Neoliberalism has conned us into fighting climate change as individuals

Into the Night · Oct 18, 2018

Renae said:
Points out sheeple are stupid. I have LED lights in my home, not to save the environment, but because it made sense economically to make that change. We ALMOST bought a Prius, not to save the earth but because we liked the vehicle.

And there it is. Right there. These products succeed not because anyone forced people to buy them, but because they are purchased voluntarily.

Into the Night · Oct 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
Why would it harm your retirement account? Can you elaborate?

Socialism is destructive to the economy. It can only exist by stealing wealth. You are advocating socialism in the form of fascism.

Northern Light · Oct 18, 2018

Into the Night said:
No, but there IS an attempt to grab power.

Power will grabbed no matter what the system is, but if the world's ecology collapses then human systems will go with it.

Into the Night said:
It is the Church of Global Warming (and you) that denies science and mathematics. It denies the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and denies statistical mathematics.

What are you blathering on about? Do you deny that humanity is destroying the planet in innumerable ways or are you just going to hone in on anti-AGW "science" as the reason why humans can do no wrong?

Like I said, even if we put aside the issue of emissions, it's patently true that consumer capitalism has trashed the planet. The UN speaks directly to this. The world is undergoing a mass extinction, deforestation, desertification, ocean acidification, plastic buildup, sulfur buildup, etc etc... the list goes on. All because of humans.

I don't really care about the pro/against AGW arguments anymore. It's a moot point. We are pillaging the planet on a scale that the Earth cannot compensate for, all in the name of short term gain. It has to stop.

Into the Night said:
Inversion fallacy. The Church of Global Warming wants to create oligarchies to manage 'global warming', a term they can't even define. There is nothing evil about companies, big or small. They produce products and services the market desires.

Killing customers is bad for business. No company kills its customers and stays in business.

Vague.This is a void argument. Meaningless.

Capitalism doesn't destroy anything. It is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.

Does not destroy the Earth.

Does not destroy the Earth. In the United States, we actually have more trees than ever before, thanks to companies like Weyerhauser. and Georgia-Pacific. They are farmers. They plant trees because they harvest them later for various products. That doesn't include the smaller private farmers.

Soot does not destroy the Earth. It is a waste of fuel, but that is all. In the United States, soot is no longer a problem in cars, coal plants, oil fired plants, or natural gas plants. Socialist countries like China are putting out soot because there is no incentive to improve it.

Do not destroy the Earth.

Void argument again. The 'perpetrators' are all the same because YOU specifically chose oil products to denigrate (with the exception of the wood products industry).

All of these mouth foaming arguments don't even address anything I said. They are effectively non-sequiturs based on some polaric you've created (socialism vs. capitalism) that I wasn't speaking to. I said we need a resource based economy that factors environmental costs into input costs, and that consumer capitalism doesn't do that. All that it cares about is money, which isn't real, because most currency is fiat now and not equivalent to anything. Even the gold standard is being ditched. So really all money means is purchasing power, but that won't do us any good when the world's ecology collapses and we have no bounty to develop an economy from.

I didn't say what a resource-based system would look like. You're the one putting words in my mouth by fabricating a socialist conspiracy where there isn't one. Money needs to be tied to real resources and their limitations. The growth model and consumer model have trashed the planet in less than 100 years. It's not sustainable. If you think that's untrue then you're in la la land.

Into the Night said:
He didn't. He is using your own words against you.

That conversation doesn't involve you, so mind your own business.

Into the Night said:
Socialism is destructive to the economy. It can only exist by stealing wealth. You are advocating socialism in the form of fascism.

You're the only person in this thread talking about socialism.

Into the Night · Oct 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
but if the world's ecology collapses then human systems will go with it.

Nothing is collapsing.

Northern Light · Oct 19, 2018

Into the Night said:
Nothing is collapsing.

