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Axios: American belief in global warming reaches 10-year high


Bigger question;

Is it a problem?

The Church of Global Warming IS a problem. It wants to become the state religion. It stems from the Church of Karl Marx. It's intent is to destroy the bourgeoisie. It's preferred method seems to be by implementing fascism.

That's a problem.
 
1) Your pretend innocence for a topic we've already discussed (and where you were demonstrably refuted) is inexcusable.

2) Your request to change the subject is denied. The topic of this thread is "the overwhelming majority of Americans believe that global temperatures are rising," not "Tim the Plumber wants to go off on another of his usual denialist rants."

Surveys like this don't mean anything.
 
It's a shame they don't provide any sampling data in regard to political party, especially since they give so many results based on party.

Depending on their missing numbers, this poll might be bogus...might not. We'll never know.

If you don't know, it's bogus right there for that reason alone.
 
shrug...maybe. But without the numbers, we don't know, do we?

Maybe you trust them. I've seen enough bogus polls to never trust without the numbers.

Good attitude. Statistical analysis results mean nothing unless the raw data is available...ALL of it.
Only in this way can the variance source used to calculate the margin of error be justified. Only in this way can one determine if biasing influences on the data and data selection were properly eliminated.
 
:roll:

Instead of bitching and moaning, you could actually look it up. Here's the survey.

http://closup.umich.edu/national-su...ment/questionnaires/NSEE-2017-Fall-Qnaire.pdf

(The numbers next to the questions, by the way, are codes for the survey.)

And raw data on the answers:
Spring 2017 National Surveys on Energy and Environment Data Tables| CLOSUP

And yes, the questions are fine. There is no need to waterboard survey respondents until they provide incredible degrees of nuance in their answers, that is completely superfluous. What matters is that this poll provides good evidence that the vast majority of Americans believe that the climate is warming, that over 1/3 of Americans believe it's due to human activity alone, and another 1/4 believe it's partly human causes.

This is not raw data. The survey itself admits it. It is using cooked data. Not allowed for a statistical analysis. Selection of data MUST be by randN from the RAW data.
 
Manmade global warming and its negative effect have been known for a long time.
Define 'global warming' without using circular definitions. This buzzword has been around a long time. It is still just as meaningless as when it was first used.
For example, that American fossil fuel companies was provide evidence of climate change in 1968....deleted Holy Link...
There are no American fossil fuel companies. We don't burn fossils for fuel. They don't burn. We use oil, coal, natural gas, hydroelectric, nuclear, wind, and solar.
Also, the fossil fuel companies own studies show the negative effects of climate change.
The oil companies you mentioned are trying to market their products to members of the Church of Global Warming, and trying to protect government research money.
...deleted Holy Links...
So that you still have a debate and doubt about climate change is much to do with the deceptive tactics used by the fossil fuel companies to influence public opinion and delay action on climate change.
Define 'climate change' without using circular definitions. This meaningless buzzword has been around awhile too. Buzzwords do not require action except by the person using them.
“It is difficult to imagine that executives, lobbyists, and scientists at major fossil companies were by this time unaware of the robust scientific evidence of the risks associated with the continued burning of their products.

Indeed, one of the key documents highlighted in the deception dossiers is a 1995 internal memo written by a team headed by a Mobil Corporation scientist and distributed to many major fossil fuel companies. The internal report warned unequivocally that burning the companies' products was causing climate change and that the relevant science "is well established and cannot be denied."

There is no theory of science based on meaningless buzzwords. It is not possible to even have a nonscientific theory based on meaningless buzzwords. If you want to have any theories about 'global warming' or 'climate change', you MUST first DEFINE them in some way other than by themselves.
How did fossil fuel companies respond? They embarked on a series of campaigns to deliberately deceive the public about the reality of climate change and block any actions that might curb carbon emissions.”
...deleted Holy Link...
CO2 is incapable of warming the Earth. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth. There is no such thing as 'greenhouse' effect except in an actual greenhouse. Greenhouses work by reducing heat, specifically convective heat. The atmosphere is open. It does not reduce convective heat.
 
lol

I point out that you wanted the questions to nit-pick at them. You deny this, then in the very next sentence, you nit-pick at the questions. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Anyway... When you ask someone if they are willing to pay more for renewable energy, that means you're trying to find out if they are willing to pay more for renewable energy. It does not necessarily reflect their belief about whether global warming is happening, or if humans are causing it. That's why... wait for it... they asked those specific questions.

I suggest you stop cherry-picking, and start accepting the results.

