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A possible step to replacing coal

Heavy metals like mercury. It was Maine scientists that figured it out, that in addition to all the other crap, we were getting slowly poisoned by the mercury. Took years to figure that one out.

https://grist.org/climate-energy/northeast-states-pissed-at-midwest-states-over-coal-pollution/

The main issue was indeed Acid Rain,

The Supreme Court will hear arguments over reviving an EPA rule that would limit sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions in 28 states whose pollution blows into neighboring jurisdictions.

Little talk about Mercury effect in the link, just a mention of a court case. What is missing is real evidence that they are having the supposed damaging effects as claimed.

The Supreme Court case could decide the fate of Presque Isle and many other coal plants, so it’s one to watch. Another air-pollution case is also being argued tomorrow, this one in the D.C. Circuit Court over the EPA’s mercury rules.

The article is nearly 5 years old, what were the court decisions?
 
The main issue was indeed Acid Rain

and heavy metals.

"The good news comes out of a study published last month by researchers at Harvard, the University of Massachusetts and Stony Brook University in New York. Looking at samples of nearly 1,300 bluefin tuna caught in the Gulf of Maine from 2004 to 2012, the scientists found that levels of mercury in the bodies of the fish fell by about 2 percent each year, or nearly 20 percent over a decade.

The decline occurred as coal-fired power plants in the Midwest began going off line or switching to natural gas in 2008, responding to market forces and regulatory and industry curbs on emissions. The relatively quick level of improvement came as a surprise, Stony Brook’s Nicholas Fisher, study co-author, told Scientific American."

https://www.pressherald.com/2016/12...ed-plants-have-made-gulf-of-maine-tuna-safer/
 
The fact is industrialization makes the world cleaner.


[h=1]Does global climate change require a global solution?[/h]Opinion by Andy May Al Gore wrote in the Huffington Post (August 28, 2014) that the need for “bold action” to curtail “old dirty sources of energy … is obvious and urgent.” The proper scientific response to an assertion like that is why? How can I test this idea? Science is not a belief, it…
Continue reading →
 
The great thing about Science, it doesn't stay still.

Thorium Nuclear Reactors are the answer. Thorium doesn't need to be enriched. Doesn't produce a chain reaction (no meltdowns). Is 4 times more abundant in the crust than Uranium. Produces more energy for the same amount of material than Uranium. Spent fuel reduces to radioactivity of coal ash in only 500 years.

And the new Thorium reactors will be able to use old spent fuel rods in moderation without possibility of chain reaction as well, meaning we can slowly use up our nuclear waste.

In other words, we will be seeing alot of safer nuclear power in the future if enough people can be shown the benefits and low risks associated with the newer technologies.
 
Maine was being poisoned by Midwest power plants burning coal.

Clean coal is an oxymoron.

Not too long ago a space station was impossible. It is an abundant energy source that we may one day be able to use efficiently if we stop just throwing our hands in the air and saying it is impossible.
 
I have no problem with power plants running on coal as long as they are as efficient as our technology can provide.

I completely agree with this.

The alarmists amaze me with they pseudo logic. They criticize us when we build with the best technology for emission reductions, and then champion China for planing to build hundreds of new dirty coal plants because the decided to build a few less.

Seems rather idiotic to me, but then look at the kooks we are referring to...
 
Maine was being poisoned by Midwest power plants burning coal.

Clean coal is an oxymoron.

Would you like to go back to the stone age?
 
A possible step to replacing coal

How about an actual step to replacing coal? It truly only takes one step: stop using coal.
 
The main issue was indeed Acid Rain,



Little talk about Mercury effect in the link, just a mention of a court case. What is missing is real evidence that they are having the supposed damaging effects as claimed.



The article is nearly 5 years old, what were the court decisions?

Not only that, but the few remaining dirty operating plants that electric companies want to shut down, are denied the requests, because the power isn't being replaced by anything viable.
 
and heavy metals.

"The good news comes out of a study published last month by researchers at Harvard, the University of Massachusetts and Stony Brook University in New York. Looking at samples of nearly 1,300 bluefin tuna caught in the Gulf of Maine from 2004 to 2012, the scientists found that levels of mercury in the bodies of the fish fell by about 2 percent each year, or nearly 20 percent over a decade.

The decline occurred as coal-fired power plants in the Midwest began going off line or switching to natural gas in 2008, responding to market forces and regulatory and industry curbs on emissions. The relatively quick level of improvement came as a surprise, Stony Brook’s Nicholas Fisher, study co-author, told Scientific American."

https://www.pressherald.com/2016/12...ed-plants-have-made-gulf-of-maine-tuna-safer/

LOL...

How about producing the actual study, and I'll bet that they only have correlation, with no other evidence the mercury comes from coal plant.

Tuna has always had heavy metals!
 
and heavy metals.

"The good news comes out of a study published last month by researchers at Harvard, the University of Massachusetts and Stony Brook University in New York. Looking at samples of nearly 1,300 bluefin tuna caught in the Gulf of Maine from 2004 to 2012, the scientists found that levels of mercury in the bodies of the fish fell by about 2 percent each year, or nearly 20 percent over a decade.