The ecological systems that sustain humanity are degenerating to the point that they soon will not be able to recover, all due to overharvesting or human waste overwhelm, all directly because of consumer capitalism and the growth model of economy.

That's putting aside any potential empathy that people like me also have for the rest of life on this planet. If you just look at what humans need, we are basically ****ting where we eat at this point. Capitalism in its current form must end. As long as input costs do not include environmental costs, our economy will keep "growing" until we kill ourselves off. Fact, not fiction.

The fiduciary responsibility of economy must change. Profit is meaningless if we have no natural legacy to leave for future generations. Short term, quarterly systems thinking can't go on any longer. It was invented by the current oligarchs for massive short term gain and wealth accumulation. They played the game well. Now it's over and we need to move on with reality.

Into the Night · Oct 20, 2018

Northern Light said:
The ecological systems that sustain humanity are degenerating to the point that they soon will not be able to recover, all due to overharvesting or human waste overwhelm, all directly because of consumer capitalism and the growth model of economy.

Ingrates like you just don't appreciate how much cleaner people like me have made the United States. It is because of people me (and a lot of them) that build the more efficient cars, reduce the use of costly chemicals, grow more and better food, build quieter and more efficient aircraft, build cleaner and more efficient sewage treatment plants, etc.

Northern Light said:
That's putting aside any potential empathy that people like me also have for the rest of life on this planet.

You don't care about them. They are just pawns to you.

Northern Light said:
If you just look at what humans need, we are basically ****ting where we eat at this point.

No, we aren't. I have personally built systems that produce potable water as effluent from sewage plants.

Northern Light said:
Capitalism in its current form must end.

Capitalism has no 'form'. It simply is. It is capitalism that built all these systems.

Northern Light said:
As long as input costs do not include environmental costs, our economy will keep "growing" until we kill ourselves off. Fact, not fiction.

Religion, actually. It is obvious you are a devout worshiper of the Church of Green. You have no clue.

Northern Light said:
The fiduciary responsibility of economy must change.

You don't get to be dictator.

Northern Light said:
Profit is meaningless if we have no natural legacy to leave for future generations.

They will be happier, healthier, and better fed than our generation.

Northern Light said:
Short term, quarterly systems thinking can't go on any longer.

Guess you would rather not plan anything, eh?

Northern Light said:
It was invented by the current oligarchs

There are no oligarchies in capitalism.

Northern Light said:
for massive short term gain and wealth accumulation.

There is nothing evil about profit.

Northern Light said:
They played the game well. Now it's over and we need to move on with reality.

Capitalism IS reality. It is the only system that creates wealth. It is the most environmentally friendly as well. Compare the United States to the socialist nations like China, which burn coal so poorly the soot hangs in the air for weeks at a time.

Northern Light · Oct 21, 2018

Into the Night said:
Ingrates like you just don't appreciate how much cleaner people like me have made the United States. It is because of people me (and a lot of them) that build the more efficient cars, reduce the use of costly chemicals, grow more and better food, build quieter and more efficient aircraft, build cleaner and more efficient sewage treatment plants, etc.

I don't know why you're calling me an ingrate when I work regularly with green initiatives. I think it's wonderful and inventive that you are working to create solutions on an individual level -- you have my respect for that; but what the OP speaks to is that individual changes are not going to change the cumulative damage that's occurring. Most of the world's pollution is being generated by a minority of companies that are not only refusing to shift their fiduciary responsibility, they are actively spending time, money and energy in spreading disinformation to try and manipulate the public into maintaining old models.

Into the Night said:
You don't care about them. They are just pawns to you.

Other life on this planet is my pawn? I don't understand this statement.

Into the Night said:
No, we aren't. I have personally built systems that produce potable water as effluent from sewage plants.

That's great... are your systems being adopted on a scale that can significantly impact the ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale?

All of the solutions we need have already been invented, some of them 100 years ago (like Tesla's free energy devices), but without support from the ruling class, they won't come to light. And they certainly can't become fruitful in an economic environment where oligarchs are actively trying to suppress innovation for their personal gain.

