• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New Research Finds Polar Bear Numbers Up 42% Since 2004 – Survival Rates Unaffected By Sea Ice Avail

Jack Hays said:
There are three data: 1955, 2015 and 2017. It is the comparison that makes the point.

Antarctic sea ice is increasing in extent. Do you conclude from that the Antarctic is growing colder?
Click to expand...

The idiotic conclusion that Arctic sea ice thickness is greater than now than it was in 1955 relies on that one single datum - a single measurement of sea ice thickness at one location in 1955. Without that datum, there is no argument at all. It would be just as stupid as saying that, for example, the UK is warmer today than it was in 1955 on the basis of a single temperature measurement taken in that year.

And no, the Antarctic sea ice is not increasing in extent.
 
Looking for the Northwest Passage used to be a good way to die. I live just outside Portland Maine, where a European shipping company is building a large shipping facility for the shipping that will be coming.

I'm 66, for most of my life, that was one of the ways you could say impossible. Now I can watch the ships coming in.
 
Surface Detail said:
The idiotic conclusion that Arctic sea ice thickness is greater than now than it was in 1955 relies on that one single datum - a single measurement of sea ice thickness at one location in 1955. Without that datum, there is no argument at all. It would be just as stupid as saying that, for example, the UK is warmer today than it was in 1955 on the basis of a single temperature measurement taken in that year.

And no, the Antarctic sea ice is not increasing in extent.
Click to expand...

"And yet, it moves." --Galileo

The data are the data. Stop trying to wish them away.


[h=1]Expanding Antarctic sea ice linked to natural variability[/h]From the NATIONAL CENTER FOR ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH/UNIVERSITY CORPORATION FOR ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH BOULDER — The recent trend of increasing Antarctic sea ice extent — seemingly at odds with climate model projections — can largely be explained by a natural climate fluctuation, according to a new study led by the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR). The…

July 4, 2016 in Antarctic, Sea ice.
 
Jack Hays said:
"And yet, it moves." --Galileo

The data are the data. Stop trying to wish them away.


[h=1]Expanding Antarctic sea ice linked to natural variability[/h]From the NATIONAL CENTER FOR ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH/UNIVERSITY CORPORATION FOR ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH BOULDER — The recent trend of increasing Antarctic sea ice extent — seemingly at odds with climate model projections — can largely be explained by a natural climate fluctuation, according to a new study led by the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR). The…

July 4, 2016 in Antarctic, Sea ice.
Click to expand...

That was 2016, two years ago. Let's have a look at some more recent data, shall we:

arctic-antarctic-anomaly-trend-1978-2017.png


As you can see, Antarctic sea ice extent has dropped dramatically over the past couple of years. No prizes for guessing why your favourite spoof science site has gone all quiet about Antarctic sea ice extent since 2016!

Source: http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/sotc/sea_ice.html
 
late said:
Looking for the Northwest Passage used to be a good way to die. I live just outside Portland Maine, where a European shipping company is building a large shipping facility for the shipping that will be coming.

I'm 66, for most of my life, that was one of the ways you could say impossible. Now I can watch the ships coming in.
Click to expand...

1, It has got a bit warmer.

2, The modern ice breakers are very good.

3, This is a good thing.

4, It has been just as ice free before.
 
Surface Detail said:
That was 2016, two years ago. Let's have a look at some more recent data, shall we:

arctic-antarctic-anomaly-trend-1978-2017.png


As you can see, Antarctic sea ice extent has dropped dramatically over the past couple of years. No prizes for guessing why your favourite spoof science site has gone all quiet about Antarctic sea ice extent since 2016!

Source: SOTC: Sea Ice | National Snow and Ice Data Center
Click to expand...

Actually, WUWT covered it quite well, including posting the papers to explain the temporary loss -- which did not reverse the overall growth trend nicely illustrated by your graph..

[FONT=&quot]Antarctic Sea Ice Extent – 15% or Greater[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) – Click the pic to view at source​
[/FONT]
 
Jack Hays said:
Actually, WUWT covered it quite well, including posting the papers to explain the temporary loss -- which did not reverse the overall growth trend nicely illustrated by your graph..

[FONT=&quot]Antarctic Sea Ice Extent – 15% or Greater[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) – Click the pic to view at source​
[/FONT]
Click to expand...

WUWT doesn't explain anything well. It's a spoof science website!