The survey results are invalid. They even admit to cooking the data on the survey site you gave.
 
But it is the otherwise lack of anything to panic about that attracts the alarmists to CO2.

They seem to need some sort of panic in their lives. No amount of pointing out that there is no threat stops them.

An excellent observation!

Yes, for some believing in something as 'important' as impending doom and disaster is the only thing they have to bring their lives out of obscurity. It's a one-uppance contest among themselves, each trying to predict a greater doom and catastrophe, then their neighbor. It's actually a form of gossip.
For others, there is a political agenda and a goal. The Church of Global Warming stems from the Church of Karl Marx. The intention is to destroy the bourgeoisie by implementing fascism.

Watch the believers, and you'll find they all share this same goal on some level.
 
An excellent observation!

Yes, for some believing in something as 'important' as impending doom and disaster is the only thing they have to bring their lives out of obscurity. It's a one-uppance contest among themselves, each trying to predict a greater doom and catastrophe, then their neighbor. It's actually a form of gossip.
For others, there is a political agenda and a goal. The Church of Global Warming stems from the Church of Karl Marx. The intention is to destroy the bourgeoisie by implementing fascism.

Watch the believers, and you'll find they all share this same goal on some level.
I wish their goal was as simple as Marxism.
Based on the tone from the green alarmist, they are closet eugenicist.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/apr/26/world-population-resources-paul-ehrlich
How many you support depends on lifestyles. We came up with 1.5 to 2 billion because you can have big active cities and wilderness.
Hum! 1.5 to 2 Billion, I wonder who get to pick who stays, and what the exit sign looks like?
 
[h=2]Just like that: 48% of Australians happy to pull out of Paris[/h]
The idea of Pulling out of Paris is barely discussed in Australia. Tony Abbott made it a national discussion for five minutes last week, but apparently that’s all it takes, or even less. After 30 years of non-stop agitprop and years of bipartisan rah, rah, solemn “history in the making” cheer, the truth is Australian’s mostly don’t give a toss. All we had to do was ask them.
It’s a loaded question framesd as “if pulling out could result in lower electricity prices”... Purists may protest that this overstates the result. Not so. If we had any kind of rational national discussion it would be obvious to all that the “could” is a wishy washy misleading and loaded term — seeding the possibility that pulling out might not lower prices. If people knew that no nation on Earth with lots of unreliables also has cheap electricity, even more people would want to abandon Paris.
[h=4]By more than two to one, people want cheaper power, not Paris points:[/h]Almost two thirds, 63 per cent, of voters also claimed that cheaper power should be governments’ priority with only 24 per cent believing reducing emissions should take precedence.
NewsPoll, Australia out of Paris, July 2018.

In any normal electorate this would be a seismic hot number. Even a quarter of Greens voters are willing to chuck Paris for cheaper power bills. And it’s clearly a dominant issue among One Nation voters. What better way for a rampaging Coalition to steal back centre right voters and win the centre left too? Except they won’t — Turnbull gave up this electoral gift and almost lost the last election, all he had to do was follow Abbott’s lead.
This revealing polling comes from The Australian, under the title:
[h=3]Coalition’s power pricing policies finally gaining traction with voters[/h]The Minister for Energy and stuff spins on:
Keep reading →
 
[h=2]Just like that: 48% of Australians happy to pull out of Paris[/h]
The idea of Pulling out of Paris is barely discussed in Australia. Tony Abbott made it a national discussion for five minutes last week, but apparently that’s all it takes, or even less. After 30 years of non-stop agitprop and years of bipartisan rah, rah, solemn “history in the making” cheer, the truth is Australian’s mostly don’t give a toss. All we had to do was ask them.
It’s a loaded question framesd as “if pulling out could result in lower electricity prices”... Purists may protest that this overstates the result. Not so. If we had any kind of rational national discussion it would be obvious to all that the “could” is a wishy washy misleading and loaded term — seeding the possibility that pulling out might not lower prices. If people knew that no nation on Earth with lots of unreliables also has cheap electricity, even more people would want to abandon Paris.
[h=4]By more than two to one, people want cheaper power, not Paris points:[/h]Almost two thirds, 63 per cent, of voters also claimed that cheaper power should be governments’ priority with only 24 per cent believing reducing emissions should take precedence.
NewsPoll, Australia out of Paris, July 2018.

