tipping Point,’

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Lord of Planar said:
This is the worse I have ever seen of glacier ice.
Click to expand...

I LOL’ed.

I would imagine the multiple Greenland glacier trips you have taken to research this issue has given you a lot of experience here.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Threegoofs said:
I LOL’ed.

I would imagine the multiple Greenland glacier trips you have taken to research this issue has given you a lot of experience here.
Click to expand...

Me too. If only he knew how to do a literature search to find all the studies done on soot/aerosols and their impact on ice albedo....
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Surface Detail said:
It doesn't seem remotely implausible to me that the amount of water and ice flowing out through the entire coastline of Greenland is roughly equal to 1.5 Mississippis.
Click to expand...

We are told how much Greenland contributes to sea level rise. Let me Google that:
0.14–0.28 mm/year for the period 1993–2003

Area of the world's oceans 361,132,000 km² Source
Flow rate of the Mississippi 16,792 m³/sec Source

Comes to 0.25 - 0.5 Mississippis to get 0.14-0.28 mm/yr of sea level rise.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Lord of Planar said:
Anyone watching the video notice how dirty the ice is with aerosols from the sky? This is the worse I have ever seen of glacier ice. How dark they are must be from all the coal plants in northern Asia. The darker, the more radiant energy is absorbed. You can bet the melting is far greater due to the darkening of the ice, over any minor temperature or CO2 spectral increases.
Click to expand...

Might be more due to the bacteria in it. That bacteria uses the nutrients in the soot.....
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
We are told how much Greenland contributes to sea level rise. Let me Google that:
0.14–0.28 mm/year for the period 1993–2003

Area of the world's oceans 361,132,000 km² Source
Flow rate of the Mississippi 16,792 m³/sec Source

Comes to 0.25 - 0.5 Mississippis to get 0.14-0.28 mm/yr of sea level rise.
Click to expand...

Yep, that is half the flow rate of the Mississippi for a whole year.

Plus the one and a half Mississippi's to match the incoming snowfall.

All of which has to happen during the 2 month (if you are lucky) summer.

So 12 times the flow rate of the Mississippi for 2 months. (lowest estimates of snowfall used)
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Tim the plumber said:
Might be more due to the bacteria in it. That bacteria uses the nutrients in the soot.....
Click to expand...

Yes, possible, but bacteria usually has color.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Tim the plumber said:
Yep, that is half the flow rate of the Mississippi for a whole year.

Plus the one and a half Mississippi's to match the incoming snowfall.

All of which has to happen during the 2 month (if you are lucky) summer.

So 12 times the flow rate of the Mississippi for 2 months. (lowest estimates of snowfall used)
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing out my error - forgetting that the melt season isn't the
whole year - DUH! And as that map from NASA points out, a large percentage
of the ice cap has no melt season at all.

Besides that, after watching this You Tube:

"Rivers of melt water on Greenland’s
ice sheet contribute to rising sea levels"
​

that implies that the entire ice cap is like a Swiss cheese through which melt
water flows to the global ocean, I suspect that those blue water streams and
moulins are only found where some seasonal melting occurs, and most of the
ice cap doesn't have them. So far my search hasn't said one way or the other.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Surface Detail said:
No, glaciers flow all year round. And water keeps flowing most of the time too, even if below a surface layer of ice.
Click to expand...

I see the bate and switch mode is in operation. We have been discussing
the melt water contribution to Greenland's loss of ice mass. By the way,
I'm pleased that you agree that glaciers flow all year around, however
water might possibly flow all year round, but it doesn't melt all year round.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
I see the bate and switch mode is in operation. We have been discussing
the melt water contribution to Greenland's loss of ice mass. By the way,
I'm pleased that you agree that glaciers flow all year around, however
water might possibly flow all year round, but it doesn't melt all year round.
Click to expand...

I think you mean "bait and switch", but I wasn't actually talking to you at all. If you look back through the thread, you'll see that I was discussing the total mass balance of the ice on Greenland with Tim.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Icelandic Glaciers are Expanding For the First Time in Decades. [link]
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Surface Detail said:
I think you mean "bait and switch", but I wasn't actually talking to you at all. If you look back through the thread, you'll see that I was discussing the total mass balance of the ice on Greenland with Tim.
Click to expand...

Yes, "Bait & Switch" Be that as it may, I remain pleased that you tell us that glaciers flow
all year round, because that means that temperature doesn't have much of anything to
do with it. And you've been asserting that melt water is more than half of the total mass
balance. "Greenland has switched gears" is the phrase from one of the links that have
been pasted up here:

Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface
SAN FRANCISCO — Greenland's disappearing ice shifted
gears in the past decade, switching from shrinking glaciers
to surface melting, researchers reported ...​

If I've horned in on your discussion with others, you can sue me.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
Thanks for pointing out my error - forgetting that the melt season isn't the
whole year - DUH! And as that map from NASA points out, a large percentage
of the ice cap has no melt season at all.

Besides that, after watching this You Tube:

"Rivers of melt water on Greenland’s
ice sheet contribute to rising sea levels"
​

that implies that the entire ice cap is like a Swiss cheese through which melt
water flows to the global ocean, I suspect that those blue water streams and
moulins are only found where some seasonal melting occurs, and most of the
ice cap doesn't have them. So far my search hasn't said one way or the other.
Click to expand...

Yes.

The obvious thing from the video is that it was always obvious that melt water would find a crack and get to the bottom of the ice sheet, then make it's way to the coast. As always.

But if he acknowledges that he loses his job. Currently he supervises 20 researchers, has a nice office, chooses who to give the salaried job to from amongst the pHds etc. Where else does he get money for saying the bleeding obvious is cutting edge?
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Surface Detail said:
No, glaciers flow all year round. And water keeps flowing most of the time too, even if below a surface layer of ice.
Click to expand...

Not to a significant degree. The water will have left, or the sub surface water will have returned to winter levels fairly quickly.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
Yes, "Bait & Switch" Be that as it may, I remain pleased that you tell us that glaciers flow
all year round, because that means that temperature doesn't have much of anything to
do with it. And you've been asserting that melt water is more than half of the total mass
balance. "Greenland has switched gears" is the phrase from one of the links that have
been pasted up here:

Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface
SAN FRANCISCO — Greenland's disappearing ice shifted
gears in the past decade, switching from shrinking glaciers
to surface melting, researchers reported ...​

If I've horned in on your discussion with others, you can sue me.
Click to expand...

The glaciers might flow all year but they do the shedding of calving ice burgs in summer.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Tim the plumber said:
The glaciers might flow all year but they do the shedding of calving ice burgs in summer.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, but I don't know how true it is, just like I don't
know if the streams and moulins are everywhere on the ice cap or
just around the lower altitude fringes. I know that information that
doesn't support the Climate Change narrative is suppressed.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
That makes sense, but I don't know how true it is, just like I don't
know if the streams and moulins are everywhere on the ice cap or
just around the lower altitude fringes. I know that information that
doesn't support the Climate Change narrative is suppressed.
Click to expand...

Given that the southern tip of Greenland has about 2.5m of precipitation there can be quite a lot of ice melt without making a dent into that.
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

[h=2]German News Weekly ‘Der Spiegel’ Caught Making Up Another Story, Claimed Bering Strait “Almost Ice Free”[/h]By P Gosselin on 24. March 2019
Schneefan at German skeptic site wobleibtdieerderwaermung herewrites how renowned German news weekly DER SPIEGEL appears to have made up another story, this time involving a nonsensical climate alarm.
The embattled SPIEGEL this time selected a small area at the edge of the Arctic(Bering Sea/Bering Strait), which is usually not covered by more than half the ice anyway, and “drew completely absurd and inaccurate conclusions from it”.
Faked story about rural America
We will recall how not long ago SPIEGEL sent out award-winning journalist Claas Relotius to do a story about rural America, who in turn made up everything so that it would fit a grotesque caricature of conservative America that snobby euro elites harbor.
Latest: fake story about disappeared sea ice
Now it appears SPIEGEL has once ignored the real facts about the Arctic and instead made up a story to fit the alarmist global warming narrative. SPIEGEL wrote:
The Bering Strait is a narrow strait that separates Russia from Alaska. Normally it is covered with ice in spring – not so this spring, as images from the European Earth observation satellite “Sentinel 1” on 7 March show. The approximately 80 kilometres connecting the Pacific and Arctic Oceans are almost ice-free…
Indeed the spread of sea ice has reached a new record low this March, according to ESA.”
​
Reality: Bering Strait “completely covered with sea ice”. . . .
 
Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:
That makes sense, but I don't know how true it is, just like I don't
know if the streams and moulins are everywhere on the ice cap or
just around the lower altitude fringes. I know that information that
doesn't support the Climate Change narrative is suppressed.
Click to expand...

The Arctic regions have been especially hard-hit by Global Warming. The original article of this thread explains the incredible amount of ice loss. This graphic aptly demonstrates the issue.

World_Temp_Map.jpg
 
Jack Hays said:
[h=3]The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels: Alex Epstein: 9781591847441 ...[/h]
[url]https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Case-Fossil-Fuels/dp/1591847443
[/URL]



The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels [Alex Epstein] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Could everything we know about fossil fuels be wrong?
Click to expand...

I read the summary of the books points from the link. So fossil fuels have made the world better. Duh. When it combined with other factors, the burning of coal, very useful to humans, killed thousands in London. So the UK passed legislation to improve things. They did. Ditto mileage standards and control on emissions improved air quality in LA. But there is no moral case for fossil fuels any more than there is one for solar power. Our decisions in that regard -- one way or the other -- are to make things better for ourselves and the planet, so we study things and balance the great convenience to travel around in cars with the need to breathe and the need for Florida to remain above water. One could argue that growing tobacco or marijuana is morally good due to the pleasure smoking creates. But we take into account the harm tobacco does to health and restrict its use, and will have to reckon with from what I hear are the huge amounts of water marijuana takes to grow, and the psychological dependence it creates in some users.

Mr. Epstein seems rather Pollyanna-ish about fossil fuels. They are not the devil, but also not manna from heaven.
 
Nickyjo said:
I read the summary of the books points from the link. So fossil fuels have made the world better. Duh. When it combined with other factors, the burning of coal, very useful to humans, killed thousands in London. So the UK passed legislation to improve things. They did. Ditto mileage standards and control on emissions improved air quality in LA. But there is no moral case for fossil fuels any more than there is one for solar power. Our decisions in that regard -- one way or the other -- are to make things better for ourselves and the planet, so we study things and balance the great convenience to travel around in cars with the need to breathe and the need for Florida to remain above water. One could argue that growing tobacco or marijuana is morally good due to the pleasure smoking creates. But we take into account the harm tobacco does to health and restrict its use, and will have to reckon with from what I hear are the huge amounts of water marijuana takes to grow, and the psychological dependence it creates in some users.

Mr. Epstein seems rather Pollyanna-ish about fossil fuels. They are not the devil, but also not manna from heaven.
Click to expand...

Manna from heaven can make you fat. It is still Manna from heaven.
 
Nickyjo said:
I read the summary of the books points from the link. So fossil fuels have made the world better. Duh. When it combined with other factors, the burning of coal, very useful to humans, killed thousands in London. So the UK passed legislation to improve things. They did. Ditto mileage standards and control on emissions improved air quality in LA. But there is no moral case for fossil fuels any more than there is one for solar power. Our decisions in that regard -- one way or the other -- are to make things better for ourselves and the planet, so we study things and balance the great convenience to travel around in cars with the need to breathe and the need for Florida to remain above water. One could argue that growing tobacco or marijuana is morally good due to the pleasure smoking creates. But we take into account the harm tobacco does to health and restrict its use, and will have to reckon with from what I hear are the huge amounts of water marijuana takes to grow, and the psychological dependence it creates in some users.

Mr. Epstein seems rather Pollyanna-ish about fossil fuels. They are not the devil, but also not manna from heaven.
Click to expand...

Well said, and excellent points. Your emphasis for balance in a society with complex needs and complex problems is articulated very clearly.
 
Nickyjo said:
I read the summary of the books points from the link. So fossil fuels have made the world better. Duh. When it combined with other factors, the burning of coal, very useful to humans, killed thousands in London. So the UK passed legislation to improve things. They did. Ditto mileage standards and control on emissions improved air quality in LA. But there is no moral case for fossil fuels any more than there is one for solar power. Our decisions in that regard -- one way or the other -- are to make things better for ourselves and the planet, so we study things and balance the great convenience to travel around in cars with the need to breathe and the need for Florida to remain above water. One could argue that growing tobacco or marijuana is morally good due to the pleasure smoking creates. But we take into account the harm tobacco does to health and restrict its use, and will have to reckon with from what I hear are the huge amounts of water marijuana takes to grow, and the psychological dependence it creates in some users.

Mr. Epstein seems rather Pollyanna-ish about fossil fuels. They are not the devil, but also not manna from heaven.
Click to expand...

Fossil fuels have driven the greatest advance in living standards in history.
 
Nickyjo said:
I read the summary of the books points from the link. So fossil fuels have made the world better. Duh. When it combined with other factors, the burning of coal, very useful to humans, killed thousands in London. So the UK passed legislation to improve things. They did. Ditto mileage standards and control on emissions improved air quality in LA. But there is no moral case for fossil fuels any more than there is one for solar power. Our decisions in that regard -- one way or the other -- are to make things better for ourselves and the planet, so we study things and balance the great convenience to travel around in cars with the need to breathe and the need for Florida to remain above water. One could argue that growing tobacco or marijuana is morally good due to the pleasure smoking creates. But we take into account the harm tobacco does to health and restrict its use, and will have to reckon with from what I hear are the huge amounts of water marijuana takes to grow, and the psychological dependence it creates in some users.

Mr. Epstein seems rather Pollyanna-ish about fossil fuels. They are not the devil, but also not manna from heaven.
Click to expand...
To do this kind of balanced evaluation, we would need to understand the actual risks, not the hypothetical ones.
Comparing the convenience of cars to Florida to remaining above water, is a false risk cause analysis.
The Sea levels have been steadily increasing since long before CO2 emissions started to rise.
Our society has benefited enormously from hydrocarbon based fuels, the only real problem is we do not have
enough of them to allow everyone alive to live a first world lifestyle for very long.
We ether have to make our own hydrocarbon fuels, or find some other way to carry around energy in an equally dense package.
 
Jack Hays said:
Fossil fuels have driven the greatest advance in living standards in history.
Click to expand...

And who is quarreling with that? The point is that unregulated fossil fuels are also poison. Would you not have regulated just a bit after thousands died in London?
 
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