Anyway, what makes you think the loss is temporary? As the graph you have posted shows, the Antarctic sea ice extent remains below its 1981 - 2010 average. The loss is ongoing. It is simply not true to claim that Antarctic sea ice extent is increasing.
 
Surface Detail said:
WUWT doesn't explain anything well. It's a spoof science website!

Anyway, what makes you think the loss is temporary? As the graph you have posted shows, the Antarctic sea ice extent remains below its 1981 - 2010 average. The loss is ongoing. It is simply not true to claim that Antarctic sea ice extent is increasing.
Click to expand...

The trend line is up, and the loss was attributed to transitory phenomena.
 
Surface Detail said:
WUWT doesn't explain anything well. It's a spoof science website!

Anyway, what makes you think the loss is temporary?
Click to expand...

AGU: Extraordinary storms caused massive Antarctic sea ice loss in 2016

From the “well, if hadn’t been that it would have been global warming for sure” department: By Lauren Lipuma, AGU A series of unprecedented storms over the Southern Ocean likely caused the most dramatic decline in Antarctic sea ice seen to date, a new study finds. Antarctic sea ice – frozen ocean water that rings…

By Lauren Lipuma, AGU
A series of unprecedented storms over the Southern Ocean likely caused the most dramatic decline in Antarctic sea ice seen to date, a new study finds.
Antarctic sea ice – frozen ocean water that rings the southernmost continent – has grown over the past few decades but declined sharply in late 2016. By March of 2017 – the end of the Southern Hemisphere’s summer – Antarctic sea ice had reached its lowest area since records began in 1978.
In a new study, scientists puzzled by the sudden ice loss matched satellite images of Antarctica with weather data from the second half of 2016 to figure out what caused so much of the ice to melt. They found that a series of remarkable storms during September, October and November brought warm air and strong winds from the north that melted 75,000 square kilometers (30,000 square miles) of ice per day. That’s like losing a South Carolina-sized chunk of ice every 24 hours. . . .

 
Jack Hays said:
The trend line is up, and the loss was attributed to transitory phenomena.
Click to expand...

It's good to see you've at last discovered the significance of trend lines. You might want to reconsider your oft-repeated claims that global temperature is falling in that light :lol:

You might also wish to consider the errors associated with those trend lines. While global temperature is unmistakeably rising and Arctic sea ice extent is unmistakeably falling, the trend in Antarctic sea is much less distinct. The general consensus is that melting land ice from the continent of Antarctica has decreased the salinity of the surrounding seas, thus making them easier to freeze and has thus far countered the effect of higher temperatures on sea ice extent. Of course, this effect will be temporary, and scientists have been expecting Antarctica sea ice extent to eventually also begin to fall. Whether the recent record lows mark the beginning of this fall remains to be seen.
 
Surface Detail said:
It's good to see you've at last discovered the significance of trend lines. You might want to reconsider your oft-repeated claims that global temperature is falling in that light :lol:

You might also wish to consider the errors associated with those trend lines. While global temperature is unmistakeably rising and Arctic sea ice extent is unmistakeably falling, the trend in Antarctic sea is much less distinct. The general consensus is that melting land ice from the continent of Antarctica has decreased the salinity of the surrounding seas, thus making them easier to freeze and has thus far countered the effect of higher temperatures on sea ice extent. Of course, this effect will be temporary, and scientists have been expecting Antarctica sea ice extent to eventually also begin to fall. Whether the recent record lows mark the beginning of this fall remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

Recent global cooling marks an actual turning point because it signals the exposure of CO2 driven warming for the misattribution of cause that it is. Antarctic sea ice extent will resume growth for the same reason: global cooling.
 
Jack Hays said:
Recent global cooling marks an actual turning point because it signals the exposure of CO2 driven warming for the misattribution of cause that it is. Antarctic sea ice extent will resume growth for the same reason: global cooling.
Click to expand...

Your opinion is based on wishful thinking, not evidence.

In the real world, everybody knows that the modest fall in global temperature over the last 18 months or so simply marks the end of the last El Nino. This was entirely expected. The underlying trend is still very obviously upwards.
 
late said:
Jack was shoveling crap, like he always does.

That was a million years before humans showed up.
Click to expand...

During many of those million years whilst the Polar bears did fine there was no ice on the Arctic ocean during summer.
 
Tim the plumber said:
During many of those million years whilst the Polar bears did fine there was no ice on the Arctic ocean during summer.
Click to expand...

So many ways to lie.

Ice loss is going on across the planet, in the Arctic, the Antarctic, the Himalayas, Europe, America, and Siberia.