In any normal electorate this would be a seismic hot number. Even a quarter of Greens voters are willing to chuck Paris for cheaper power bills. And it’s clearly a dominant issue among One Nation voters. What better way for a rampaging Coalition to steal back centre right voters and win the centre left too? Except they won’t — Turnbull gave up this electoral gift and almost lost the last election, all he had to do was follow Abbott’s lead.
This revealing polling comes from The Australian, under the title:
[h=3]Coalition’s power pricing policies finally gaining traction with voters[/h]The Minister for Energy and stuff spins on:
Keep reading →

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

This news does not surprise me - I have been hearing about the ever-increasing hits to their wallets for months from angry folks I keep in touch with in Australia! I wouldn't be happy either if my electric bill tripled! Further; I am quite skeptical that the percentage of unhappy people is really only 48 percent, according to the government figures that the authorities are using, which would indicate that more than half the population is okay with ever-increasing utility bills! Really? Uh huh - NOT! :2mad:
 
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

This news does not surprise me - I have been hearing about the ever-increasing hits to their wallets for months from angry folks I keep in touch with in Australia! I wouldn't be happy either if my electric bill tripled! Further; I am quite skeptical that the percentage of unhappy people is really only 48 percent, according to the government figures that the authorities are using, which would indicate that more than half the population is okay with ever-increasing utility bills! Really? Uh huh - NOT! :2mad:

Greetings, Polgara.:2wave:

It does not sound good.:shock:
 
https://www.axios.com/united-states...igh-7f706e6f-6683-4011-b66b-db9b807ce6b8.html

Full PDF of the report: http://closup.umich.edu/files/ieep-nsee-2018-spring-climate-belief.pdf

Axios presents a brief summary of a long-term poll conducted by the Issues in Energy and Environmental Policy / National Surveys on Energy and Environment. The percentage of Americans who believe there is solid evidence for global warming, as well as the percentage of people who attribute it to human activity, is at a 10-year high.

The number who believe in global warming has gone up and down since 2008, but is now at 73%. The lowest numbers were in 2010, at 52%.

34% believe global warming is primarily due to human activity; another 26% believe it is in part due to human activity, and part other causes. Only 12% say it is exclusively natural, and another 15% do not believe the climate is changing at all.

Unsurprisingly, there is a partisan divide over the issue, which is also larger than usual.

I guess that's what happens when you have years of record high temperatures, plus hurricanes whose impact is intensified by climate change, plus droughts and heat waves and massive glaciers calving off of Antarctica and...

Or its what you get when you spoon feed climate dogma to children from 1st to 12th grade, have the MSM join in to preach relentless alarm, and collectively flail yourself as environmental sinners.

Reminds me of a primitive society who bemoans a drought because the gods are unhappy with their sinful ways. Naturally such calls for sacrifice on the alter of atonement, if not in blood then in human economic well-being.
 
Or its what you get when you spoon feed climate dogma to children from 1st to 12th grade, have the MSM join in to preach relentless alarm, and collectively flail yourself as environmental sinners.
Whatever, dude


Reminds me of a primitive society who bemoans a drought because the gods are unhappy with their sinful ways. Naturally such calls for sacrifice on the alter of atonement, if not in blood then in human economic well-being.
Sure, if those primitives had PhD's in climatology and environmental science; access to a global network of temperature measurement stations and satellites; decades of data on ice masses, permafrost levels, and global sea levels....
 
If you want the science taken serious then stop defending it with opinion polls.. :roll:
 
Whatever, dude

Sure, if those primitives had PhD's in climatology and environmental science; access to a global network of temperature measurement stations and satellites; decades of data on ice masses, permafrost levels, and global sea levels....

As you are touting the new worship of climate fear by the masses, who also don't have PhD's or even AA's in climate science, your point must also endorse the view that they are primitives too...which, if you think of it, was my point.

"Own petard, meet hoist".
 
Well it may not seem like it but we are going in the right direction. A few years ago you couldn't get anyone on the right side of the spectrum to even admit the earth is warming, now we have even my Trump supporting parents admitting the earth is warming, they've just shifted to arguing its volcanoes and natural cycles and has absolutely nothing to do with human activity. Not quite there, but progress nonetheless.

On a side note, these are the same parents that about 6 years back told me hurricanes on the east coast are god's way of telling DC politicians climate change is bull****.

We won't be going in the right direction until the impossible happens, the polis becomes sophisticated, and both the hoi polloi and scientists become dispassionate, open, and respectful of the full diversity of views.

Were that so the "right direction" would be to acknowledge our ignorance, our inability to change the direction or degree of warming, the uncertainty of the cost/benefit of climate change, and the promise of geo-engineering as the likely most cost-effective strategy for the future generations to solve.

