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Why Climate Models are Inaccurate -- and the Liars Who Hide the Inaccuracy

No, that's not what was claimed. Did you not read Archibald's "guest essay"? The fool claims: "All this means that the shrinkage of the Greenland Ice Sheet since the beginning of the millenium is now over." Wrong. The shrinkage continues. He thinks the graph is showing the net amount of ice gained! This is clear when he gives his ludicrous prediction for the ice mass in 2017:

clip_image006_thumb1.jpg

Latest figure I've seen was from January 2017, so an end-of-year 2017 figure may not be available.
 
I still have to wonder how they know what the forcing was in 1750?
They asked Dr Who to travel back to 1750 and gather data.


When you say there is data about the level of the feedbacks, and show this data by citing a paper
entitled "Water‐vapor climate feedback inferred from climate fluctuations, 2003–2008"
and the second paper looks like the time frame (1995 to 2002) is to short to mean much.
:roll:

And you show literally nothing to back up your views. Impressive.


When I said "The places where they record maximum and minimum temperatures, show only minor increases in maximums since the 1930's. "
why did you then attempt to show a trend since 1895?
Because I saw little justification for cherry-picking data. It's bad enough that we are using US-only data, which in and of itself has very limited utility, but I figured that's where you got your data; that's why I also checked IPCC results.

However, I must inform you that you screwed up when you constructed your chart. You only charted August. This is what it looks like with annual figures:

Max 1930-2018.jpg

Unsurprisingly, you don't have any global data, which follows the same pattern. Better luck next time.


There is a problem with saying the water is too hot for Corals, as different species live at different temperatures,
most in warm to very warm water.
There isn't a problem with saying that water is too warm for corals, because that's what is causing the bleaching and coral death.


There is evidence that the extreme low tides caused problems for the coral.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ng_extreme_low_tides_and_high_solar_radiation
That isn't what killed half of the corals in the Great Barrier Reef. Try to keep up.


there are real reasons to be skeptical of the catastrophic predictions of the IPCC.
Since we are starting to see those predictions actually impact the world, there is less reason than ever to be skeptical.

How many years of record global temperatures do you need to see?
How many years of escalating CO2 do you need?
How much larger do hurricanes need to be?
How much more precipitation do storms need to cause?
How much more damage has to be done by storm surges?
How many more heat waves do you need to see in the Arctic Circle?
How many more droughts do you need?

Or perhaps there is no amount of hard data that will satisfy some people....
 
How many years of record global temperatures do you need to see?
How many years of escalating CO2 do you need?
How much larger do hurricanes need to be?
How much more precipitation do storms need to cause?
How much more damage has to be done by storm surges?
How many more heat waves do you need to see in the Arctic Circle?
How many more droughts do you need?

Temperatures are falling.
It really doesn't matter.
Hurricanes are not becoming larger.
Storms are not creating more precipitation.
Increased storm surge damage is a result of increased coastal development.
Again, temperatures are falling.
There has been no increase in droughts.
 
Latest figure I've seen was from January 2017, so an end-of-year 2017 figure may not be available.

Well, it will certainly not have been what Archibald suggests, given his misunderstanding. He appears to have simply added the 500 Gt surface mass balance for 2017 to the ice mass for mid-2016! Someone should tell him about the existence of glaciers on Greenland, via which most of the ice loss occurs.

By the way, the figures end at January 2017 because that's when the GRACE mission ended. I do believe, though, that another ice measuring satellite has just been launched.
 
Many studies place the time lag between CO2 emissions and maximum warming at less than 70 years.
Hansen 37.5 years,
The time lag between a carbon dioxide emission and maximum warming increases with the size of the emission - IOPscience
Zickfeld, at 10 years,
Maximum warming occurs about one decade after a carbon dioxide emission - IOPscience
Ricke and Caldeira 10.1 years.
I think I can say with confidence that the feedbacks cannot tell the difference between natural and man caused warming.

An entirely unjustified assumption as far as I can tell: Vegetation-albedo feedback responds to carbon dioxide specifically. Snow-albedo feedback is particularly responsive to soot (potentially fires/volcanic, but mostly anthropogenic in recent decades), and I would guess is comparatively more responsive to uniform GHG warming than to solar irradiance changes with reduced polar incidence.

