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Son of Climategate -- University of Arizona Emails to be Released

Holding a principled objection to witch-hunts demanding unrestricted access to paw through researchers' emails is hardly a case of 'asserting privilege.'

We all saw the numerous examples of desperate cherry-picking and out-of-context soundbytes being used in an effort to smear the University of East Anglia scientists immediately preceding the Copenhagen conference, and again preceding the Durban conference. The partial releases of the hacked data at politically-motivated times says enough on its own, even before we start looking into the twisted misperceptions created by popular soundbytes like "hide the decline," or the generally-favourable results of the numerous formal investigations conducted on the victims.

According to your OP it was shortly after that second selective release of hacked UEA emails that this 'Free Market' Environmental Law Clinic sought governmental authority to trawl through the University of Arizona researcher's emails. Quite aside from the irony of what a chilling effect this kind of forcible intervention could have on academic freedom, the fact is that the university had already provided all relevant material, by their scientists' assessment. The contentious point here is simply the witch-hunt side of the request, the vague hope of finding something which - if the UEA example is any indication - might be likewise stripped of all true meaning and whored out as a new slogan for contrarians to chant.

If memory serves the only damning thing about the UEA case (on the scientists' side that is, not the politically-driven hackers' and slogan-chanting parrots' side) is that the subsequent investigations showed there had been some actual, relevant data which Jones had refused to release to hostile critics in response to an FOI request. It can be difficult to balance the importance of academic transparency with academic freedom; for the public (however ill-intentioned some may be) to have access to pertinent information which we've paid for without stifling research under a Big Brother regime. I think that in some regards Jones failed the transparency test, and should have released the relevant data regardless of the hostile intent of those requesting it.

In this University of Arizona case, all indications are that's unlikely to have been the case. But the witch-hunters can always live in hope, I suppose.

What blithering BS. The UEA emails revealed a cesspool of bad faith and manipulated processes.
In the Arizona case there's the added factor that all those involved were public employees, and all their work-related emails were public property.
 
What blithering BS. The UEA emails revealed a cesspool of bad faith and manipulated processes.
In the Arizona case there's the added factor that all those involved were public employees, and all their work-related emails were public property.

Try accessing military or Secretary of State emails under that pretext and see how far you get :roll: Such a dogmatic, black-and-white perspective only shows the degree to which this witch-hunt can drive supporters into irrational lines of thinking. In fact an argument could be made that whereas the whole point of the government and military are to serve the public, in contrast scientific research by definition should retain its objectivity and independence from the tides of political or societal opinion and therefore government-funded research definitively should not be government-owned. That's one argument. The importance of transparency is a counter-argument. Your black-and-white dogmatism attempts to gloss over the nuances of the issue, but really only succeeds in showing the shallowness of thinking to which this crusade has driven you :(
 
Try accessing military or Secretary of State emails under that pretext and see how far you get :roll: Such a dogmatic, black-and-white perspective only shows the degree to which this witch-hunt can drive supporters into irrational lines of thinking. In fact an argument could be made that whereas the whole point of the government and military are to serve the public, in contrast scientific research by definition should retain its objectivity and independence from the tides of political or societal opinion and therefore government-funded research definitively should not be government-owned. That's one argument. The importance of transparency is a counter-argument. Your black-and-white dogmatism attempts to gloss over the nuances of the issue, but really only succeeds in showing the shallowness of thinking to which this crusade has driven you :(

There are in fact elaborate programs to make publicly available unclassified emails from both the Department of Defense and the Department of State.
The U of A work was unclassified. It should be available.
 
So you think records will be 'conveniently destroyed' and other scientists who are in the field and need the data to better inform their own research will just not notice or care?

Yes, you do.. because functionally, you think there is a giant worldwide conspiracy. You just call it librul groupthink or whatever euphemism you think sounds more reasonable.

But no doubt about it.. you think scientists are deliberately misreporting information and even hiding and destroying it.

If the records do show falsehood, then yes. They will be conveniently lost or something.
 
Relax. The time limit to effect radical change was 2012. That time has come and gone...we are already done. SO pop another cork and enjoy yourself. the wall of water has overwhelmed the coastal states, the UK and US are all but uninhabitable, the arctic is free of sea ice, The polar bears are just a sad distance memory, the Great Lakes are completely dry. We arent even here...we are typing this stuff in from our refugee camps in central America.

oh noes... We are doomed... 2012 is past...
 
Cornered and squealing.