Till then, enjoy the balmy weather and the end of the little ice age.
 
We won't be going in the right direction until the impossible happens, the polis becomes sophisticated, and both the hoi polloi and scientists become dispassionate, open, and respectful of the full diversity of views.
Again... Whatever, dude.

Scientists have no obligation to treat cranks and fossil fuel industry flunkies as equals; and a sophisticated polis will reject what you're dishing out, as each year that goes by displays more and more effects of the human impact on the environment.


Were that so the "right direction" would be to acknowledge our ignorance, our inability to change the direction or degree of warming, the uncertainty of the cost/benefit of climate change, and the promise of geo-engineering as the likely most cost-effective strategy for the future generations to solve.
Fun fact! Climate science has a pretty good idea of what they don't know; it's expressed in ranges of uncertainty. And while we don't know everything, we certainly do understand the most important factors:

• Human beings are producing unprecedented amounts of greenhouse gases
• As more greenhouse gases enter the atmosphere, more heat gets trapped, and this has major consequences for the environment
• Prevention is substantially better than trying to fix it later, especially since something like geo-engineering will produce unpredictable consequences and effects
• We're already doing lots of damage that can't be reversed

I.e. passing the buck to your kids is not going to produce the best outcomes.
 
Again... Whatever, dude.

Scientists have no obligation to treat cranks and fossil fuel industry flunkies as equals; and a sophisticated polis will reject what you're dishing out, as each year that goes by displays more and more effects of the human impact on the environment.

In other words, "scientists" have no obligation to provide full disclosure, dispassionate reasoning, or respect for anyone else's view that is "unworthy" according to the person withholding the information and mixing science with political axe grinding. That's a pretty lame trope, ESPECIALLY as no one said they were obliged to do anything.

I stated that it would be the right direction, whether or not they choose to do it. Got the difference "dude"?

Fun fact! Climate science has a pretty good idea of what they don't know; it's expressed in ranges of uncertainty. And while we don't know everything, we certainly do understand the most important factors:

• Human beings are producing unprecedented amounts of greenhouse gases
• As more greenhouse gases enter the atmosphere, more heat gets trapped, and this has major consequences for the environment
• Prevention is substantially better than trying to fix it later, especially since something like geo-engineering will produce unpredictable consequences and effects
• We're already doing lots of damage that can't be reversed

I.e. passing the buck to your kids is not going to produce the best outcomes.


I am as impressed with your claims as I am with any list of unsupported assertions - NOT. After having done my own review of the literature on environmental economics (DIME etc.) and alternatives to "prevention" I disagree. Passing the buck is the best outcome.
 
In other words, "scientists" have no obligation to provide full disclosure, dispassionate reasoning, or respect for anyone else's view that is "unworthy" according to the person withholding the information and mixing science with political axe grinding. That's a pretty lame trope, ESPECIALLY as no one said they were obliged to do anything.
:roll:

Scientists do provide transparency, weigh the evidence, and pay attention to other actual scientists who present contrary evidence.

That doesn't mean they are obligated to treat cranks and shills as though they are anything other than cranks and shills. They certainly have no obligation to respect an uneducated anonymous WUWT poster, who chucks out a bunch of denialist nonsense, the same way they would a professional published climate scientist.


I am as impressed with your claims as I am with any list of unsupported assertions - NOT. After having done my own review of the literature on environmental economics (DIME etc.) and alternatives to "prevention" I disagree. Passing the buck is the best outcome.
Oh, I had no idea that you did your own review. It's not like that statement is an unsupported assertion. Silly me. :lamo

Is it better to get stabbed in the gut and taken care of by a surgeon who has never handled knife wounds, or not to get stabbed in the first place? That is, after all, what you're suggesting.

Any even remotely rational person who has looked at geo-engineering should realize that the risks are enormous, the outcomes unpredictable, and capabilities insufficient. We have never deliberately engaged in the kind of projects required to reverse some of the damage we've already done; e.g. dumping massive amounts of aerosols could wreak havoc with the environment, in ways known and unknown. Most geoengineering projects won't mitigate existing harms, such as ocean acidification, coral losses, marine cloud brightening, ice losses and more. Not to mention that just a moment ago, you were saying we don't understand the environment -- yet you're fine with untested (and untestable) global geo-engineering projects? How does that fly?