You haven't provided a citation for your claim about Hansen, and the two other articles are about what might happen if we stopped CO2 emissions now: They both investigate a CO2 pulse followed by declining forcing as that CO2 is subject to uptake by the oceans and biosphere, whereas the historical reality has been continually increasing forcing. There's a wide range of estimates out there from various papers, but for example Hansen et al 2011 suggested that
About 40 percent of the equilibrium response is obtained within five years. This quick response is due to the small effective inertia of continents, but warming over continents is limited by exchange of continental and marine air masses. Only 60 percent of the equilibrium response is achieved in a century. Nearly full response requires a millennium.​

Given the vast bulk and depth of the world's oceans, those figures seem much more likely to be true than supposing that they would reach maximum response (to continual forcing) in a mere decade! The policy implications of the two you cited - that we should reduce emissions now because it will make a difference even for this generation - are presumably valid, but their figures are not appropriate for assessment of historical forcing.

As far as an energy imbalance warming the air temperature, we see that lag every day, from noon to maximum warming is
about 2 to 3 hours, and from summer solstice to warmest day is about 40 days.

**** me, how many times on how many issues do I have to explain the same things over and over again to you? (I see that you've got your never-ending "maximum temperatures have not been climbing" lie going on in discussion with Visbek too, apparently trying to cram as many constantly-disproven claims and laughably erroneous reasoning into the thread as you can.) Diurnal and seasonal cycles are - again - cyclical, not continually increasing as the historical radiative forcing has been.

We never see the maximum warming from a midday sun. After it passes its zenith it's providing less heat, but the day continues to get warmer until mid afternoon because it hasn't fully warmed up yet. Even that varies by location of course; living in outback Australia it's hottest around 1 or 2pm (the arid environment warms and cools quicker) while living in a coastal city it's more like 3 or 4pm (the ocean acts a heat sink, slowing the warming), while visiting Vancouver during summer a few years ago it seemed to be hottest at 5 or 6pm because the days were so long. That latter example would imply that it took at least 10 hours to approach the warming expected from five hours before/after zenith, but that's a minimum value not a maximum.

When you've got thirteen days of sunlight, as on the moon, the temperature can reach 127 degrees Celsius (and for all I know might get even higher if it had even longer).



Which again is no real indication of inertia timeframes to sustained forcing. If you plot a sine wave peaking at 26 weeks and a response curve peaking four weeks later (~15% response per week), then corresponding curves in which the maximum summer forcing is sustained indefinitely, you might conclude that it would be at least 38 weeks before reaching 99% of the maximum temperature response. But that's still only based on short term information, allowing for some equalization between land and sea surface, but not long enough to allow for oceanic overturning and transport of the extra heat/energy to the depths.
 
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They asked Dr Who to travel back to 1750 and gather data.



:roll:

And you show literally nothing to back up your views. Impressive.



Because I saw little justification for cherry-picking data. It's bad enough that we are using US-only data, which in and of itself has very limited utility, but I figured that's where you got your data; that's why I also checked IPCC results.

However, I must inform you that you screwed up when you constructed your chart. You only charted August. This is what it looks like with annual figures:



Unsurprisingly, you don't have any global data, which follows the same pattern. Better luck next time.



There isn't a problem with saying that water is too warm for corals, because that's what is causing the bleaching and coral death.



That isn't what killed half of the corals in the Great Barrier Reef. Try to keep up.



Since we are starting to see those predictions actually impact the world, there is less reason than ever to be skeptical.

How many years of record global temperatures do you need to see?
How many years of escalating CO2 do you need?
How much larger do hurricanes need to be?
How much more precipitation do storms need to cause?
How much more damage has to be done by storm surges?
How many more heat waves do you need to see in the Arctic Circle?
How many more droughts do you need?

Or perhaps there is no amount of hard data that will satisfy some people....

As I suspected the 1750 level of radiative forcing is simply an assumption.

You are the one claiming that assumptions count as evidence.

I did get the wrong graph, I will post the Jan to Dec when the site comes back online.
Since we do not have access to the global maximum-minimum numbers the US will simply have to act as a proxy for the world.
plenty of papers have been published which show global T-Min growing at up to 3 times faster then T-Max,
What they do not always talk about is how the increases observed in T-Max are in the cooler months.

There is no evidence that the coral bleaching is a result of higher water temperatures.
There is evidence that extreme low tides in 2016 exposed coral tops to air for many hours a day.

The rest of your montage are a rehash of the same old alarmist verbiage.
 
An entirely unjustified assumption as far as I can tell: Vegetation-albedo feedback responds to carbon dioxide specifically. Snow-albedo feedback is particularly responsive to soot (potentially fires/volcanic, but mostly anthropogenic in recent decades), and I would guess is comparatively more responsive to uniform GHG warming than to solar irradiance changes with reduced polar incidence.