Into the Night said:
Capitalism has no 'form'. It simply is. It is capitalism that built all these systems.

Capitalism has a very clear form. It is well defined. Its networks, structures, and M.O. have all been carefully studied.

Yes, capitalism built the non-sustainable systems I am referring to.

Into the Night said:
Religion, actually. It is obvious you are a devout worshiper of the Church of Green. You have no clue.

Your ad homs are irrelevant.

Into the Night said:
You don't get to be dictator.

Not trying to be. I'm just (accurately) opinionated.

Into the Night said:
They will be happier, healthier, and better fed than our generation.

Not according to even the most optimistic projections. There are global food shortages on a yearly basis now. The Green Revolution is maxing out as the growth model reaches the boundaries of what this planet can support.

Into the Night said:
Guess you would rather not plan anything, eh?

As I said previously... an economic system that factors environmental costs into input costs will satisfy short term profits will preserving long term integrity. The current model does not do that. The earth is viewed as expendable, except through government regulation and taxation, both of which do not work.

Into the Night said:
There are no oligarchies in capitalism.

Yes there are. In global capitalism there are major players (about 50-100) who, along with certain banking institutions, have amassed most of the world's wealth or have ability to directly or indirectly control the economy. Corporations are "people" now and they are the oligarchs, along with the wealthiest families.

Into the Night said:
There is nothing evil about profit.

There is when it's blind and destructive to all life.

Northern Light · Oct 21, 2018

Into the Night said:
Compare the United States to the socialist nations like China, which burn coal so poorly the soot hangs in the air for weeks at a time.

China went from an agrarian monarchy to an industrialized capitalist nation in less than 40 years. Of course it's polluted. However, China has more green energy projects than the next leading 5 nations combined. Because business does not control their government, they plan their society according to longevity. The jury's still out right now about whether or not their environment can be saved.

Capitalism is not the only system that generates wealth, that's a completely false statement. Once again, I'll repeat this for the visually impaired: I'm not against capitalism, I'm against consumer capitalism and any economic system that does not factor in environmental costs. I think we need to convert to a resource based economy.

For the record, I support an economy that is part capitalist and part socialist, which the United States currently is, as well as the leading G8 nations. However, no nation currently has an economic model that factors in environmental resources, and that is going to bite humanity in the ass big time in less than 40 years.

I want future generations to have the ability to visit old growth nature and form connections with it. I want people to experience the natural legacy of this planet, which took many millions of years to form. I also want there to be viable natural resources available for humans to live on for many generations to come. The current global capitalist model does not support that. It scores the earth as it scoops up enormous resources, permanently extinguishing species and renewability in the process. It continues to be an unpunished crime against humanity and life itself. It's nothing short of psychopathic and myopic.

Into the Night · Oct 21, 2018

Northern Light said:
I don't know why you're calling me an ingrate when I work regularly with green initiatives.

Because you are believing all the scripture the Church of Green is giving you. It's false. You bellyache about how the world is going to hell and do NOTHING about it (except bellyache). The world isn't even going to hell.

Northern Light said:
I think it's wonderful and inventive that you are working to create solutions on an individual level -- you have my respect for that; but what the OP speaks to is that individual changes are not going to change the cumulative damage that's occurring.

It's not occurring.

Northern Light said:
Most of the world's pollution is being generated by a minority of companies that are not only refusing to shift their fiduciary responsibility, they are actively spending time, money and energy in spreading disinformation to try and manipulate the public into maintaining old models.

You are just trying to justify destroying the 'evil' corporation. I am a corporation. My business is incorporated.

Northern Light said:
Other life on this planet is my pawn? I don't understand this statement.

It means what it says.

Northern Light said:
That's great... are your systems being adopted on a scale that can significantly impact the ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale?

There is no ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale.