The decline occurred as coal-fired power plants in the Midwest began going off line or switching to natural gas in 2008, responding to market forces and regulatory and industry curbs on emissions. The relatively quick level of improvement came as a surprise, Stony Brook’s Nicholas Fisher, study co-author, told Scientific American."

https://www.pressherald.com/2016/12...ed-plants-have-made-gulf-of-maine-tuna-safer/

Too bad the paper only can "suggest" a possible link. The largest contributor to mercury in apex predator fish, is it's age and weight, because it consumes more other fish over the years. The small reduction over the 8 year sampling of 1292 fish is insignificant, and well within the noise margin considering measurements were 0.25 to 3.15 mg kg–1. Also note that significant changes in atmospheric levels are not reflected in the fish.

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I completely agree with this.

The alarmists amaze me with they pseudo logic. They criticize us when we build with the best technology for emission reductions, and then champion China for planing to build hundreds of new dirty coal plants because the decided to build a few less.

Seems rather idiotic to me, but then look at the kooks we are referring to...

I don't agree with us shipping coal all the way to China. The transportation cost and energy wasted is ridiculous. Now here in PA where we still have literally mountains of coal that have already been dug out of the ground not using it is stupid. The coal had too much rock in it to be useable years ago but today we are mixing it with the coal being dug out of the ground. New technology is allowing us to burn coal that was just thrown to the side making mountains that pollute our water. Not only are we getting energy from it but we are cleaning up a mess from when coal was the main source of fuel. My uncle spent 45 years on a loader loading train cars with coal that was dug out of the ground before he was born. There are still thousands of culm banks of coal and rock that have been dug out of the ground over a hundred years ago.

Here is a picture of one that I used to climb as kid.

culm bank.jpg
 
Such as what? By chance you're not referring to carbon-capture-and-sequestration, are you?
No, not sequestration, carbon recycling. We stop releasing new carbon, by recycling what is already there.
Surplus energy could be stored as hydrocarbon fuels, the Carbon coming from atmospheric CO2.
When the man made fuel is naturally cheaper then the one made from fossil oil,
people will buy it, and new transport emissions will drop quickly.
 
How about an actual step to replacing coal? It truly only takes one step: stop using coal.

It's not quite that simple!
If you stop expecting the lights to come on when you hit the switch,
of stop expecting your refrigerator to stay cold, or your HVAC to work, maybe, but until then,
we need a replacement ready, before we "stop using coal"!
 
I completely agree with this.

The alarmists amaze me with they pseudo logic. They criticize us when we build with the best technology for emission reductions, and then champion China for planing to build hundreds of new dirty coal plants because the decided to build a few less.

Seems rather idiotic to me, but then look at the kooks we are referring to...

Clean coal is an oxymoron.
 
It's not quite that simple!
If you stop expecting the lights to come on when you hit the switch,
of stop expecting your refrigerator to stay cold, or your HVAC to work, maybe, but until then,
we need a replacement ready, before we "stop using coal"!

I acknowledge that my earlier explication was too laconically presented. I was alluding to the principles of "goal setting 101."

Of all the steps in the process, be they steps that provide alternative energy sources or any other, the key step that hasn't yet been taken is the first one: Decide to stop using coal. Unless and until that step is taken, whether any one or any several individuals/organizations, to say nothing of a nation as a whole, replaces coal is little more than serendipity.

I know step one seems obvious, at least it does to me, given that replacing coal on the scale I believe you have in mind is much like going to the Moon. Curiously, while "step one" is among the least complicated and easiest to perform step in any process, certainly it is in the process of replacing coal, it's the one that far too many people overlook. One result of that omission is that the nature, extent and alacrity of outcome achievement suffers. To wit, if Kennedy hadn't made it a national goal and priority, there's no telling whether we'd have done.

AFAIK, however, step one in the process of achieving the outcome you've identified -- replacing coal -- has yet to be made formally, which is why I mentioned it. Yes, of course, there are subsequent steps after step one -- things like identify alternative energy sources, design, build, test and deploy alternative energy solutions, etc. -- but the fact remains that the single most important step in achieving any given outcome is to define doing so as an irrevocable goal, and in the U.S., at least, no such goal has, by leaders who can make it happen, been defined, even though some folks, maybe even leaders, have done so in an unconcerted way.
 
Clean coal is an oxymoron.

Sure, but it's a common term widely used and accepted. There is a threshold that it is below, which classifies it as clean. Is clean water 100.000000000000000% clean? Isn't that an oxymoron too? I'm surprised you care with the way you use words incorrectly.

Wait... That's your hypocrisy. I forgot some people are like that for a moment. Thank's for reminding me.

Clean coal refers to technology that reduces harmful emission outputs significantly.

Please show me where I call it "clean coal."