[h=3]Climate Scientist Michael Mann Releases Emails Ahead of University ...[/h]
[url]https://www.desmogblog.com/.../michael-mann-statement-arizona-emails-released-eeli

[/URL]



12 hours ago - Within these thousands of emails, climate change deniers attempted to ... MannReleases Emails Ahead of University of Arizona Response to ...

Actually, he posted them with explanations of what he’s talking about- in hopes that deniers read them and figure out how serious the AGW problem is.

But I think he fully accepts childish partisanship will prevail, like talk about him being ‘cornered and squealing’.
 
Actually, he posted them with explanations of what he’s talking about- in hopes that deniers read them and figure out how serious the AGW problem is.

But I think he fully accepts childish partisanship will prevail, like talk about him being ‘cornered and squealing’.

Looks like equivocation to me.
 
Actually, he posted them with explanations of what he’s talking about- in hopes that deniers read them and figure out how serious the AGW problem is.

But I think he fully accepts childish partisanship will prevail, like talk about him being ‘cornered and squealing’.

He's reaping the well-earned harvest of distrust owed to a man whose career has been built on disseminating malpractice through a field of research.
 
He's reaping the well-earned harvest of distrust owed to a man whose career has been built on disseminating malpractice through a field of research.

I wonder if his openness will be reciprocated by the people initiating the lawsuit to reveal who is funding them.

Oh, right. That doesn’t matter.

Probably just some concerned citizens interested in science who are willing to fork over $1000/hr in legal fees because they love transparency in science.
 
I wonder if his openness will be reciprocated by the people initiating the lawsuit to reveal who is funding them.

Oh, right. That doesn’t matter.

Probably just some concerned citizens interested in science who are willing to fork over $1000/hr in legal fees because they love transparency in science.

He's not being "open." He fought this for years. Now he's just trying to gain a tactical PR advantage.
Private citizens acting in their private capacity enjoy privacy rights not shared by public employees acting in their public capacity. During my 34 years of service we were routinely briefed that there was "no expectation of privacy" on our system.
 
He's not being "open." He fought this for years. Now he's just trying to gain a tactical PR advantage.
Private citizens acting in their private capacity enjoy privacy rights not shared by public employees acting in their public capacity. During my 34 years of service we were routinely briefed that there was "no expectation of privacy" on our system.

So I guess you don’t care about transparency on the Koch Br...errr...anonymously funded side.

Also- academic work is not being a low level State employee. Tenure is given to academics for a reason.
 
So I guess you don’t care about transparency on the Koch Br...errr...anonymously funded side.

Also- academic work is not being a low level State employee. Tenure is given to academics for a reason.

Those rules apply from top to bottom. It has nothing to do with tenure. And FYI: I retired at a rank equivalent to Lt. Gen. ("three star") in the military service.
 


[h=1]Mann Emails Released[/h]Posted on 30 Nov 18 by PAUL MATTHEWS 1 Comment
A batch of Michael Mann’s emails have been released, following a request and legal action, see here for background. The emails are available at this link. There are 728 emails or they can be arranged in 361 threads, covering a period from 1999 to 2005. Quite a lot of them are already public knowledge thanks … Continue reading
 
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[h=1]#Climategate continues – Mann tries to get ahead of his legal problem, releases his own version of emails[/h][FONT=&quot]Press Release November 30, 2018 On January 6th, 2011, the University of Virginia was asked to disgorge the emails of Dr. Michael Mann that were associated with his work on global warming. The University refused some, but not all of that request. They did, however, give all the requested public records to Dr. Mann who also refused…
Continue reading →
[/FONT]
 
"FME Law will make all the Hughes and Overpeck emails available to the public once it completes its voluntary commitment to the court to assess them..."

Seems that after all this fuss and rhetoric about public access, and all the unsubstantiated accusations that the scholars' delays and reluctance to have every man and his dog poring over their every scrap of correspondence, the antagonists themselves are now determined to keep it under wraps until they can present it in their chosen light.

If there were any legitimacy whatsoever to the case for public access.... Well actually, there is an argument to be made for it, even though on balance I would tend to lean against such a big brother approach, so I'll rephrase that: If the antagonists and their cheer squad actually believed in their case for public access without ulterior motives, then that is what we would expect to see from them, immediately and unmediated by their choice of presentation biases.

No surprise that this is precisely what is not going to happen.
 
"FME Law will make all the Hughes and Overpeck emails available to the public once it completes its voluntary commitment to the court to assess them..."

Seems that after all this fuss and rhetoric about public access, and all the unsubstantiated accusations that the scholars' delays and reluctance to have every man and his dog poring over their every scrap of correspondence, the antagonists themselves are now determined to keep it under wraps until they can present it in their chosen light.