Northern Light said:
All of the solutions we need have already been invented, some of them 100 years ago (like Tesla's free energy devices),

There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.

Northern Light said:
but without support from the ruling class,

There is no ruling class. Any corporation must make a profit to survive. If it mistreats its customers, it won't be around for long. A corporation is profitable because people WANT to buy their products.

Northern Light said:
they won't come to light.

Because of physics, not because of corporations.

Northern Light said:
And they certainly can't become fruitful in an economic environment where oligarchs are actively trying to suppress innovation for their personal gain.

There are no oligarches in capitalism.

Northern Light said:
Capitalism has a very clear form. It is well defined. Its networks, structures, and M.O. have all been carefully studied.

There are no networks, structures, or M.O. in capitalism.

Northern Light said:
Yes, capitalism built the non-sustainable systems I am referring to.

Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth. Capitalism is self-sustaining.

Northern Light said:
Your ad homs are irrelevant.

Relevant. You must bellyache about some total devastation that doesn't even exist.

Northern Light said:
Not trying to be. I'm just (accurately) opinionated.

You are not accurate at all.

Northern Light said:
Not according to even the most optimistic projections. There are global food shortages on a yearly basis now.

Food shortages have been with the world since there has been food. We are actually better at feeding the world than ever before now.

Northern Light said:
The Green Revolution is maxing out as the growth model reaches the boundaries of what this planet can support.

You are not a dictator. The Church of Green is not an oligarchy. You don't get to decide what this planet can support.

Northern Light said:
As I said previously... an economic system that factors environmental costs into input costs will satisfy short term profits will preserving long term integrity. The current model does not do that. The earth is viewed as expendable, except through government regulation and taxation, both of which do not work.

Capitalism produced cleaner cars, cleaner powerplants, cleaner aircraft, more efficient and safer pesticides, a greater amount of food and water, better transportation systems to get it where it needs to go, and the very communications systems that you are using right now to whine about how bad capitalism is.

Northern Light said:
Yes there are. In global capitalism there are major players (about 50-100) who, along with certain banking institutions, have amassed most of the world's wealth or have ability to directly or indirectly control the economy.

No corporation has the ability to control the economy.

Northern Light said:
Corporations are "people" now and they are the oligarchs, along with the wealthiest families.

All corporations are made up people. They are not oligarchs. Wealth doesn't mean 'evil'.

Into the Night · Oct 21, 2018

Northern Light said:
China went from an agrarian monarchy to an industrialized capitalist nation in less than 40 years.

China is not a capitalist nation. It is an oligarchy.

Northern Light said:
Of course it's polluted.

Because the oligarchy has no idea how to run a business or manage their resources.

Northern Light said:
However, China has more green energy projects than the next leading 5 nations combined.

Nope. They HAVE decided to use a more modern method of building their coal plants (which don't pollute as much), but that's about it.

Northern Light said:
Because business does not control their government, they plan their society according to longevity.

Go study the history of China. It is almost continuous violent revolution after violent revolution. These last few decades are an anomaly in China's history. They are in danger of returning to their violent history once again.

Northern Light said:
The jury's still out right now about whether or not their environment can be saved.

They are not trying to save it.

Northern Light said:
Capitalism is not the only system that generates wealth,

Yes it is.

Northern Light said:
Once again, I'll repeat this for the visually impaired: I'm not against capitalism,

Yes you are.

Northern Light said:
I'm against consumer capitalism

No such thing.

Northern Light said:
and any economic system that does not factor in environmental costs.

Capitalism considers all costs and all forms of opportunity.

Northern Light said:
I think we need to convert to a resource based economy.

We already are.

Northern Light said:
For the record, I support an economy that is part capitalist and part socialist,

Not possible.

Northern Light said:
which the United States currently is, as well as the leading G8 nations.

Any socialist program fails miserably when capitalist systems are available. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.

Northern Light said:
However, no nation currently has an economic model that factors in environmental resources,

Capitalism does exactly this.