I have spoken of technology usage. Never implied or said it was 0 emission. I would appreciate it if you could grow up, and stop attacking people on trivial things. Why is my argument not valid that it would be a waste of money to impose stricter standards when we cannot imose these standards on the rest of the world? For it to cost us more, when all it would do is ship more industry to India, China, etc. is stupid. Now you increase their demand for energy, and they will build inferior power plants to what we would build.

Your insistence that we get rid of our coal plants that burn cleaner than the rest of the world's coal plants, would increase pollution. Not decrease it. Do you realize how short sighted your attitude is?
 
Sure, but it's a common term widely used and accepted. There is a threshold that it is below, which classifies it as clean. Is clean water 100.000000000000000% clean? Isn't that an oxymoron too? I'm surprised you care with the way you use words incorrectly.

Wait... That's your hypocrisy. I forgot some people are like that for a moment. Thank's for reminding me.

Clean coal refers to technology that reduces harmful emission outputs significantly.

Please show me where I call it "clean coal."

I have spoken of technology usage. Never implied or said it was 0 emission. I would appreciate it if you could grow up, and stop attacking people on trivial things. Why is my argument not valid that it would be a waste of money to impose stricter standards when we cannot imose these standards on the rest of the world? For it to cost us more, when all it would do is ship more industry to India, China, etc. is stupid. Now you increase their demand for energy, and they will build inferior power plants to what we would build.

Your insistence that we get rid of our coal plants that burn cleaner than the rest of the world's coal plants, would increase pollution. Not decrease it. Do you realize how short sighted your attitude is?



Clean Coal is the propaganda campaign that you are repeating.

There is a reason a lot of coal users, like power companies, switched to natural gas. Coal is a nightmare.

Now that we have a grifter for president, they are hoping to reduce emissions regs to the point where they are a joke. They want to start poisoning America again.

China is putting a massive amount of money into solar. Their plan is to eventually stop using coal. You don't have to tell me they are still building plants that use coal. They want to stop poisoning themselves, but they also don't want to commit economic suicide.

Lying liars, etc.
 
While they may not realize it a coal plant likely produces more radioactive waste than a nuclear plant.
Coal is slightly radioactive, but burning it concentrates the radiation in the ash.
Newer reactors like the liquid salt reactors can use the waste as fuel, so that to could be an option.
The bottom line is that something will need to fill the baseload gap between where we are now, and
how long it will take technology to fill the duty cycle gap with alternative power.

How about coal?? We have lots of it and with clean coal tech, it's a very viable option. Of course that would demand that people stop thinking that anthropogenic CO2 is going to destroy the world.
 
Last I checked France was very good at refining nuclear waste. Nuclear isn't something that people should be deathly afraid of and no, I wouldn't mind it in my back yard.

I grew up with the top of the cooling tower from the Trojan Nuclear Plant in my bedroom window. Trojan on the left side of the window and Mt. St Helen's on the right.
 
Solar is getting more efficient and cheaper. Batteries are getting better so it can store energy collected during sunlight hours. So that seems like the most reasonable repleacement (won't be complete obviously)

Nuclear won't happen, it gets a bad rap for the faults of older models, plus issues with the waste. Even though new technologies are efficient in reusing the fuel, the people are already negative on it and it will never happen

Yeah, lets get some more massive open pit mines going in China to mine the rare earths that high efficiency solar panels demand, along with the lead cell batteries (the only economically feasible way to store power for most people) who's manufacturing is the dirtiest process on Earth. Don't worry, all that massive environmental destruction is half a world away in a nation populated by little brown people, so who really cares as long as you can have your A/C in the summer, your electric blankie in the winter and your faux moral superiority all year long.
 
How about coal?? We have lots of it and with clean coal tech, it's a very viable option. Of course that would demand that people stop thinking that anthropogenic CO2 is going to destroy the world.
Some of it will have to be coal, of some other source of heat for the existing coal plants.
 
Not esp. convinced of that considering the region around Chernobyl.

IMO the potential is there and would be maximized if intentional.

If anyone was talking about building Soviet era nuclear power plants I would agree with you... but I don't think anyone is.

There are many, far safer, alternative nuclear reactors out there.

Thorium Salt Reactors, for example, are essentially meltdown proof as the reaction requires the thorium salt to be molten, and the fuel and the coolant are the same material, so you can't lose coolant during reaction, all that happens in such a system failure is the material solidifies and the reaction stops. Likewise you can't have a spill since the material solidifies, plugging any leak naturally.
 
If anyone was talking about building Soviet era nuclear power plants I would agree with you... but I don't think anyone is.

There are many, far safer, alternative nuclear reactors out there.

Thorium Salt Reactors, for example, are essentially meltdown proof as the reaction requires the thorium salt to be molten, and the fuel and the coolant are the same material, so you can't lose coolant during reaction, all that happens in such a system failure is the material solidifies and the reaction stops. Likewise you can't have a spill since the material solidifies, plugging any leak naturally.

It's not about the technology...no technology is completely safe from sabotage or terrorism.
 
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