You haven't provided a citation for your claim about Hansen, and the two other articles are about what might happen if we stopped CO2 emissions now: They both investigate a CO2 pulse followed by declining forcing as that CO2 is subject to uptake by the oceans and biosphere, whereas the historical reality has been continually increasing forcing. There's a wide range of estimates out there from various papers, but for example Hansen et al 2011 suggested that
About 40 percent of the equilibrium response is obtained within five years. This quick response is due to the small effective inertia of continents, but warming over continents is limited by exchange of continental and marine air masses. Only 60 percent of the equilibrium response is achieved in a century. Nearly full response requires a millennium.​

Given the vast bulk and depth of the world's oceans, those figures seem much more likely to be true than supposing that they would reach maximum response (to continual forcing) in a mere decade! The policy implications of the two you cited - that we should reduce emissions now because it will make a difference even for this generation - are presumably valid, but their figures are not appropriate for assessment of historical forcing.



**** me, how many times on how many issues do I have to explain the same things over and over again to you? (I see that you've got your never-ending "maximum temperatures have not been climbing" lie going on in discussion with Visbek too, apparently trying to cram as many constantly-disproven claims and laughably erroneous reasoning into the thread as you can.) Diurnal and seasonal cycles are - again - cyclical, not continually increasing as the historical radiative forcing has been.

I think the Hansen 37.5 year time frame came from,
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2005/2005_Hansen_ha00110y.pdf
Evidence from Earth_s history (3–6)and climate models (7) suggests that climate
sensitivity is 0.75-T0.25-C perW/m2 ,implying that 25 to 50 years are needed for Earths
surface temperature to reach 60% of its equilibrium response (1).
And the Zickfeld paper was talking about the lag changing with larger impulse pulses of CO2.
The 100 GtC curve was quite fast, current Human emissions are about 32.5 gigatons per year.

The Maximum temperatures have not increased as fast as the minimum temperatures, and this is not addresses by
the climate models. I suspect it may well be a poor fundamental understanding of how a greenhouse gas works.
 
As I suspected the 1750 level of radiative forcing is simply an assumption.

You are the one claiming that assumptions count as evidence.
The assumptions are based on evidence, and it's all extensively documented.


I did get the wrong graph, I will post the Jan to Dec when the site comes back online.
Already done. See my post.


Since we do not have access to the global maximum-minimum numbers the US will simply have to act as a proxy for the world.
No, it really can't. The US is only 1.9% of the world's surface, and it's only in one hemisphere. And again, IPCC has numbers, which again were not pulled out of thin air.


There is no evidence that the coral bleaching is a result of higher water temperatures.
Try again, please.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/07/the-great-barrier-reef-a-catastrophe-laid-bare
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00265009
IMIS | Flanders Marine Institute
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002270100676


The rest of your montage are a rehash of the same old alarmist verbiage.
That's not an answer. What a surprise.
 
The Maximum temperatures have not increased as fast as the minimum temperatures, and this is not addresses by
the climate models. I suspect it may well be a poor fundamental understanding of how a greenhouse gas works.
Oh, really?

NASA NEX-GDDP includes maximum and minimum temps
So does HADCM3 (used in IPCC AR3)
And EdGCM
And GFDLM CM3 (used in IPCC AR4)

Which climate models don't offer minimums and maximums?
 
I think the Hansen 37.5 year time frame came from,
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2005/2005_Hansen_ha00110y.pdf

60% of equilibrium response in 25-50 years is consistent with my earlier post (which would have had sixty percent after forty-six years. Even if we made that 60% in just thirty-four years - twenty percent first-year response and two percent of the remainder each subsequent year - we would still conclude that the expected initial warming from the IPCC's historical forcing estimates has been amplified more than 100% in observed temperatures.
Code:
0.414	Expected warming manifest in surface temperatures from radiative forcing
0.9	Total warming, 1860 to 2012
117	% amplification of base warming
2.46	ECS estimate for 2x CO2 (3.71W/m^2)

0.29	Expected warming manifest in surface temperatures from radiative forcing
0.6	Total warming, 1950 to 2012
107	% amplification of base warming
2.33	ECS estimate for 2x CO2 (3.71W/m^2)

Of course, unlike you I am not pretending that my private little calculations are hard and fast science. Mostly, it's interesting just to point out how atrociously bad your private little calculations have been. Unlike you, I recognize that even without such obvious errors this is still just dabbling around to see if I can understanding anything of scientists' conclusions. An ECS around 2.4 to 3 degrees seems to be the likely result from several different approaches I've looked into, which is encouraging since the majority of scientific studies also seem to reach best estimates above 2.4 degrees.