Northern Light said:
and that is going to bite humanity in the ass big time in less than 40 years.

Ah...the usual doom and gloom prediction from the Church of Green.

Northern Light said:
I want future generations to have the ability to visit old growth nature and form connections with it.

They already can. Did you know that an old growth forest is a dead and dying forest?

Northern Light said:
I want people to experience the natural legacy of this planet, which took many millions of years to form.

They already can.

Northern Light said:
I also want there to be viable natural resources available for humans to live on for many generations to come.

There already are.

Northern Light said:
The current global capitalist model does not support that.

Yes it does.

Northern Light said:
It scores the earth as it scoops up enormous resources,

I don't think you understand just how small a pit mine is.

Northern Light said:
permanently extinguishing species

No pit mine has ever caused extinction. Animals go extinct from time to time. This is normal. New species are being discovered also. This is also normal.

Want to know what saved the whales? It was Big Oil.

Northern Light said:
and renewability in the process.

Oil and natural gas ARE renewable. So is food, water, air, etc.

Northern Light said:
It continues to be an unpunished crime against humanity and life itself. It's nothing short of psychopathic and myopic.

Inversion fallacy.

Northern Light · Oct 21, 2018

Into the Night said:
Because you are believing all the scripture the Church of Green is giving you. It's false. You bellyache about how the world is going to hell and do NOTHING about it (except bellyache). The world isn't even going to hell.

What scripture? You mean, the accords that everyone in the world agreed to, except the United States that just backed out of them?

You don't know me IRL... you don't know what action I'm taking. Besides which, the action of individuals is not going to amount to much when 70% of the world's emissions is coming from top industry. This is something you haven't addressed in your mudslinging .

Into the Night said:
You are just trying to justify destroying the 'evil' corporation.

Untrue. I said that the fiduciary responsibility of corporate economy must be shifted. I didn't say it should be destroyed. Again you twist my words into lies, which makes me question if there's any point in talking to you further.

Into the Night said:
There is no ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale.

We're in the anthropocene. What you just said is either total denial, wilful ignorance, or outright lying.

Into the Night said:
There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.

Can you please quote where I said anything about perpetual motion?

Into the Night said:
There is no ruling class. Any corporation must make a profit to survive. If it mistreats its customers, it won't be around for long. A corporation is profitable because people WANT to buy their products.

Or they've cornered the market with laws and political influence to push their products onto the market.

Into the Night said:
There are no oligarches in capitalism.

Political science disagrees with you.

Into the Night said:
There are no networks, structures, or M.O. in capitalism.

There is when the barons of industry directly influence and control government.

Into the Night said:
Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth. Capitalism is self-sustaining.

Debating with you is pointless because you keep debunking arguments no one is making. NOBODY is talking about capitalism vs. socialism.

Into the Night said:
Relevant. You must bellyache about some total devastation that doesn't even exist.

You are not accurate at all.

You're just a liar, plain and simple.

Into the Night said:
Food shortages have been with the world since there has been food. We are actually better at feeding the world than ever before now.

Not on the levels they are currently happening, or at the levels of disparity.

Into the Night said:
You are not a dictator. The Church of Green is not an oligarchy. You don't get to decide what this planet can support.

Stop calling me a dictator. If you can't debate civilly, then this discussion is over.

Into the Night said:
Capitalism produced cleaner cars, cleaner powerplants, cleaner aircraft, more efficient and safer pesticides, a greater amount of food and water, better transportation systems to get it where it needs to go, and the very communications systems that you are using right now to whine about how bad capitalism is.

You only read what you want to read. For the last time: we need a resource based economy that factors environmental costs into input costs. Whether that's capitalism, socialism, moonbat-ism, I don't care what you call it or what it looks like as long as input costs are realistic.

Into the Night said:
No corporation has the ability to control the economy.

If they control the government and they capture a market through laws and politics, then they certainly can. A corporation that owns the wealth of nations can control whatever they want.