If there were any legitimacy whatsoever to the case for public access.... Well actually, there is an argument to be made for it, even though on balance I would tend to lean against such a big brother approach, so I'll rephrase that: If the antagonists and their cheer squad actually believed in their case for public access without ulterior motives, then that is what we would expect to see from them, immediately and unmediated by their choice of presentation biases.

No surprise that this is precisely what is not going to happen.

Keep spinning.
Public employees communicating about public business via public networks can have no expectation of privacy. Private citizens who gain access to said communications after lengthy court proceedings may do with them as they see fit.
 
Keep spinning.
Public employees communicating about public business via public networks can have no expectation of privacy.

Your black-and-white dogmatism is still showing; as I've suggested before, your posts wouldn't be imparting such a foetid reek to this whole affair if you were able to recognize and appreciate the nuances of the issue. Your country recently endured literally years of overblown rhetoric and quasi-political grandstanding over a public employee communicating about public business who failed to maintain adequate privacy and security of its contents, so your notion that it's a free-for-all is obviously and utterly bollocks.

Advocating an anti-privacy, big brother style of approach is somewhat troubling. But even if we were to suppose a presumption of scrutiny in which all publicly-funded information is available unless there is a reason for it not to be - rather than a presumption of privacy in which any specific information can made available if there is a reason to do so - there are numerous and often very good reasons for maintaining privacy. For example in contrast to areas like the military or intelligence networks, whose explicit purpose is to serve the public (though secrecy may still sometimes be necessary), it is a fundamental requirement of legitimate scientific enquiry that researchers maintain their objectivity and some degree of independence from the tides of political, societal and financial opinion. Regardless of what percentage of their work may be funded by government versus private investment and endowments to universities and academic grants, most scientists are not public employees in the same way that, say, a soldier or a spy is.

The chilling effect which the kind of regime you want is another point to consider, albeit only a probable rather than definite consequence: Every trainer and educator in the world knows that having others constantly looking over your shoulder and viciously criticizing every real or perceived mistake or misstep is a serious impediment to success, yet that apparently is what some folk want to impose on the people we've tasked with learning more about this world in which we live. Many scientists would inevitably start corresponding with each other on private networks to mitigate such intrusions... perhaps institutions will take steps to hinder such actions... which of course will have workarounds of their own, draining though the effort may be...

If you had managed to bring yourself to even acknowledge these nuances and serious concerns which have been pointed out to you before, you yourself might have some shred of legitimacy. Instead all you've got is simple dogmatism.

Private citizens who gain access to said communications after lengthy court proceedings may do with them as they see fit.

Apparently so. I was merely commenting on what their decision implies about their motivation; far from a genuine concern about public access without ulterior motives, they apparently intend to keep it under wraps until it can be presented in their chosen light.
 
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Your black-and-white dogmatism is still showing; as I've suggested before, your posts wouldn't be imparting such a foetid reek to this whole affair if you were able to recognize and appreciate the nuances of the issue. Your country recently endured literally years of overblown rhetoric and quasi-political grandstanding over a public employee communicating about public business who failed to maintain adequate privacy and security of its contents, so your notion that it's a free-for-all is obviously and utterly bollocks.

Advocating an anti-privacy, big brother style of approach is somewhat troubling. But even if we were to suppose a presumption of scrutiny in which all publicly-funded information is available unless there is a reason for it not to be - rather than a presumption of privacy in which any specific information can made available if there is a reason to do so - there are numerous and often very good reasons for maintaining privacy. For example in contrast to areas like the military or intelligence networks, whose explicit purpose is to serve the public (though secrecy may still sometimes be necessary), it is a fundamental requirement of legitimate scientific enquiry that researchers maintain their objectivity and some degree of independence from the tides of political, societal and financial opinion. Regardless of what percentage of their work may be funded by government versus private investment and endowments to universities and academic grants, most scientists are not public employees in the same way that, say, a soldier or a spy is.

The chilling effect which the kind of regime you want is another point to consider, albeit only a probable rather than definite consequence: Every trainer and educator in the world knows that having others constantly looking over your shoulder and viciously criticizing every real or perceived mistake or misstep is a serious impediment to success, yet that apparently is what some folk want to impose on the people we've tasked with learning more about this world in which we live.

If you had managed to bring yourself to even acknowledge these nuances and serious concerns which have been pointed out to you before, you yourself might have some shred of legitimacy. Instead all you've got is simple dogmatism.