The Maximum temperatures have not increased as fast as the minimum temperatures,

They have since the 1990s or so, as I've shown you numerous times in the link above... and as predicted by a paper submitted by Hansen, Sato and Ruedy in 1994. Furthermore, one of the chief reasons why they expected the damping of the diurnal temperature range to level off was because of thermal inertia; the reduction in DTR being introduced primarily from the initial forcings - aerosols blocking sunlight to reduce the daytime warming trend while GHGs strongly affect night-time warming - whereas the catch-up from thermal inertia should affect day and night-time temperatures equally. (Conversely, if the warming was due to solar influence it would obviously appear primarily in the daytime temperatures!)

"We can safely predict that on the long run the effect of the diurnal damping on maximum temperatures will be small. . . . Second, as illustrated by Fig. 21, almost all of the damping caused by a climate forcing occurs immediately with the introduction of the forcing, while the mean temperature rise is delayed by the thermal inertia of the climate system. Thus the unrealized warming for greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere will appear almost equally in daily maximum and daily minimum temperatures. Third, as anthropogenic emissions level off the forcings which principally damp the diurnal cycle, aerosol and cloud changes, will level off, but the long-lived greenhouse gases will continue to accumulate. Thus, except for the small damping due to increased water vapor, the maximum temperature should increase as fast as the minimum temperature."​

and this is not addresses by the climate models.

Still playing the game of how many lies can you cram into one thread? As I've just showed, the comparatively smaller trend of maximum temperatures was always an expected consequence if anthropogenic GHGs and aerosols were the dominant climate forcings - unlike most if not all natural drivers - and since at least the early 1990s and probably earlier so was the turnaround when maximum temperatures would start increasing just as much, which has since been confirmed in observations.

I mean, in the past you yourself have said that Svante Arrhenius in 1896 predicted this diurnal asymmetry, for Christ's sake! And now you're trying to baldly assert (without a shred of evidence or understanding) that it's some kind of fatal flaw in climate modelling. As others have noted, your rhetoric really has taken a nosedive lately; the 2014 record hottest year must have been hard enough to bear, and you could ignore 2015 and '16 because of El Nino, but 2017 and now even '18 shaping up hotter than 2014...? It seems to have taken a psychological toll.

Let's not forget that your initial claim in this thread was that "maximum temperatures have not been climbing," which you are fully aware was a brazen falsehood.
 
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The assumptions are based on evidence, and it's all extensively documented.



Already done. See my post.



No, it really can't. The US is only 1.9% of the world's surface, and it's only in one hemisphere. And again, IPCC has numbers, which again were not pulled out of thin air.



Try again, please.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/07/the-great-barrier-reef-a-catastrophe-laid-bare
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00265009
IMIS | Flanders Marine Institute
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002270100676



That's not an answer. What a surprise.

Tell me what evidence is the 1750 level of forcing based upon?

You were correct the annual maximum temperature graph still shows a positive trend,
I was remembering the summer graph, which is a zero trend from 1931.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/natio...ase=10&firsttrendyear=1931&lasttrendyear=2018

Proxie like other statistical samples work because they represent a broad cross section.
Since much of the warming is in the norther hemisphere, the lower 48 is not a bad proxy.
I think the there are still many questions about what could be stressing coral,
your cited experiment involved water temperature increases between 2 and 6 C, where the increases in actual surface temperatures have been closer to 1 C.
https://www.globalchange.gov/browse/indicators/indicator-sea-surface-temperatures

What will it take for you to understand that the models have failed?
The assumptions used were not realistic, and the amplification factors cannot be demonstrated to be as high as claimed.
 
Oh, really?

NASA NEX-GDDP includes maximum and minimum temps
So does HADCM3 (used in IPCC AR3)
And EdGCM
And GFDLM CM3 (used in IPCC AR4)

Which climate models don't offer minimums and maximums?

Sorry I did not mean to say Computer models bu temperature data sets.
If you know of a temperature data set that has maximum and minimum temperatures, I would actually like to know,
Unlike the alarmist, I follow the data.
 