Into the Night said:
All corporations are made up people. They are not oligarchs. Wealth doesn't mean 'evil'.

Nobody said wealth is evil.

Into the Night said:
China is not a capitalist nation. It is an oligarchy.

China is more capitalist than the United States. They have fewer regulations on profiteering. You'd know that if you actually knew what you're talking about, but since you can't even define what capitalism is, there's no point in telling you that.

Into the Night said:
Because the oligarchy has no idea how to run a business or manage their resources.

Because they industrialized with 1.4 billion people. God, you are ignorant, and prideful about it.

Northern Light · Oct 21, 2018

Into the Night said:
Nope. They HAVE decided to use a more modern method of building their coal plants (which don't pollute as much), but that's about it.

They have the biggest hydroelectric, wind and solar projects in the world right now.

Into the Night said:
Go study the history of China. It is almost continuous violent revolution after violent revolution. These last few decades are an anomaly in China's history. They are in danger of returning to their violent history once again.

I lived in China and part of my masters degree thesis was on eco-regeneration using East Asia as a model. I know way more about this subject than you do. You know one or two facts but think you're an expert.

Into the Night said:
They are not trying to save it.

They are, because if they don't the People will replace their government with a different one.

Into the Night said:
Capitalism considers all costs and all forms of opportunity.

Untrue. Environmental resource costs are not a factor in input costs. The environment has no inherent value. Only environmental regulations determine what they CAN'T do, but it doesn't determine the value of resources and their replaceability.

Into the Night said:
Any socialist program fails miserably when capitalist systems are available. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.

That's black/white thinking. The U.S. is part socialist, sorry to shatter your world by telling you that.

Into the Night said:
Ah...the usual doom and gloom prediction from the Church of Green.

You're a troll and not a very effective one :shrug:

Lumping me in with some imaginary cabal doesn't change your patently obvious wilful ignorance and superior attitude.

Into the Night said:
They already can. Did you know that an old growth forest is a dead and dying forest?

That's the most preposterous thing you've said yet.

It's already dead so let's just harvest it all, right?

Into the Night said:
No pit mine has ever caused extinction. Animals go extinct from time to time. This is normal. New species are being discovered also. This is also normal.

Thousands of species are going extinct each year. By 2030 it will be in the millions. Welcome to the anthropocene.

Into the Night said:
Want to know what saved the whales? It was Big Oil.

Oil and natural gas ARE renewable. So is food, water, air, etc.

Fossil fuels are not renewable. Well, I guess they are if you're ready to wait a few million years for carbon to sequester in the ground.

You're delusional.

Into the Night said:
Inversion fallacy.

You're so far behind you think you're ahead. You're on the wrong side of history. The world is moving on without you.

No point in discussing this with you further. You're here to troll like most people who have an axe to grind against environmentalists. It's just pro-industry non-sense, mostly fuelled by the corporate elite in the United States. Nobody is buying it anymore. Your debate strategy is all focused on misattribution, misdirection, denial, and outright lying. It's unfortunate that people like you even have a voice in the polity. Future generations will look back at your example and shake their heads.

Ignorance is strength. Freedom is slavery. War is peace. Upside down is right side up.

Have a nice day.

Into the Night · Oct 22, 2018

Northern Light said:
What scripture?

The scripture of the Church of Green.

Northern Light said:
You don't know me IRL... you don't know what action I'm taking.

Then tell me what you are doing besides bellyaching.

Northern Light said:
Besides which, the action of individuals is not going to amount to much when 70% of the world's emissions is coming from top industry.

Void argument. What 'emissions'?

Northern Light said:
This is something you haven't addressed in your mudslinging .

Inversion fallacy.

Northern Light said:
Untrue. I said that the fiduciary responsibility of corporate economy must be shifted. I didn't say it should be destroyed. Again you twist my words into lies, which makes me question if there's any point in talking to you further.

Paradox noted.