Your position also seems rather irresponsible. If you recognize the need for those types of geo-engineering projects, then you realize that human activities are harming the climate. Worse yet, your attitude displays one of the big risks -- namely, people will assume that "since it's a snap to cool the climate, who cares? Let's just keep cranking out the CO2!" -- a mentality which, surprise surprise, results in greater emissions of GHGs, which can overwhelm our newly-produced capacity to reduce the harm we're doing.

By the way, we do know how to reduce emissions. We can produce less waste and less garbage; we can push for energy efficiency standards, in buildings and with vehicles; we can push for sustainable and green energy generation, to name a few. We've already seen how the cost of renewables has been falling through the floor over the past decade, and it is likely to continue to fall. There is no grand mystery, we just have to get on it.

Another bonus? Even though it's very difficult, the reality is that we can cut emissions right now. We are decades away from even the start of any sort of geoengineering projects.

Ultimately, we are doing so much harm and may need to move with enough alacrity to need some types of geoengineering. That is a far, far cry from suggesting that it is the first option we should consider.
 
:roll:

Scientists do provide transparency, weigh the evidence, and pay attention to other actual scientists who present contrary evidence.

That doesn't mean they are obligated to treat cranks and shills as though they are anything other than cranks and shills. They certainly have no obligation to respect an uneducated anonymous WUWT poster, who chucks out a bunch of denialist nonsense, the same way they would a professional published climate scientist.

And heading in the right direction can only happen (in part) when requests to openly publish data, code, and methods are welcomed and embraced by those scientists, as opposed to hiding them out of sight. Railing against "obligations" for full disclosure is the first tactic of every grifter, and is not the attitude of the innocent (rather, it is the attitude of the guilty).

So name calling stonewalled folks as cranks and shills does not fool anyone (except those wishing to fool themselves). Soapbox indignity and supercilious outrage over the providing how their black box supported there "findings" is no more convincing than it was for Elizabeth Holmes, the fraudster who used the identical stone-walling on how her "black box" blood testing worked - except she is likely to serve 5-25 years in prison for her fraud.

The right direction has been to emulate more serious and sophisticated academic and statistical work such as in economics, where data and methods of papers have been routinely and customarily published for decades. Thankfully, a some of the more recent authors (e.g. Marcott) are beginning to do so - such courage should be celebrated.

Oh, I had no idea that you did your own review. It's not like that statement is an unsupported assertion. Silly me. :lamo

Is it better to get stabbed in the gut and taken care of by a surgeon who has never handled knife wounds, or not to get stabbed in the first place? That is, after all, what you're suggesting.

Any even remotely rational person who has looked at geo-engineering should realize that the risks are enormous, the outcomes unpredictable, and capabilities insufficient.

It's not an assertion, it is my eye-witness report on what I did. Feel free to cite me in the future ;)

In the meantime, I understand your hostility to geo-engineering - its an article of faith in the green religion that nothing less than sacrifice and punishment by a omnipotent command authority is acceptable. I mean, what's a state religion if it not punishment by the high priests of officialdom for our sins, right?

On the other hand, a decade ago a cost-benefit analysis by environmental economist William Nordhaus using his DIME model found geo-engineering to be the most cost-effective avenue of mitigation. Subsequently he has not advocated it only because the hennery-penny nature worshippers have declared it off-limits and too terrifying as a technological solution that might solve a problem without sufficiently punishing us for the sins of consumption and waste.

None the less, not all share the mindless hostility and irrational fears of using technology as well a embracing adaptation to mitigate whatever negative effects are feared (e.g. Ted Nordhaus and the Breakthrough Institute). Geo-engineering, in particular, is considered by many to be essential: https://www.theneweconomy.com/energy/geoengineering-is-an-essential-bridge-to-true-sustainability.

Of course, that is assuming that the crisis is real and in need of serious solutions. But the reality is that no one really knows the cost-benefit ratio of increased balmy weather, and that absent such knowledge it would be most foolish to pursue a policy regime that has the twin vices of being both ineffective and costly ; i.e. idiotic efforts such as the Kyoto protocols and the Paris agreement. As William Nordhaus (no relation to Ted Nordhaus) noted the WORST mitigation strategy is energy consumption regulation and energy usage quotas.

Your position also seems rather irresponsible. If you recognize the need for those types of geo-engineering projects, then you realize that human activities are harming the climate. Worse yet, your attitude displays one of the big risks -- namely, people will assume that "since it's a snap to cool the climate, who cares? Let's just keep cranking out the CO2!" -- a mentality which, surprise surprise, results in greater emissions of GHGs, which can overwhelm our newly-produced capacity to reduce the harm we're doing.

Cont...
 
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