6




Still playing the game of how many lies can you cram into one thread? As I've just showed, the comparatively smaller trend of maximum temperatures was always an expected consequence if anthropogenic GHGs and aerosols were the dominant climate forcings - unlike most if not all natural drivers - and since at least the early 1990s and probably earlier so was the turnaround when maximum temperatures would start increasing just as much, which has since been confirmed in observations.

I mean, in the past you yourself have said that Svante Arrhenius in 1896 predicted this diurnal asymmetry, for Christ's sake! And now you're trying to baldly assert (without a shred of evidence or understanding) that it's some kind of fatal flaw in climate modelling. As others have noted, your rhetoric really has taken a nosedive lately; the 2014 record hottest year must have been hard enough to bear, and you could ignore 2015 and '16 because of El Nino, but 2017 and now even '18 shaping up hotter than 2014...? It seems to have taken a psychological toll.

Let's not forget that your initial claim in this thread was that "maximum temperatures have not been climbing," which you are fully aware was a brazen falsehood.
Perhaps it would be best to cite Hansen's entire paragraph.
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2005/2005_Hansen_ha00110y.pdf
The lag in the climate response to a forcing is a sensitive function of
equilibrium climate sensitivity, varying approximately as the square
of the sensitivity (1), and it depends on the rate of heat exchange
between the ocean_s surface mixed layer and the deeper ocean (2–4).
The lag could be as short as a decade, if climate sensitivity is as
small as 0.25-C per W/m2 of forcing, but it is a century or longer
if climate sensitivity is 1-C per W/m2 or larger(1, 3).
Evidence from Earth_s history (3–6) and climate models
(7) suggests that climate sensitivity is 0.75- T 0.25-C per
W/m2, implying that 25 to 50 years are needed for Earth_s
surface temperature to reach 60% of its equilibrium response (1).
I thought I would look up his references to his earlier paper abut evidence from earth's history.
This is his reference 6
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2006/2006_Hansen_ha07110b.pdf
The opening sentence of the abstract says this,
Global surface temperature has increased ~0.2°C per decade in the
past 30 years, similar to the warming rate predicted in the 1980s in
initial global climate model simulations with transient greenhouse
gas changes.
Hansen says the lag in the climate response is a function of the sensitivity, and he based the sensitivity on 1976 to 2006,
at ~0.2°C per decade, but that level was not persistent.
The longer term warming is closer to about .15 C per decade, this would make the models wrong and shorten the lag time.

Hansen said he thought the dampening would run it's course , and T-Max would catch up to T-Min,
what was stated in the Arrhenius paper was that they observed the asymmetry back in the 19th century, implying the asymmetry is a century long fixture,
and likely an artifact of how CO2 warms the air.


Sorry I had to cut your quote to fit the response.
 
60% of equilibrium response in 25-50 years is consistent with my earlier post (which would have had sixty percent after forty-six years. Even if we made that 60% in just thirty-four years - twenty percent first-year response and two percent of the remainder each subsequent year - we would still conclude that the expected initial warming from the IPCC's historical forcing estimates has been amplified more than 100% in observed temperatures.
Code:
0.414Expected warming manifest in surface temperatures from radiative forcing
0.9Total warming, 1860 to 2012
117% amplification of base warming
2.46ECS estimate for 2x CO2 (3.71W/m^2)

0.29Expected warming manifest in surface temperatures from radiative forcing
0.6Total warming, 1950 to 2012
107% amplification of base warming
2.33ECS estimate for 2x CO2 (3.71W/m^2)

Of course, unlike you I am not pretending that my private little calculations are hard and fast science. Mostly, it's interesting just to point out how atrociously bad your private little calculations have been. Unlike you, I recognize that even without such obvious errors this is still just dabbling around to see if I can understanding anything of scientists' conclusions. An ECS around 2.4 to 3 degrees seems to be the likely result from several different approaches I've looked into, which is encouraging since the majority of scientific studies also seem to reach best estimates above 2.4 degrees.



They have since the 1990s or so, as I've shown you numerous times in the link above... and as predicted by a paper submitted by Hansen, Sato and Ruedy in 1994. Furthermore, one of the chief reasons why they expected the damping of the diurnal temperature range to level off was because of thermal inertia; the reduction in DTR being introduced primarily from the initial forcings - aerosols blocking sunlight to reduce the daytime warming trend while GHGs strongly affect night-time warming - whereas the catch-up from thermal inertia should affect day and night-time temperatures equally. (Conversely, if the warming was due to solar influence it would obviously appear primarily in the daytime temperatures!)

"We can safely predict that on the long run the effect of the diurnal damping on maximum temperatures will be small. . . . Second, as illustrated by Fig. 21, almost all of the damping caused by a climate forcing occurs immediately with the introduction of the forcing, while the mean temperature rise is delayed by the thermal inertia of the climate system. Thus the unrealized warming for greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere will appear almost equally in daily maximum and daily minimum temperatures. Third, as anthropogenic emissions level off the forcings which principally damp the diurnal cycle, aerosol and cloud changes, will level off, but the long-lived greenhouse gases will continue to accumulate. Thus, except for the small damping due to increased water vapor, the maximum temperature should increase as fast as the minimum temperature."​



Still playing the game of how many lies can you cram into one thread? As I've just showed, the comparatively smaller trend of maximum temperatures was always an expected consequence if anthropogenic GHGs and aerosols were the dominant climate forcings - unlike most if not all natural drivers - and since at least the early 1990s and probably earlier so was the turnaround when maximum temperatures would start increasing just as much, which has since been confirmed in observations.

I mean, in the past you yourself have said that Svante Arrhenius in 1896 predicted this diurnal asymmetry, for Christ's sake! And now you're trying to baldly assert (without a shred of evidence or understanding) that it's some kind of fatal flaw in climate modelling. As others have noted, your rhetoric really has taken a nosedive lately; the 2014 record hottest year must have been hard enough to bear, and you could ignore 2015 and '16 because of El Nino, but 2017 and now even '18 shaping up hotter than 2014...? It seems to have taken a psychological toll.

Let's not forget that your initial claim in this thread was that "maximum temperatures have not been climbing," which you are fully aware was a brazen falsehood.

Apparently, the repeated eviscerations are having no effect.

But keep going! It’s quite enjoyable.
 
Sorry I had to cut your quote to fit the response.

If you want to call it a response. But yeah, really wish it was 6 or 7k, 'cos I'm so often around the 5.5k mark. So to simplify, I think our exchange falls under two basic headings, related but ultimately distinct:

1 > Feedbacks/amplification/thermal inertia/ECS
So to your most recent point, yes, I know equalization times vary with sensitivity; I've read that paper before, as have you. What that means is that your fixation on the absolutely shortest timeframes you can find - even when demonstrably and obviously inappropriate, such as the declining forcing of the two papers you linked earlier, and the 60% in 25-50 years of Hansen's paper which you tried to pass off as 100% in 37 years, a three for three failure - or indeed your initial decision to ignore thermal inertia entirely, were and are entirely circular reasoning on your part.

Again, the majority of scientific papers conclude a best estimate for ECS above 2.4 degrees. Even as an amateur, there are multiple ways to 'confirm' that as a probable conclusion; for example ln(CO2) vs. temperature; CO2 vs. temperature allowing for inertia; and IPCC forcing estimates vs. temperature allowing for inertia, all of which are graphed in that spreadsheet. You are the one trying to claim that the scientists have got it wrong, and yet your most recent post has just added proof of your own circularity to all the other laughable errors which I've already pointed out.


2 > DTR trends/Longview's blatant lie that "maximum temperatures have not been climbing"
The heading pretty much says it all, and your most recent post really hasn't added or changed anything to that aspect of the discussion besides a creative 'reinterpretation' of your earlier comment on Arrhenius' paper. Could you quote exactly where "what was stated in the Arrhenius paper was that they observed the asymmetry back in the 19th century"? I'm not even aware of any hemispheric or continental (never mind global!) temperature record having been compiled back then, let alone with sufficient precision to discern distinct Tmin and Tmax trends! By contrast the fact that the fractional warming of added greenhouse gases should have a greater impact at night would not have been difficult to deduce (humid days are potentially but not always hotter than dry days, whereas humid nights are always a lot hotter than dry nights), was consistent with the actual topic of Arrhenius' paper, and seems to be the clearly-implied meaning of your post last year.

I'll look forward to your quote of exactly where "what was stated in the Arrhenius paper was that they observed the asymmetry back in the 19th century"; but failing that, it looks like this attempt at revisionism might be just one more lie we can add to your growing list.
 
Tell me what evidence is the 1750 level of forcing based upon?
https://ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_FINAL_full_wcover.pdf


You were correct the annual maximum temperature graph still shows a positive trend,
I was remembering the summer graph, which is a zero trend from 1931.
Well, now you know.


Proxie like other statistical samples work because they represent a broad cross section. Since much of the warming is in the norther hemisphere, the lower 48 is not a bad proxy.
Whatever, dude. If you actually believe what you're saying, then you should accept that both minimums and maximums are increasing.


I think the there are still many questions about what could be stressing coral,
your cited experiment involved water temperature increases between 2 and 6 C, where the increases in actual surface temperatures have been closer to 1 C.
:roll:

Global ocean temperatures, averaged over long periods of time, have gone up by 1C. Yet again! That does not mean that every single drop of ocean water rose by 1C. Some areas have risen substantially, others barely rose, some even cooled. You have no excuse for not knowing this.


What will it take for you to understand that the models have failed?
Despite what the harridan deniers proclaim, they haven't failed. They're fairly accurate, especially when we set aside scenarios that were never meant to be realistic in the first place (e.g. RCP 8.5).
 
Sorry I did not mean to say Computer models bu temperature data sets.
If you know of a temperature data set that has maximum and minimum temperatures, I would actually like to know,
Unlike the alarmist, I follow the data.
Then why don't you know that the data sets also offer maximum and minimum?

GHCN v3 offers maximums and minimums (TMAX and TMIN)
ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ghcn/v3/

So does NOAA, just not in the tool that makes charts for you based on global data (e.g. see documentation for global summaries; table includes TMAX and TMIN)
https://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cdo/documentation/gsom-gsoy_documentation.pdf

Berkeley Earth includes average high and average low, as well as complete station archives for TMIN and TMAX
Berkeley Earth
 
Sorry I did not mean to say Computer models bu temperature data sets.
If you know of a temperature data set that has maximum and minimum temperatures, I would actually like to know,
Unlike the alarmist, I follow the data.
By the way, Berkeley data. This is the Monthly Average High Temperature (or "Estimated Global Land-Surface TMAX based on the Complete Berkeley Dataset").

Berkeley Earth -- Land TMAX Anomaly Relative to 1951-1980 Average.jpg
 
Berkeley Earth includes average high and average low, as well as complete station archives for TMIN and TMAX
Berkeley Earth

Fascinating, thanks! Interestingly, based on that data it seems that the Tmin increase barely even slowed during the middle of the century while the Tmax declined. Perhaps that suggests that the mid-century cooling may have been mostly the result of declining solar activity (after the late 50s) and especially anthropogenic aerosols reducing daytime insolation (40s to 70s), rather than natural cycles as I've previously assumed.

BEST min-max.jpg
 
If you want to call it a response. But yeah, really wish it was 6 or 7k, 'cos I'm so often around the 5.5k mark. So to simplify, I think our exchange falls under two basic headings, related but ultimately distinct:

1 > Feedbacks/amplification/thermal inertia/ECS
So to your most recent point, yes, I know equalization times vary with sensitivity; I've read that paper before, as have you. What that means is that your fixation on the absolutely shortest timeframes you can find - even when demonstrably and obviously inappropriate, such as the declining forcing of the two papers you linked earlier, and the 60% in 25-50 years of Hansen's paper which you tried to pass off as 100% in 37 years, a three for three failure - or indeed your initial decision to ignore thermal inertia entirely, were and are entirely circular reasoning on your part.

Again, the majority of scientific papers conclude a best estimate for ECS above 2.4 degrees. Even as an amateur, there are multiple ways to 'confirm' that as a probable conclusion; for example ln(CO2) vs. temperature; CO2 vs. temperature allowing for inertia; and IPCC forcing estimates vs. temperature allowing for inertia, all of which are graphed in that spreadsheet. You are the one trying to claim that the scientists have got it wrong, and yet your most recent post has just added proof of your own circularity to all the other laughable errors which I've already pointed out.


2 > DTR trends/Longview's blatant lie that "maximum temperatures have not been climbing"
The heading pretty much says it all, and your most recent post really hasn't added or changed anything to that aspect of the discussion besides a creative 'reinterpretation' of your earlier comment on Arrhenius' paper. Could you quote exactly where "what was stated in the Arrhenius paper was that they observed the asymmetry back in the 19th century"? I'm not even aware of any hemispheric or continental (never mind global!) temperature record having been compiled back then, let alone with sufficient precision to discern distinct Tmin and Tmax trends! By contrast the fact that the fractional warming of added greenhouse gases should have a greater impact at night would not have been difficult to deduce (humid days are potentially but not always hotter than dry days, whereas humid nights are always a lot hotter than dry nights), was consistent with the actual topic of Arrhenius' paper, and seems to be the clearly-implied meaning of your post last year.