Northern Light said:
We're in the anthropocene. What you just said is either total denial, wilful ignorance, or outright lying.

You need to get your head out of your scripture and look around.

Northern Light said:
Can you please quote where I said anything about perpetual motion?

Read the post where I made the comment.

Northern Light said:
Or they've cornered the market with laws and political influence to push their products onto the market.

They can't.

Northern Light said:
Political science disagrees with you.

There is no such thing as 'political' science. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.

Northern Light said:
There is when the barons of industry directly influence and control government.

They can't.

Northern Light said:
Debating with you is pointless because you keep debunking arguments no one is making. NOBODY is talking about capitalism vs. socialism.

You are.

Northern Light said:
Stop calling me a dictator. If you can't debate civilly, then this discussion is over.

I'm not calling you a dictator. You are not a dictator. I already said this. You are trying to be a dictator. You are not a dictator.

Northern Light said:
You only read what you want to read. For the last time: we need a resource based economy that factors environmental costs into input costs. Whether that's capitalism, socialism, moonbat-ism, I don't care what you call it or what it looks like as long as input costs are realistic.

Void argument.

Northern Light said:
If they control the government and they capture a market through laws and politics, then they certainly can. A corporation that owns the wealth of nations can control whatever they want.

They can't.

Northern Light said:
Nobody said wealth is evil.

You did.

Northern Light said:
China is more capitalist than the United States.

Obviously you have no idea what capitalism is.

Northern Light said:
They have fewer regulations on profiteering.

Not a feature of capitalism.

Northern Light said:
You'd know that if you actually knew what you're talking about, but since you can't even define what capitalism is, there's no point in telling you that.

Inversion fallacy.

Northern Light said:
Because they industrialized with 1.4 billion people. God, you are ignorant, and prideful about it.

Non-sequitur fallacy.

Northern Light · Oct 22, 2018

Into the Night said:
The scripture of the Church of Green.

Then tell me what you are doing besides bellyaching.

Void argument. What 'emissions'?

Inversion fallacy.

Paradox noted.

You need to get your head out of your scripture and look around.

Read the post where I made the comment.

They can't.

There is no such thing as 'political' science. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.

They can't.

You are.

I'm not calling you a dictator. You are not a dictator. I already said this. You are trying to be a dictator. You are not a dictator.

Void argument.

They can't.

You did.

Obviously you have no idea what capitalism is.

Not a feature of capitalism.

Inversion fallacy.

Non-sequitur fallacy.

You just have to have the last word don't you? Well, have at it. Nothing you've said has any substance or contributes to real debate. Just a bunch of insults and dismissals based on refusal to consider new information.

Welcome to my ignore list. :2wave:

Into the Night · Oct 22, 2018

Northern Light said:
They have the biggest hydroelectric, wind and solar projects in the world right now.

Meh.

Northern Light said:
I lived in China and part of my masters degree thesis was on eco-regeneration using East Asia as a model. I know way more about this subject than you do.

I don't believe you.

Northern Light said:
They are, because if they don't the People will replace their government with a different one.

You mean like usual?

Northern Light said:
Untrue. Environmental resource costs are not a factor in input costs. The environment has no inherent value. Only environmental regulations determine what they CAN'T do, but it doesn't determine the value of resources and their replaceability.

Void argument.

Northern Light said:
That's black/white thinking. The U.S. is part socialist, sorry to shatter your world by telling you that.

That part is failing.

Northern Light said:
Thousands of species are going extinct each year. By 2030 it will be in the millions. Welcome to the anthropocene.

No they aren't. No, it won't be.

Northern Light said:
Fossil fuels are not renewable

Fossils don't burn. We don't use them for fuel.

Northern Light said:
Well, I guess they are if you're ready to wait a few million years for carbon to sequester in the ground.

Fossils don't burn. Who cares?

Into the Night · Oct 22, 2018

Northern Light said:
You just have to have the last word don't you? Well, have at it. Nothing you've said has any substance or contributes to real debate. Just a bunch of insults and dismissals based on refusal to consider new information.

Welcome to my ignore list. :2wave:

Seeya. Go play in your little playroom.

JMaximus · Oct 22, 2018

Northern Light said:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals

It's time to wake up to the fact that climate change denialism is being supported and funded by the major oligarchs running the global capitalist show. Once you put this into proper perspective, it's obvious why there is reluctance to change: it means having to dismantle our current capitalist paradigm.

Now, I'm not suggesting we do away with capitalism entirely, but that the consumer model and the growth model are not sustainable within a finite system. We must shift our economic way of life toward a resource economy. The world's ecology MUST be factored into input costs and those costs must be distributed wisely. The fiduciary responsibility of the economy has to be shifted away from making obscene profits (money isn't real) and toward thinking about the future of the planet, and not just thinking about what THIS generation can get.

At the very least, we need to start having this conversation. It doesn't mean you're a communist because you start pointing out that global capitalism is destroying the planet and humanity's future. It means that you are assessing flaws in a system and those flaws need addressing.

No more waste, no more excess. We either make this transition willingly or we do it while we face our own peril. The people running this show don't care because they have their bunkers and private oases away from the rest of us who are going to feel the burn in a perhaps fatal way.

It's time to make transparent the very source of our problems: the corporate oligarchs. Sure, every day people are responsible for changing their lives, but the people planning the economy and manipulating government to keep this dinosaur model in place are the ones who should be outed. They obstruct democracy, they rape and pillage, they horde resources, and they pit humans against one another in a competitive model that is leaving future generations a dismal legacy. It must end.

What are those "corporate oligarchs" doing to pollute the climate?

Northern Light · Oct 23, 2018

JMaximus said:
What are those "corporate oligarchs" doing to pollute the climate?

Influencing government to aid in wealth sequestration while using that wealth to influence economic policy; creating artificial limits to new markets and directly influencing price controls; preserving markets which pollute while creating barriers to entry to players that don't; influencing sociopolitical processes in malign ways; directly funding false research to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about proven climate science; using global financial institutions (like the IMF, World Bank) to financially enslave indebted nations while stripping their resources in unsustainable, irreparable ways.

On a manufacturing/retail/consumer level: creating products that are designed to fail or have built in limitations, resulting in inevitable disposal (planned obsolescence, poor durability); no concern for environmental input costs, real or imagined; bypassing environmental regulations through litigation, bribery, or export (foreign waste disposal); influencing markets through mass media (which they own) to cause planned recessions which enable further capital acquisition to repeat all the above behaviors...

The lists go on and on. People act like we live in a relatively free market society but things like the stock market are gamed by comprehensive algorithms and hegemonic financial entities. The entire thing is designed to perpetuate an old model that is in direct possession of oligarchs who refuse to relinquish control. In this very thread, someone stated that they believed fossil fuels are not a dwindling resource.

We essentially live in an economic model that stems from colonialism. Never ending expansion, acquisition and accumulation -- this idea that nature is here to serve us and we can take as much as we want from it at any time without consequence. The people running the show genuinely believe this is still true.

The growth model of economy can't work any longer. The science is in on the ecological devastation. It's unequivocal. People can choose not believe but they are just lying to themselves. Even an amateur foray into the earth sciences will tell any lay person what's going on. We can't simply colonize other planets because we lack the tech and the international unity of priorities. This planet is all we have and everything is at risk right now. We're supposed to be the most intelligent species yet our animal behaviors are predictable and our individualistic desires for unrealistic standards of living put the whole system in jeopardy.

Neoliberalism has conned us into fighting climate change as individuals

Into the Night

Into the Night

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Into the Night

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Into the Night

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Into the Night

Into the Night

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Into the Night

Northern Light

The Light of Truth

Into the Night

Into the Night

JMaximus

Northern Light

The Light of Truth