Apparently so. I was merely commenting on what their decision implies about their motivation; far from a genuine concern about public access without ulterior motives, they apparently intend to keep it under wraps until it can be presented in their chosen light.

It’s actually quite sad.
 
Your black-and-white dogmatism is still showing; as I've suggested before, your posts wouldn't be imparting such a foetid reek to this whole affair if you were able to recognize and appreciate the nuances of the issue. Your country recently endured literally years of overblown rhetoric and quasi-political grandstanding over a public employee communicating about public business who failed to maintain adequate privacy and security of its contents, so your notion that it's a free-for-all is obviously and utterly bollocks.

Advocating an anti-privacy, big brother style of approach is somewhat troubling. But even if we were to suppose a presumption of scrutiny in which all publicly-funded information is available unless there is a reason for it not to be - rather than a presumption of privacy in which any specific information can made available if there is a reason to do so - there are numerous and often very good reasons for maintaining privacy. For example in contrast to areas like the military or intelligence networks, whose explicit purpose is to serve the public (though secrecy may still sometimes be necessary), it is a fundamental requirement of legitimate scientific enquiry that researchers maintain their objectivity and some degree of independence from the tides of political, societal and financial opinion. Regardless of what percentage of their work may be funded by government versus private investment and endowments to universities and academic grants, most scientists are not public employees in the same way that, say, a soldier or a spy is.

The chilling effect which the kind of regime you want is another point to consider, albeit only a probable rather than definite consequence: Every trainer and educator in the world knows that having others constantly looking over your shoulder and viciously criticizing every real or perceived mistake or misstep is a serious impediment to success, yet that apparently is what some folk want to impose on the people we've tasked with learning more about this world in which we live. Many scientists would inevitably start corresponding with each other on private networks to mitigate such intrusions... perhaps institutions will take steps to hinder such actions... which of course will have workarounds of their own, draining though the effort may be...

If you had managed to bring yourself to even acknowledge these nuances and serious concerns which have been pointed out to you before, you yourself might have some shred of legitimacy. Instead all you've got is simple dogmatism.



Apparently so. I was merely commenting on what their decision implies about their motivation; far from a genuine concern about public access without ulterior motives, they apparently intend to keep it under wraps until it can be presented in their chosen light.

I spent 34 years in the federal service. Whether on classified or unclassified systems, we were repeatedly briefed that there was "no expectation of privacy" on our federal networks. All our communications were public property. In principle the state of Arizona would be no different. There are no nuances.

And btw, the possibility of exposure of classified information was only part of the problem with Hillary Clinton's private server. Another aspect was that her use of a private server prevented the proper storage and preservation of her unclassified work communications for public access.
 
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I spent 34 years in the federal service. Whether on classified or unclassified systems, we were repeatedly briefed that there was "no expectation of privacy" on our federal networks. All our communications were public property. In principle the state of Arizona would be no different. There are no nuances.

And btw, the possibility of exposure of classified information was only part of the problem with Hillary Clinton's private server. Another aspect was that her use of a private server prevented the proper storage and preservation of her unclassified work communications for public access.

And I spent 10 years in academia for the State and never was told that there was ‘no expectation of privacy’. Ever.

It was assumed that all internal communications were internal.
 
And I spent 10 years in academia for the State and never was told that there was ‘no expectation of privacy’. Ever.

It was assumed that all internal communications were internal.

Then you were either asleep during briefing, or they didn't brief you properly.

All communications through your employers network, are the property of your employer. If your employer is a public employer, then your communications can be public.

Are you really that ignorant to think otherwise?
 
All communications through your employers network, are the property of your employer. If your employer is a public employer, then your communications can be public.

And of course likewise if a private employer chooses to publicize its internal communications - "no expectation of privacy" for any employee, ever?

I can understand the reasoning behind why that might be made to be the case, but it's a similar kind of reasoning which has some employers claiming to own even the thoughts in their employees' heads. First and foremost we are talking about people here, and the initial presumption should always be on the side of their dignity and rights as people. If a contract specifically states that your office is subject to constant audio-visual surveilance and the length and frequency of your toilet breaks are monitored, well fair enough, I guess; or when there are legitimate reasons for administrative or public scrutiny of email correspondence. But in most cases the presumption should be that people retain any rights not explicitly surrendered to their employer. Hardly a radical notion, I would have thought!

And clearly, these scientists did not explicitly surrender the security of their correspondence twenty years ago. So it seems to me they were right to divulge all the material they deemed relevant, and right to fight against the further intrusion which increasingly is looking like little more than a wild witch-hunt.
 
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