I'll look forward to your quote of exactly where "what was stated in the Arrhenius paper was that they observed the asymmetry back in the 19th century"; but failing that, it looks like this attempt at revisionism might be just one more lie we can add to your growing list.

If the lag in in response is very sensitive as Hansen suggest then a lower sensitivity would have a much shorter lag.
Hansen's said his 25 to 50 years for 60% was based on observed warming of .2 C per decade for the last 30 years,
which we can assume to be the 30 years between 1976 and 2006.
The problem with that is the warming over the the entire CO2 era is lower, which should lower the sensitivity and the lag time.

For Arrhenius, the opening paragraph stated,
A great deal has been written on the influence of the absorption of the atmosphere upon the climate.
Tyndail in particular has pointed out the enormous importance of this question.
To him it was chiefly the diurnal and annual variations of the temperature that were
lessoned by the circumstance.
which is a description of diurnal and seasonal asymmetry.
 
I note the desire to discuss anything except the thread topic.

I again note your inability to intelligently discuss climate modelling in your own words, while seemingly imagining that you can score some kind of rhetorical points from the fact that most others are not discussing it either. You can keep making this appeal to authority as often as you like - "Here's what two people with letters after their names assert, can you prove them wrong?" - but given that it's obviously not fooling anyone, I would've thought you'd at least be glad that the thread keeps getting bumped :lol:

But I guess while I'm here... in post #35 I showed the fairly high level of accuracy in modeled temperature forecasts; both the IPCC global projection envelopes (1991, 1996, 2001 and 2007, with observed temperatures leaving the ranges only when they've come out above the SAR envelope), and the modelling of regional temperature changes of Stouffer et al 1989. But also of interest from the most recent IPCC report is the hindcasting of long-term temperature trends from the (at the time) most recent CMIP5 generation of models. Figure 9.08 from AR5's Working Group 1:
Fig9-08.jpg



Naturally, some folk prefer to pin their hopes on the opinions of one or two 'experts' rather than a more widespread, balanced assessment such as the IPCC's.
 
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I again note your inability to intelligently discuss climate modelling in your own words, while seemingly imagining that you can score some kind of rhetorical points from the fact that most others are not discussing it either. You can keep making this appeal to authority as often as you like - "Here's what two people with letters after their names assert, can you prove them wrong?" - but given that it's obviously not fooling anyone, I would've thought you'd at least be glad that the thread keeps getting bumped :lol:

But I guess while I'm here... in post #35 I showed the fairly high level of accuracy in modeled temperature forecasts; both the IPCC global projection envelopes (1991, 1996, 2001 and 2007, with observed temperatures leaving the ranges only when they've come out above the SAR envelope), and the modelling of regional temperature changes of Stouffer et al 1989. But also of interest from the most recent IPCC report is the hindcasting of long-term temperature trends from the (at the time) most recent CMIP5 generation of models. Figure 9.08 from AR5's Working Group 1:
Fig9-08.jpg



Naturally, some folk prefer to pin their hopes on the opinions of one or two 'experts' rather than a more widespread, balanced assessment such as the IPCC's.

A friend of mine who was a very successful college debater once told me "debates are won in the library." That is the approach I take here, and for which I do not apologize.
As for your claimed model accuracy, I think it's sufficient to return to the OP quote.

"Summarizing, all 102 CMIP5 model runs warm faster than observations, in most individual cases the discrepancy is significant, and on average the discrepancy is significant. The test of trend equivalence rejects whether or not we include a break at 1979, though the rejections are stronger when we control for its influence. Measures of series divergence are centered at a positive mean and the entire distribution is above zero. While the observed analogue exhibits a warming trend over the test interval it is significantly smaller than that shown in models, and the difference is large enough to reject the null hypothesis that models represent it correctly.
To the extent GCMs are getting some features of the surface climate correct as a result of their current tuning, they are doing so with a flawed structure. If tuning to the surface added empirical precision to a valid physical representation, we would expect to see a good fit between models and observations at the point where the models predict the clearest and strongest thermodynamic response to greenhouse gases. Instead we observe a discrepancy across all runs of all models, taking the form of a warming bias at a sufficiently strong rate as to reject the hypothesis that the models are realistic.Our interpretation of the results is that the major hypothesis in contemporary climate models, namely the theoretically-based negative lapse rate feedback response to increasing greenhouse gases in the tropical troposphere, is flawed."
 
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