Climate research never said it would be everywhere, quite the opposite.

So the cherry picking is a lie, one that is silly, blatant, and classic propaganda.

So while biologists are freaking out, oil company trolls cherry pick their lies.
 
Tim the plumber said:
During many of those million years whilst the Polar bears did fine there was no ice on the Arctic ocean during summer.
Click to expand...

These people don't think logically. Polar Bears do better without ice. Why? Because it is bad for seals.

When seals are lounging way out on an ice shelf, escape from a polar bear is as quick as rolling over into the water where the bear can't hope to keep up. When there is less ice, and seals lounge on shore, they can't simply roll into the water to escape, they have to waddle out until the water is deep enough to swim.

Less ice, easier seal hunting.

But leave it to the "never say die, never think things through spirit of"* the Catastrophic Global Warming Cartel to select the exactly wrong poster child for their movement....


* - Thank you, the Simpsons
 
Surface Detail said:
It's good to see you've at last discovered the significance of trend lines. You might want to reconsider your oft-repeated claims that global temperature is falling in that light :lol:

You might also wish to consider the errors associated with those trend lines. While global temperature is unmistakeably rising and Arctic sea ice extent is unmistakeably falling, the trend in Antarctic sea is much less distinct. The general consensus is that melting land ice from the continent of Antarctica has decreased the salinity of the surrounding seas, thus making them easier to freeze and has thus far countered the effect of higher temperatures on sea ice extent. Of course, this effect will be temporary, and scientists have been expecting Antarctica sea ice extent to eventually also begin to fall. Whether the recent record lows mark the beginning of this fall remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

Have you any idea as to the ratio of ice melt to the refreshment rate of circulated water in the upper layers of the Southern ocean?

Then consider the tiny change in this tiny ratio.

Then consider the despiration needed to grsp for this straw by those who's grant money demands they don't rock the boat.
 
late said:
So many ways to lie.

Ice loss is going on across the planet, in the Arctic, the Antarctic, the Himalayas, Europe, America, and Siberia.

Climate research never said it would be everywhere, quite the opposite.

So the cherry picking is a lie, one that is silly, blatant, and classic propaganda.

So while biologists are freaking out, oil company trolls cherry pick their lies.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that;

1, The Arctic ocean has never been ice free during the time of Polar bears being around?

2, That I have lied in this somehow?

3, That I am somehow a paid for troll or whatever?

or

4, All of the above?
 
jmotivator said:
These people don't think logically. Polar Bears do better without ice. Why? Because it is bad for seals.

When seals are lounging way out on an ice shelf, escape from a polar bear is as quick as rolling over into the water where the bear can't hope to keep up. When there is less ice, and seals lounge on shore, they can't simply roll into the water to escape, they have to waddle out until the water is deep enough to swim.

Less ice, easier seal hunting.

But leave it to the "never say die, never think things through spirit of"* the Catastrophic Global Warming Cartel to select the exactly wrong poster child for their movement....


* - Thank you, the Simpsons
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification.

It’s always nice to have a denier who’s read about six paragraphs in his life on the subject contradict scientists who have devoted their lives to studying the issue.
 
Threegoofs said:
Thanks for the clarification.

It’s always nice to have a denier who’s read about six paragraphs in his life on the subject contradict scientists who have devoted their lives to studying the issue.
Click to expand...

LOL. Your blind defense of indefensible dogma is noted and expected.

You didn't need to further tarnish your image past your initial those-Damned-lying-Inuits! response. You hit bottom there so further digging doesn't change your image.
 
Surface Detail said:
Your opinion is based on wishful thinking, not evidence.

In the real world, everybody knows that the modest fall in global temperature over the last 18 months or so simply marks the end of the last El Nino. This was entirely expected. The underlying trend is still very obviously upwards.
Click to expand...

"Everybody knew" Ptolemy was right and Copernicus was wrong.
 
Jack Hays said:
It is not unusual for adherents of a receding paradigm to grasp at any excuse to explain away data that misbehave.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? The data are entirely as expected. Everybody predicted that the temperature would fall again after the 2016 El Nino, and that is exactly what happened. No data misbehaved!
 
Surface Detail said:
What are you talking about? The data are entirely as expected. Everybody predicted that the temperature would fall again after the 2016 El Nino, and that is exactly what happened. No data misbehaved!
Click to expand...

I will not disturb your fantasy world.:roll:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom